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| Terry Melcher |
A number of sources do suggest that very thing:
Death to Pigs, by Hendrickson pg501 Bugliosi interview by Merrick.
Bugliosi: "I'm
the one that put Manson inside the gates of the Tate residence. I put
him in there, not on the night of the murders, but a couple of nights
earlier."
Manson's Right Hand Man Speaks Out by Charles "Tex" Watson, c.2001 pg43
It's believed that Manson was at the house looking for Terry the night before the murders and was offended by the new occupants.
LINK Grimtraveller said: "Back in 2005 on Col Scott's site, someone called GLH said that he'd spoken with Tex the month before and this is what Tex had told him "Manson had been to Cielo the night BEFORE the murders". I debated that with him, saying I'd heard that Manson had been there in March '69. He stood firm on his claim that Manson was there on August 7th (in the evening). ...and Manson was agitated the next day"
LINK Jay Sebring’s business partner Jim Markham:
"I believe Manson had gone up to the house” — Polanski was away shooting a movie — “and Manson wanted to sell cocaine and marijuana,” he says. “He showed Jay and Wojciech the product. They were going to buy some of it, but the two of them beat him up at the gate. The next night, Manson sent the Family up [to kill them].”
Beausoleil: "He(Charlie) had been over near his [Melcher's] house and, as he said, he checked out the wires, telephone wires and the electric gates and exits from that property."
Wait... wasn't Charlie down in San Diego County on that date, bringing Stephanie Schram down to her sister's house in Jamul and having dinner there, and then sleeping on the lawn of the residence of one of Stephanie's friends? Well, that is what Bugliosi claimed. But what was that based on?
Not Charlie. He admitted going down to Jamul but didn't put a date on it.
Not Schram. She couldn't remember the date:
Helter Skelter, pg368
"Stephanie was a bit vague when it came to dates. She "thought" the day they returned to Spahn Ranch was Friday, August 8, but she wasn't sure."
Not that traffic ticket Charlie got from the Highway Patrol near Oceanside on the way down. It's never been made public.
Not Stephanie Schram's sister, identified only as "Mrs. Hartman," who allegedly claimed that Charlie told her that "people were going to be slaughtered, they'll be lying on their lawns dead." Her interview was never released.
Not Stephanie's 'friends' in San Diego on whose lawn Manson and Schram allegedly slept on, the night of Aug 7 to the morning of Aug 8. There's no evidence they were ever identified.
Though of course Schram never said anything about Charlie stopping by Cielo Dr. in the time she was with him, from her meeting him near Esalen to when they allegedly returned to Spahn, "arriving there about two in the afternoon" on Aug 8, in Bugliosi's version.
But Schram claimed it was Aug 5 when she first came to Spahn with Charlie. They had dinner there, and then in the evening drove off the ranch, but only for a couple of blocks before Charlie pulled over and they slept in the bakery truck that night. The next day, which would have been Aug 6 if Schram is right, they drove down to San Diego, spent the night, returning to Los Angeles on what would have been Aug 7. Note that during his trial Tex claimed he saw Charlie at Spahn the next morning, on Aug 8. There are now enough gaps in the timeline to make a trip to Cielo the night before very possible.
So why didn't Bugliosi use evidence of this alleged visit by Charlie up to Cielo the night before, at the trial? It would have been very incriminating to Charlie, whether the visit was to do a drug deal with Voytek, as per Markham, or to do a reconnaissance, as per Beausoleil. The only realistic scenario is that Bugliosi could not have entered this evidence without revealing the source, which might refer to the house being under surveillance before the murders, as Doris Tate claimed.
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Bugliosi apparently based his Jamul timeline solely on the traffic ticket issued by the CHP near Oceanside. From Helter Skelter, pg367-8:
"Manson... drove to San Diego... to pick up Stephanie's clothes.
Enroute, about ten miles south of Oceanside on Interstate 5, they were stopped by California Highway Patrol officer Richard C. Willis. .... The date was Thursday, August 7, 1969; the time 6:15P.M. The ticket, which (LAPD Sgt.)Patchett and (LAPD Sgt.)Gutierrez found, proved Manson was in Southern California the day before the Tate murders."
Bugliosi is quite explicit on the time and date of the ticket. Yet he only implies--but does not explicitly state--that this was on the way to San Diego(in the southbound lanes of I-5), but what if it was while on their way back from San Diego(in the northbound lanes of I-5)? That would allow Charlie to make it to LA in time for an evening trip to Cielo Dr. the day before the murders.
Listening to the recorded interview with the butler, the only time mentioned is 11pm, when the group finishes their dinner. Thus they probably would have arrived at the Sebring house that night between 9-10pm. This timeline is roughly consistent with Manson's alleged trip up to Cielo Dr., with a subsequent angry or even violent encounter with Jay and Voy as per the account of Markham, at around 8:30 to 9:30pm on Aug 7.
Jay Sebring's Cut Wires Video
In Helter Skelter, Bugliosi implied the immediate precipitater to TLB was Charlie's anger for being snubbed by the audience at Esalen several days before. But the idea of Charlie being slapped around or disrespected at Cielo, just hours before a first murder attempt at Sebring's house, is a far more realistic proposition, IMO.
So what did Charlie do? Did he race back to Spahn, quickly gather up a kill posse, and then race over to Easton Dr. to do the dirty deed, somehow knowing Jay's location and address, only to be stymied by some complicated wiring?
Or did Charlie hang around Cielo, following them in their vehicle as they left the Cielo house, all the way to Easton Dr. a mile to the north? Did he then launch a plan to mess with their minds by cutting some of the wiring on their house? This would explain why none of the other family members ever mentioned this foray to Jay's house the night before. They didn't know about it. And if Schram was told to stay in the bread truck while Charlie walked up to the Sebring house, all she would know is that Charlie parked on some dark residential street somewhere and that Charlie walked off and didn't return for about half an hour.
Bugliosi claimed that Manson slapped Schram after being snubbed by the Esalen audience. Schram claims Charlie slapped her for messing up the chance to get a free meal, even before they went to Esalen. I speculate that was just a cover for Charlie slapping Schram after he was dissed by the Cielo residents, and before the wires were cut. Manson was so angry he couldn't control himself. IMO only!
--The credit card slips used at the four gas stations where Charlie got gas on the way to and from Esalen.
Aaron Stovitz to Rolling Stone
DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AARON STOVITZ: You see, Manson has an alibi right up until August 7th, 'cause he met this girl, and he, uh, drove with her from Big Sur all the way down to Oceanside. And they made gas purchases on these stolen credit cards all the way down the line.
Helter Skelter, pg366-8
Aug 3 - "...sometime between seven and eight(am)(Manson) purchased gas at a station in Canoga Park, using a stolen credit card.
"On August 4, Manson, still using a stolen credit card, purchased gas at Lucia. ... he did it again the next day."
"...Manson left Big Sur on August 6, making gas purchases the same day at San Luis Obispo and Chatsworth..."
[And presumably any credit card slips on any gas purchases made on the way to and from San Diego.]
--The front desk register at Esalen, and any witnesses to Charlie's presence there.
--The people who encountered Charlie and Stephanie in San Diego. Meaning Schram's sister and the people at the house where they spent the night
--The CHP ticket given to Charlie near Oceanside.
Plenty of evidence, but all of it has been kept from the public eye! So there was definitely a cover-up going on. The only reason for this has to be that none of it is in accord with Bugliosi's own timeline.
15 comments:
Thought provoking, thanks! I live in San Luis Obispo. Does anyone know the address of where Manson got gas here?
I have a couple of comments regarding the events that occurred at Sebrings house.
First, a form of Cable TV began in the 1950’s as a niche business. Some people could not get OTA reception of the 3 major TV networks because the lived in a canyon or valley or on the wrong side of a hill; there were obstacles between the TV transmitter tower and the home antenna. Some people could get reception with “rabbit ears” and some, like the Flintstone’s could get reception with a roof mounted antenna - but some could not get any TV reception.
The niche business was to install a tower on a hill. The tower would have a reception antenna mounted at the top. By using high quality shielded twisted pair cable, and renting utility pole space, the shielded twisted pair cable would be run to homes providing access to the 3 networks.
A second reason for this business was to provide reception of other TV channels from another market or independent stations.
I know of this form of Cable TV to still be in use in Pennsylvania about ten years ago in various camping cottages.
Note, the shielded twisted pair cable would look similar to phone lines.
Second, regarding the “state-of-the-art” (remote) control system(s).
Popular Mechanics was a magazine that you would commonly see in a barber shop back in the 1960s. It contained numerous articles describing various projects for the hobbyist, tinkerer, nerd; anyone curious about how things work or looking for solutions. This magazine had articles describing control systems, some of which were referred to as remote-control; but they still required wire.
A lot of these control systems used low-voltage wire similar to phone lines and used relays as switches to turn things on and off. Relays switches come in a couple of flavors: normally open (off) and normally closed (on). If you think about an alarm security system, you want the alarm to turn on when the circuit is broken or open.
So the lights coming on when a wire is cut makes sense if the control circuit was implemented similar to this. You could have also used transistors to implement the circuit switches, but I think it was less probable.
I doubt that there was any breaks in the power lines coming from the utility poles. The power lines coming from the utility pole consists of three wires: 2 110-120V hots and 1 neutral. They are connected to the house wiring before the meter using special connectors that can be thought of a a combination lug connector (like your battery) and a wire-nut. To install or remove the connector you need a special tool/wrench.
If you disconnect one of the hots then about half of your circuits (lights/plugs) wont work. If you disconnect the neutral certain low resistance appliances may be damaged. I doubt this occurred.
Where either of these things occurred as I described, I don’t know. But I think they could have or something very close.
I have never had a copy of “Death To Pigs” and my thoughts concerning that book are based on information provided by those that have and by my reading RH’s comments on this site. I don’t think of RH as a researcher but as an entertainer. For the trial Bugliosi only presented what was needed to gain convictions. For the book Bugliosi was interested in selling books and patting himself on the back. The whole truth was not his concern for the trial or the book. To me Bugliosi appears to emphasize that drugs were not part of the motive for the killings at Cielo. He also over emphasizes the “Helter Skelter” motive. It would have been very difficult to prove that Manson was at Cielo on 8-7 to sell drugs to VF and JS. It was easy to prove that Manson spoke to many people of the “confusion” known as “Helter Skelter”. Manson may have been at Cielo on 8-7, but Bugliosi wanted no part of that.
If DebS or cielodrive.com were to post a copy of the 8-7-69 ticket there still would be doubt as to did the officer make a clerical error and get the date and/or time wrong.
I’m not someone who embraces technology. I recently bought a device and charged it and after powering it on it said I must connect to the Internet. Since I have no Internet access I went to the library and for 2 hours there was downloading, installing and rebooting. The device said it was Thursday even though it was Wednesday. Dates and times get messed up all the time.
If the ticket and date are valid, then Manson was at that place at that time. If he was heading south he could have turned around and headed back north or he could have headed north a few hours later.
Meeting with JS and VF late on 8-7 or more likely early 8-8 was easier time wise than being present at Sebrings.
? For Shoegazer, how long would it take to drive from San Diego to LA in 1969 during rush hour?
What happened at Sebrings could be a messing with your mind trick (cut the wires to the technology you’ve been bragging about) or a fluke such as the new cables were installed very tight and they snapped because of a falling limb or swaying pole, or a passing truck, …., nah.
If VF and JS did meet Manson and cross him, then there would be a motive for Manson wanting revenge. It makes more sense than HS. I can say this even though I am not convinced that Manson had anything to do with Tate and that was Watson’s show.
Star, thanks for this post. I have often thought about the wire at Jay's. Also, TorF, yes, most homes of that era had the three wire electrical service coming off from a power pole, typically in the rear of a property, then connecting to an electrical mast on the house, then down the inside of the mast to the breaker. Nowadays of course most electrical services, phone lines, and cable TV/ internet drops are buried, and in the case of the TV/internet, will enter the house on the nid box on the outside of the house.
A few thoughts:
Manson was indeed known to be at Cielo in March of 1969, looking for Terry Melcher, but finding Altobelli instead. There is no indication Manson was there at that time to sell drugs. That said, what is the likelihood that Manson returned to Cielo in early August, when he knew Melcher did not live there, to sell drugs to someone he did not presumably know. If Manson did know Jay or Voytek, we need to determine when he originally met them.
We do know Manson was highly agitated in the first week of August, and as Greg Jacobsen said, "the electricity was just pouring out of him." To be sure, Manson and the Family needed money--lots of money--to get to the desert. We also know this is exactly what Tex demanded when he attempted to rob those at Cielo before killing them. When asked by either Abigail or Sharon how much money he wanted, Tex said, "we want thousands!"
To me, Manson's attempt to sell what may have been a small amount of coke and weed would probably not have netted him much cash, and certainly not thousands. Also, Bill Garretson and at least one of the gardeners were at Cielo on the night of August 7th, but they did not report seeing Manson on the premises. Of course, if Manson was there they may not have seen him.
On the traffic ticket: can it be located?
The story Manson told Mrs Hartman about bodies lying dead on the lawn: was this before or after the alleged beating of Manson by Jay and Voytek at Cielo? I always thought this was a general description of Helter Skelter to the family of Stephanie, which was to come about one day, due to the tension and confusion between the races, localized of course in Beverly Hills in at least this instance.
On the traffic ticket: Bugliosi does indeed use it in his narrative as a very important piece of evidence. In fact, he brings it up at Tex Watson's trial on the whereabouts of Manson just prior to the Cielo murders. He cross examines Tex, then said, "suppose I were to tell you that Charles Manson was not even in Los Angels then." At which point Watson's attorney objected.
Doris Tate believed Cielo was under surveillance. But do we know why and by whom?
If the wire Greenwold installed had been recently cut, can we determine exactly how this was accomplished? Greenwold said his wire connected to the house right where other utility lines entered. He goes on to say in the interview(if I am hearing him correctly) that someone was "cutting everything going into the house." If true, it would appear to me to be a haphazard and dangerous way of cutting off power or communication to the house. Do we know if LAPD took a picture of this wiring?
When we consider the cutting of the phone lines at Cielo, we see that they were cut with stout wire cutters, and appeared to be thoughtfully and deliberately sought out and cut. That the electrical service was left intact at Cielo tells me that the killers were not concerned about lights on inside or outside the house.
The wire at Jay's would appear, though, to be potential evidence that demands a verdict. Pethaps like the hair ribbons, purple scarf, eyeglasses, and buck knife without prints at Cielo.
I think the odds are high that AF’s father would have had the house and her watched.
At the least he had a fiduciary duty to Folgers Inc. It’s best to know about things before bad news gets out so that you can provide a statement or defense to counter attack.
If he was a caring parent he would have hurt when she hurt or faltered. AF being with VF was probably better than AF being with someone like Manson but I don’t know how any parent would have approved - but what can you say? Especially to a 26 year old college graduate.
If you had the means of Mr. Folger would you have her watched?
Jamul or San Diego, proper? I assume to Cielo.
Best guess for former, normal rush hour, 3 hours; the latter, same assumption, 2.5 hours.
Why would Bugliosi have gone to all the trouble of fudging the timeline? Logically, he did not want to have to answer the question of exactly where Charlie was, and what was he doing, from about 8pm on the 7th of Aug to 2pm on the 8th, when Bugs claimed that Charlie and Stephanie showed up at the ranch.
Speqking to the idea of Manson trying to sell drugs to Frykowski and Sebring on the 7th, I'd like to inquire: was Manson himself known to sell drugs in any significant way?
I can see him as having access to drugs, giving drugs away to purchase favors, but was he known to sell drugs to raise money between the time he was released from prison and his arrest for the TLB murders?
I am with Torque on this one: if Manson knew Melcher no longer lived at Cielo, then why return in August? Is there any evidence JS or VF knew him or other Family members? If Jay was wanted to score drugs, surely a celebrated hair stylist had easy access to dealers that were of a higher caliber than Manson and his scraggly gang
Shoegazer, I know of nothing definitive that shows Manson being a drug dealer. Some say thats why he was frequently traveling around.
At the end of July DebS posted an article that contains a PDF regarding the Spahn Ranch Raid,
(see page 5).
https://www.mansonblog.com/2024/07/cleaning-up-some-missing-pages-from.html?m=1
There is a report by Gleason on 8-7 that an informer says that Manson is supposed to be in SF and will return to Spahn on 8-8. Manson is supposed to be in possession of a large amount of narcotics. The informant wrongly describes the vehicle Manson is driving and who is supposed to be with him.
It’s enough to fuel some stories.
Thanks very much!
Jenn, I lived in Grover City/Arroyo Grande starting in summer '71 until summer '83 and went to Cal Poly while I was there, in the early 70s.
Needless to say, I preferred to be in SLO Town as much as possible and am familiar with how it was until the mid 80s.
I never thought about it too much, but am now wondering where Beausoleil pulled off to sleep on Cuesta Grade. I was aware of some dirt road that came off at the top--my first wife was a teacher and in about 72 or so her class planted a bunch of Monterrey pines off of one of these roads, as a conservation exercise.
Living in SLO, do you have some ideas of where here probably pulled off to sleep? I'm going to assume he was headed north, so that may help, some.
Thanks in advance!
...any other input from readers is welcome.
Shoegazer, Jenn contributed a post back in 2017 giving the location of where Bobby was arrested. https://www.mansonblog.com/2017/02/manson-family-connections-to-san-luis.html
DebS & Jenn...
Thanks for the link to Jenn's 2017 post on the location of Beausoleil's arrest in SLO. Based on her descriptions I can recall what I think is the spot. I've identified the old motel (which seemed to me to be in a sort of eucalyptus grove on the right side, going north) with a yellow ellipse, and the likely turn-out (I don't recall this but turn-outs are not usually memorable, especially if they're pretty close to where you live) with a red ellipse.
Does this seem about right to you?
motel & turn-out
I don't know about the night before, but he was definitely there just after the murders
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