This poster on a defunct forum claims to have had connections to the case via her dad's friendship with Vince Bugliosi, and posted this re Gibbie:
Peter Sr.
immediately became suspicious of the new man in his daughter's life,
after all he was an immigrant who had only been in the US for a very
short time and seemed to have neither ambition nor money.
What many do not know is that from very early on in their relationship, Peter
Sr. had all of Gibbie's and Voytek's comings and goings monitored.
Peter Sr. had an investigative and security team which could put the CIA
and FBI to shame. In fact, both of these teams were made up of
former members of these institutes and of the Secret Service as well as
other high-ranking retired military men. His legal team was beyond
reproach as well.
Needless to say, Gibbie was on a much shorter
leash than she believed she was. And the heat on she and Voytek only
increased with their move to California. Peter did not approve of Voytek
whom he saw as an opportunistic cad who was riding on Gibbie's
financial coattails.
This being said, Peter Sr. did have Voytek
extensively investigated and traced his whereabouts in the US prior to
meeting Gibbie and throughout Europe. Unfortunately, for those tin-foil
hat wearers, Peter Sr. was only able to find out that Voytek was a
deadbeat dad and husband having left behind in Poland both a wife and
son who were barely getting by while he was flitting around Abigail's
fortune. He also found out that although Voytek was a drug user, and a
sometimes seller of the stuff, he was not a dealer of any notability.
It
has been said that Voytek didn't want to marry Gibbie because of her
money. That's total BS. He would have jumped at the chance at marrying
her had it been possible. But it couldn't, because, #1 he was married
already, and #2 Peter Sr. was in the process of putting in place an
iron-clad pre-nup should the event ever occur. There was no way Voytek
was ever going to inherit a penny from Abigail other than what she
willingly gave him while alive.
Abigail was watched the entire time she was living in LA. ...
Peter
Sr. had people stationed in LA who reported back to him regularly about
Abigail's whereabouts. I do know that he was concerned about the
frequency of her visits with her psychiatrist. He was afraid that this
information would get into public hands and that Abigail would be
perceived as "unstable". Back then, seeing a shrink wasn't nearly as
accepted as it is today. There was a definite stigma associated with it.
As
far as Voytek was concerned, he was definitely low-level when it came
to drug-selling. Peter thought him to be dangerous to Abigail not so
much because of who he would expose her to, but rather because he could
provide her with drugs that she could become dependent on. He was
suspicious of Jay too but not for the same reasons. Abigail had asked
her father to look into investing in Sebring International. Jay was not a
great businessman. His forte was PR and the actual artistry of the cut.
When he died he was in debt, not to drug dealers but to creditors. He
tried to expand too much and too quickly and this is what Peter was wary
of.
Peter Sr. was an incredible businessman and he did question
Abigail's judgment in investing in Jay's company even though the amount
of her investment was negligible. He was looking into Sebring
International's fiscal viability at the time of the murders. I doubt he
would have invested had that night not happened because Jay had bitten
off more than he could chew.
I will say that Jay's investors were
all legit. There was not money laundering within his business nor were
there any sketchy shareholders. This was all confirmed via investigation
by the DA's office.
----------------------------
Thoughts? It sounds realistic, imo.
23 comments:
According to Anthony DiMaria in Part 2 of his Paulcast interview, Jay was worth some $338,000 at the time of his death, and most certainly not in debt.
I have not seen one credible source ever verifying that Abigail was followed by anyone--either in New York or L.A. In fact, her stepmother (the young woman Mr Folger Sr married) said in a newspaper article that she and the family were basically unaware of Abigail's situation while in L.A. However, no doubt her birth mother was probably quite aware of it. Indeed, we know that Mrs Folger phoned Abigail at Cielo about 10:00pm on Friday August 8th.
Exactly. Abigail wasn’t as close to her father and stepmother as she was to her mother. They didn’t have a clue that she was staying at Cielo.
When looking at her estate when it was filed after death, we can see that her investment in Sebring paid off.
I’m working on something that people have overlooked about the “10pm call”
Somewhere, I read speculation that someone unconnected with the Manson party was watching the house on Cielo on the night of the murders. Does anyone else recall that speculation?
@James D. Would it be in reference to the time zone Mrs Folger was in?
Are you thinking of Doris Tate's claim that Cielo Dr was being watched prior to the murders? Or are you thinking of Reeve Whitson's claim that he was at Cielo that night before the bodies were discovered?
Thanks Starviego,
I think it was the latter. I'll try to check them both out and see if either looks like the one I remember.
Yes. But don’t want to give away too much of my information
No problem. Years ago I noticed something but never expressed it.
More utterly useless speculation from starviego that has never been supported by any facts.
@SixtiesRockRules!
This is not an article written by Starviego. This is a repost of a 13 year old article written by Martine. What isn’t clear is weather she received this information directly or indirectly from Bugliosi. The original discussion is an interesting read. Notice the original title.
https://web.archive.org/web/20150306063106/http://truthontatelabianca.com/threads/maybe-something-new-maybe-not.5232/
@Tab....starviego might not be the original author, granted, but he nonetheless thought this useless speculation worthy to dredge up and showcase here as valuable information.
I view any speculation that Abigail Folger was being watched by private investigators hired by her father as in the realm of the plausible. There's the "possible/plausible/probable" triad that I use when evaluating indirect, implied, potential evidence. Much of his stuff has been mired resolutely in the "possible" stage, seldom advancing to "plausible".
This is a big step in re-establishing his personal credibility when compared to a lot of his other speculations.
I believe that he has good intentions. He's just too credulous for my tastes.
"Good intentions" are no longer sufficient credentials, not in my book anyway. Back in the 1970s, and maybe even the 1980s, one could bring nothing to the Manson table but speculation and guesswork and still be thought of as a "credible journalist". Not anymore. Said it before but it bears repeating: this case has been littered with the "work product" of amateur sleuths for too many years. What is very much needed now are cold, hard facts, NOT more hypotheses from attention-whores and egomaniacs.
Shoegazer - so you’re the self appointed judge and jury on the “personal credibility” of posters on here are you?!! I’m sure Starviego is incredibly relieved that you’ve deigned him/her worthy of your approval with such a ringing endorsement - you clearly being the expert arbiter on such things of course. Omg!
Shouldn't be needed, I agree, but this site seems to draw a lot of the most thrill-seeking conspiracy theorists; they want the imagined relationships and motivations to be straight our of a soap opera, and are willing to believe whatever implausible speculation that comes their way as if it was a near certainty. Just so long as it supports their pet theories, which are usually in the nature of paranoid conspiracies.
At first they seemed very obvious and I thought that most readers would recognize this easily, but over time it seemed otherwise.
I mean he's not malicious or duplicitous--basically a decent person who believes in evil fairies.
And really, for all know *for sure*, there may be these evil fairies. But it's not the way to bet, as I see it.
@shoegazer.......whether starviego is being willfully malicious or not is irrelevant. He's peddling BS and wasting the time of every reader of this blog, either newbie or longtime student of TLB.
Starviego said:
“Thoughts? It sounds realistic, imo. “
I think most of what is said in the article is plausible, but I would describe or interpret a couple of things differently.
I believe: Sebrings investors were legit; Peter Folger would have considered Jay’s business to be a bad investment (as would Buffet or any conservative investor); Peter Folger would have considered VF to be a bum; VF was small time dealing in drugs; there would have been concern for AF seeing a shrink and her getting hooked on drugs and in over her head.
Most people exaggerate when describing things. Their resumes and their descriptions of their children’s academic and/or athletic abilities are very exaggerated. Not everyone is in the top 5-10%.
I believe AF was being periodically monitored and not being watched 24-7 by a dream team of investigators. Peter Folger would have hired seasoned retired LAPD, retired State Police, and retired military; guys in their 40s and 50s with small pensions. These guys were not James Bond, Jason Bourne, or the Mission Impossible team, but more like Jim Rockford and would have worked part-time. Recording license plates, DMV checks, LE background checks, and talking to people on the streets. A lot of the monitoring would have been done by leaving some cash and the PI’s number to call. Someone who would have worked near the shrink (and near her workplace) would have kept tabs on AF and called the PI. The liquor store would have called the PI when larger purchases were made. The same for the caterer. The only practical watching of Cielo would have been at the bottom of the hill to see what cars come and go. Parties and Friday and Saturday nights would have been good times to watch. I don’t think there were people in the bushes watching with binoculars or telescopes or large lensed cameras.
VF would have been difficult to background check with Poland being behind the Iron Curtain. People in the USA, such as Jerzy and Witold, would have likely provided background info. VF would have been followed from time to time. If they found him to really be up to no good, I think they would have put him on a boat back Europe.
In recent times I’ve known parents to monitor their college age kids by using the “find a phone” app. They know when their kids leave campus and feel comfortable when they return. One women knew something was wrong when she monitored the number of swipes for food her son was using. He was ditching school and the semester was a total loss.
A lot of PI and agency work is boring. Watching nothing, following procedure, and filing reports.
If anyone was watching AF or Cielo it would have been someone on Peter Folgers payroll.
As I think about it, these scenarios where Folger was watched by investigators fired by her father, who was worried about her lifestyle, it does seem to me that these same sorts of investigators would have questioned people close to her associates, to see what sort of people they were.
This would include people like Witold-K, other Polish expats, and people close to Sebring.
If so, those same people would likely have mentioned this to the police investigators, or in some other way these private investigation-type interrogations would have come out at some point, I suspect.
This is an area I don't tend to follow. Does anyone have information that associates of Sebring, Frykowski, Polanski, etc., were questioned by private investigators?
PF was not clueless about AF. One week after Cielo, Jerry Cohen wrote:
“Miss Folger’s parents, Mr. and Mrs. Peter Folger of Woodside, confirmed Friday that their daughter had met Frokowsky in New York City, that they had been dating and that they had been staying, at the Tate-Polanski residence.
Both said they had no indication that Miss Folger was using “hard” drugs, but the father said she “may have” smoked marijuana.
However, both acknowledged they could be unaware of certain aspects of her life.”
Ed Sanders mentions the Peter Folger, Roman Polanski, and the DA hired private investigators after the murders. I don’t recall reading anything other than Martine’s article saying that PI’s were used before the murders.
There were a couple of hundred interviews after the murders. Witold K was a major source of telling of VF’s drug use and his acquaintance s. Many of these interviews are supposed to be part of “Addendum #9” which I have never seen.
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