On August 8th 2019 the Los Angeles Times published an article for the 50th anniversary of the Tate LaBianca murders focused on the idea that members of the Family may have committed other murders. The article also talks about the Tex Tapes.
The article states that the
LAPD has 12 unsolved cases that are believed to be linked to the Family. Bare
in mind that the LAPD has jurisdiction only within the city limits of Los
Angeles. There are many cities in Los Angeles County that have their own police
departments and the unincorporated areas of Los Angeles County are served by
the Los Angeles Sheriff’s Department.
How Many More Did the Manson Family Kill?
It's an enduring murder mystery involving several slayings that fit the cult's pattern
By Richard Winton
The Manson murders mostly are remembered as two events that occurred 50 years ago this month; the killing of Sharon Tate and four others in Benedict Canyon and then the butchering of Leno and Rosemary LaBianca is Los Feliz.
But cold-case investigators and others have long believed that Charles Manson and his cult followers were responsible for many more deaths.
The Los Angeles Police Department officially has a dozen unsolved homicide cases linked to Manson. And there are additional slayings outside the jurisdiction that some believe to be the work of his “family.” Some of those ties seem more plausible than others, but all have been extensively examined and theorized — as are all things involving Manson.
The supposed suicide of one Manson follower’s boyfriend in England. The drowning of an attorney whom Manson declared during the middle of his trial he never wanted to see again. A young man killed during a game of Russian roulette with family members present. Two young women stabbed to death off Mulholland Drive and a couple of young Scientology followers who met a similar fate.
Manson “repeatedly” said many others were killed, said Cliff Shepard, a former LAPD Robbery-Homicide Division detective who worked some of those cold cases. “We may never know or identify all their victims.”
In all, Manson and his followers were convicted of nine murders — the Tate and LaBianca attacks plus the slayings of musician Gary Hinman and stuntman and ranch hand Donald “Shorty” Shea.
Dan Jenks, an LAPD Robbery-Homicide detective, said the unsolved cases still were under active investigation and that the department would not comment on specifics.
“There is no statute of limitations. We are always developing new techniques. The last 10 years, DNA has come a long way,” Jenks said. “We will stay on them and keep them as active as we can.”
The LAPD repeatedly has declined requests by the Los Angeles Times for information about those cases. But seven years ago, while seeking to obtain audiotapes of a Manson follower that detectives hoped would yield clues, the department formally declared that a dozen unsolved cases might be tied to the family.
The tapes involved conversations between convicted killer Charles “Tex” Watson and his attorney in 1969. The LAPD obtained the tapes after a legal battle, but they appeared to provide few clues. The department, however, refused a Times request to review them, citing ongoing investigations. A judge in 2017 ruled that attorneys for Manson follower Leslie Van Houten could not have the recordings as part of her efforts to gain parole.
“The thing we discovered after reviewing the tapes, there was no new information related to any of the unsolved cases,” Jenks said. The death of Manson in 2017, as well as those of other family members, has made efforts to pursue the cases harder.
Manson prosecutor Stephen Kay said he and his partner, the late Vincent T. Bugliosi, always suspected that the cult had killed others.
“I know that Manson one time told one of his cellmates that he was responsible for 35 murders,” said Kay, who has attended 60 or so parole hearings to keep those he convicted of the Manson slayings in prison. “Whether that is true or not or just jail bragging, I don’t know. We prosecuted him for nine murders, and those were all the murders we had evidence on.”
A suspicious death in London
Just months after the Tate and LaBianca murders, Joel Pugh — the 29-year-old boyfriend of Manson clan member Sandra Good — was found dead in the Talgarth Hotel in London. His wrists and throat had been cut. British authorities listed it as a suicide, saying Pugh had been depressed. No suicide note was left.
Kay and others said Manson hated Pugh. “He had no reason to commit suicide, and Manson was very unhappy that Sandy” was with Pugh, Kay said.
Manson follower Bruce M. Davis, who recently was cleared for parole after nearly 50 years in prison, was in London at the time Pugh died. Kay said that Davis, now 76, was the family member most able to kill. The prospect of his pending release — which still could be blocked by Gov. Gavin Newsom — has energized investigations during the last decade.
Davis was convicted in the killings of Hinman and Shea in 1971 and sentenced to death. When California for a time abolished the death penalty, Davis and other members of the family were given life sentences.
At a parole hearing, Davis said he hadn’t known about the Tate killings until the morning after they happened but had committed the other murders because “I wanted to be Charlie’s favorite guy.”
Deadly game of Russian Roulette
Davis also was a witness to the November 1969 death of John “Zero” Haught in Venice, according to investigators. Authorities concluded that Haught had died accidentally while playing Russian roulette with a revolver, but that finding came under question.
The gun recovered didn’t have any fingerprints on it, The Times’ Jerry Cohen reported in 1969. A young man who held Haight’s head after the shooting told Cohen he entered the room to find a female Manson follower with the gun in her hand. Several Manson followers were inside the home that night, including Davis, The Times reported.
Davis could not be reached for comment, and his attorney did not return messages.
Jane Doe 59
In his book about the Manson family murders, “Helter Skelter,” Bugliosi said he believed that a woman known for years only as Jane Doe 59 was killed because she had witnessed Haught’s killing.
She was stabbed 150 times. A bird-watcher discovered her remains on Mulholland Drive, about six miles from the Benedict Canyon home where Tate and the others were killed.
Three years ago, the LAPD identified her as 19-year-old Reet Jurvetson from Montreal, using a DNA sample from her sister. She had come to Los Angeles from Canada to join a man she had first met in a Montreal coffee shop.
“She thought he looked like Jim Morrison,” Shepard, the former LAPD detective, said.
She sent a postcard to her mother about getting an apartment in L.A. 16 days before her death.
LAPD detectives asked Manson about Jurvetson before the killer’s death. He denied knowing her.
“It was like talking to a wall,” said LAPD Robbery-Homicide Division Capt. Billy Hayes.
That Manson wouldn’t say much doesn’t surprise his son.
Manson’s son Michael Brunner told The Times recently that “Charlie lived by a code. He was an outlaw. He was not a nice guy. But he lived by a code and he was not gonna be the one that was snitching. And there was a lot of snitching going on. And the people that were snitching, you know, they say snitches get stitches.”
Shepard said much of the speculation about Jurvetson stemmed from a photo of a woman resembling her who was dancing at the family’s Spahn Ranch hangout with Manson follower Steve Dennis “Clem” Grogan. He was paroled in 1985 after being convicted of murder for his role in Shea’s death.
Grogan told detectives a few years ago that the woman was another Manson follower, not the Jane Doe, Shepard said.
Still, the LAPD has not ruled out the Manson cult in her killing.
A violent time
Complicating the effort to solve Jurvetson’s murder is the fact that the period of the late 1960s and ’70s was marked by numerous serial killers roaming California.
Sandi Gibbons, a former City News Service reporter who later served as the spokeswoman for several L.A. County district attorneys, said the area off Mulholland was a popular place for dumping bodies at the time.
On New Year’s Day 1969, the body of 17-year-old Marina Habe — who was kidnapped outside her West Hollywood home — was found less than half a mile from Jurvetson’s remains in a ravine off Mulholland Drive. Habe, the daughter of a Hollywood screenwriter, also had multiple stab wounds to her neck.
Shepard said Manson also was asked about Habe and dismissed any suggestion she was one of his crowd.
LAPD homicide detectives also saw similarities between the vicious knife attack on Jurvetson and the November 1969 killings of James Sharp, 15, of Crestwood, Mo., and Doreen Gaul, 19, from Albany, N.Y. Stabbed and beaten, their bodies were dumped in a downtown Los Angeles alley a week before the discovery of Jurvetson’s remains.
At the time, LAPD Lt. Earl Deemer described the wounds on the pair as being inflicted by a “fanatic.” Each had been stabbed 50 to 60 times. In “Helter Skelter,” Bugliosi wrote that Gaul was rumored to be a former girlfriend of Davis — who, like the dead teenagers, once was a Scientologist.
Davis had lived at the same housing complex as Gaul, but in a police interview in the 1970s he denied knowing her. Years later, another man confessed to killing the pair in a robbery but was never charged. He has since died.
Death of a lawyer
Then there was the death of Ronald Hughes.
The 35-year-old attorney strongly defended Leslie Van Houten during the family’s murder trial, seemingly at the expense of Manson.
“We recessed for the weekend, and Manson — who sat in the corner of the counsel table — pointed to Hughes and said to her attorney: ‘I don’t want to see you in this courtroom again.’ And we never saw him again,” Kay said.
In late November 1970, as the trial neared its end, Hughes disappeared. Four months later, his decomposed body turned up wedged in a rocky creek in Ventura County. Kay said Hughes was last seen swimming in the nearby hot springs right before a flash flood.
In “Helter Skelter” and in later interviews, Bugliosi suggested that Manson directed Hughes’ killing, calling it “the first of the retaliation murders.”
But Charlie Rudd, a retired Ventura County sheriff’s sergeant, told The Times in 2012 that Hughes’ death probably had nothing to do with Manson. Authorities recovered Hughes’ body near Sespe Hot Springs in the Los Padres National Forest, and Rudd said there was little evidence of foul play.
According to Rudd, the creek probably swelled dangerously and Hughes died either because he drowned or because he was battered to death by debris and rocks. “There was nothing else to indicate otherwise, and the medical examiner couldn’t come to a conclusion of anything other than that.”
Was Hughes murdered? Kay said he wasn’t so sure.
“I’m on the fence.”
(Times staff writers Maria L. La Ganga and Hector Becerra contributed to this report.)
The LA Times seems to have randomly chosen to write about deaths that have been discussed in the past as being related to the Family rather than trying to come up with a dozen deaths that would qualify as being in LAPD's jurisidiction.
The first death that the article delves into is that of Joel Pugh. The death occurred in London England. Pugh's death is certainly not in LAPD's jurisdiction. Authorities in England determined that Pugh's death was by his own hand and not a murder. It cannot be proven that Bruce Davis was in England at the time of Pugh's death. The late Simon Wells wrote an excellent piece on the death of Joel Pugh, if you haven't read it you should.
These are the letters exchanged between Inyo County, Interpol, and Scotland Yard.
John Philip "Zero" Haught's death is discussed next. This death, IMO, should never have been declared a suicide as quickly as it was. At a minimum it should have been reopened once Manson and the others were arrested for the TLB murders. LAPD wrote the police report.
Here is an excerpt from an article about the Gaul/Sharp murders that discusses Haught's death. It relates the incident written above about the young man holding Haught's head as he died.
Oddly, the unnamed young man does not appear in the police report. Linda Baldwin, Bruce Davis, Susan Bartell, and Catherine Gillies are the only ones named in the initial report. Bill Vance has also been rumored to have been at the Clubhouse Drive home at the time of Haught's death but split before the police arrived. It's not likely that Bill Vance is the unnamed young man. Mark Ross claims not to have been home when Haught was shot and he was pictured with Family members during the trial so he is not likely the young man.
Reet Jurvetson/Jane Doe 59's body was discovered November 14, 1969 off Mulholland Drive. Bugliosi claimed she was killed by the Family because she witnessed the death of John Phillip Haught. LAPD detectives had a picture that they thought was of Reet dancing with Steve Grogan on the boardwalk at Spahn Ranch. The trouble with that is the picture was a still shot that was taken from Robert Hendrickson's movie Manson. That movie sequence was not filmed until after Reet had been murdered.
The persons of interest sought by current investigators are two men named Jean who Reet followed down from Canada because she was seriously interested in one of the men. He may not have reciprocated her interest. The two men have never been located.
Marina Habe's abduction on December 30, 1968 and the subsequent finding of her body on New Year's Day is another death with a very slim connection to the Family. Sonic Youth bassist Kim Gordon in her book "Girl in a Band" tells us that her older brother Keller, once dated Marina Habe and that he knew Bobby Beausoleil who he met at a house at the bottom of Topanga Canyon.
Next up are the Doreen Gaul and James Sharp murders. As far as Manson Family involvement is concerned Bruce Davis was considered a suspect. It's rumored that Bruce Davis, for a short time, lived in the same Scientology rooming house as Doreen Gaul at 1032 Bonnie Brea in Los Angeles. There is no evidence that Bruce did live in a Scientology run rooming house/apartment after returning from the UK in April 1969. Bruce was asked to leave the Scientology quarters in the UK for drug use. I doubt that they would welcome him back on short notice.
Bruce was released from the Inyo County jail, along with Christopher Jesus, "Zero", the week prior to November 4, 1969. "Zero's" death occurred November 5, 1969. The Gaul/Sharp murders were November 21, 1969.
In September 1975 two black men were investigated for the Gaul/Sharp murders. They were James Green and Arthur Davis. Green gave a statement to a Detective Lambert of the LAPD. It was quite a detailed statement but not everything that was revealed in the police report about the condition of the bodies and facts of the crime was related by Green. The detective sent the statement the LA DA's office to hopefully get a warrant to charge the two for the murders. Deputy District Attorney Charles F. Girot declined to press charges and numerated eleven different things that needed to be investigated or cleared up before charges could be filed in a letter sent to Detective Lambert December 12, 1975.
Green's statement and the DDA's letter
A previous post with a link to the Gaul/Sharp police report.
The murders of Marina Habe, Reet Jurvetson, Doreen Gaul, and James Sharp were all within LAPD's jurisdiction. They were also very similar in that the victims died by multiple stab wounds that one would describe as "overkill".
The tragic death of Ron Hughes occurred in Ventura County. Despite what Manson said in the courtroom about not wanting to see Hughes again after the extended Thanksgiving break from the trial Hughes death was likely due to bad decisions on Hughes part. Hughes should have gone home with the young couple he came to Sespe Hot Springs with when the downpour began. Barring that he should have stayed with the car he arrived in as it was found in good shape after the rain stopped. We can't know exactly how it came to be that Hughes drowned but we can look at previous events that happened at the hot springs.
In late January of 1969 there was a torrential rain storm at Sespe that caused the death of ten persons. Because of the terrain, that area received copious amounts of runoff that flooded the creek raising the swift running water 8-10 feet above its normal levels.
Here's an article that tells of conditions at Sespe during that storm.
We have identified five murders that happened in LAPD's jurisdiction. All have tenuous links to the Family, with the exception of John Haught's death. We still have no idea of who the other seven murder victims are that the LA DA's office believes the Family could have killed.
The murder of Mark Walts could fall in that category though I've never seen a police report so I am not sure if that could have been a sheriff's case.
The blog has done stories on the deaths of Karl Stubbs, Filippo Tenerrelli, Nancy Warren and Clyda Dulaney, and Darwin Scott. Look through the tags or do a site search to find those articles.
We haven't done much on either Jane Doe. The Doe's are difficult because without knowing who they are there is no way to learn who their families and friends were. They are the very people who would be able to shed light on the deceased normal activities and know if the person was having trouble with anyone in particular.
Santa Barbara County Jane Doe was discovered near Grefco Quarry five miles south of the town of Lompoc. There was ligitimate reason to investigate Family members regarding this murder. Bobby Beausoleil drove by the turn off for the quarry on his way to the San Francisco Bay Area after the murder of Gary Hinman. Other Family members were known to frequently travel Highway 101 between the Los Angeles area and Mendocino County and points in between, including Manson.
Articles on Santa Barbara County Jane Doe.
Castaic Jane Doe was discovered in the Angeles National Forest about nine miles north of the town of Castaic located on Highway 5. Highway 5 which now runs the length of the state was being built during that time. Portions of the highway were finished including the run from Los Angeles to Bakersfield. Castaic is in Los Angeles County.
It's interesting to note that Detective Norman Lambert worked this case as well as the Marina Habe and Gaul/Sharp cases.
This is a scan of a 1970 road map showing Los Angeles at the bottom of the map. Castaic is due north of Burbank. There is a fork at San Fernando where the turn-off to Highway 14 is. Highway 14 is the route you would take to go to Barker Ranch. You can see the towns of Ridgecrest and Trona. So, Castaic is only about 15 miles out of the way if you're on your way to Barker. I'm not surprised law enforcement looked at the Family for this murder. Of course, it doesn't mean they committed it.
Articles about Castaic Jane Doe.
We have identified seven unsolved murders that were committed in Los Angeles County. What are the other five cases that LAPD believes were committed by the Family in the county? There is no shortage of murders in other jurisdictions but LAPD is the one holding onto the Tex Tapes claiming they can't release them because of the murder investigations that are still active.
What would be the harm in naming the victims in the dozen cases that LAPD deems possibly committed by Family members? Why all the secrecy? Divulging the names of the suspected victims just might result in tips that can be acted on. It's not a given that all the victims named here are among the dozen that LAPD deems to be related to the Family. We could be spinning our wheels on one or more of the cases.
Quoting from the article: Manson “repeatedly” said many others were killed, said Cliff Shepard, a former LAPD Robbery-Homicide Division detective who worked some of those cold cases. “We may never know or identify all their victims.”
Manson also allowed Family members to spread the rumor that Donald "Shorty" Shea was dismembered in nine pieces and his head was cut off. But we know that isn't true because when Shorty's remains were eventually found his skeleton was intact save one hand that was missing and believed to be the result of animal depredation. It's just as likely that Manson bragged about more victims to bolster his prison credibility.
Given the number of people who were in the Family and the number of those people who were willing tell what they knew at the time of the Barker Raid and later when the facts about the TLB murders came to light, does it make sense that none of those people after 50 years would have told authorities about any other murders the Family may have committed?
Another quote, this one about the Tex Tapes: The tapes involved conversations between convicted killer Charles “Tex” Watson and his attorney in 1969. The LAPD obtained the tapes after a legal battle, but they appeared to provide few clues. The department, however, refused a Times request to review them, citing ongoing investigations. A judge in 2017 ruled that attorneys for Manson follower Leslie Van Houten could not have the recordings as part of her efforts to gain parole.
“The thing we discovered after reviewing the tapes, there was no new information related to any of the unsolved cases,” Jenks said. The death of Manson in 2017, as well as those of other family members, has made efforts to pursue the cases harder.
Well, if there was nothing on the tapes that gave any information about other possible murders why the heck is the LAPD still hanging on to them and not releasing the tapes to the media? The whole premise for LAPD to take possession of the tapes was to hopefully gain information about other murders. What is on those tapes that LAPD feels they must keep secret? Are they protecting someone? If so, I certainly hope it's not Tex Watson.
Do the tapes contain something that could result in grounds for one or more of the convicted to have a new trial?
Do the tapes contain more information on one or more of the cases, where there was a conviction, and should have been acted on by law enforcement or the DA's office, but wasn't? Manson, Davis and Grogan were convicted of Shorty Shea's murder. Tex was also involved but not tried for the murder. There have long been rumors that Larry Bailey and Bill Vance participated in that murder but they were never charged.
Did Tex reveal something on the tapes that could put law enforcement and or the DA's office in a very bad light that could jeopardize the convictions they were able to obtain?
The whole Tex Tape situation makes it seem as if LAPD is hiding something. It's also a situation that is ripe for spawning conspiracy theories.
It's been five years since the LA Times wrote this article and nothing has changed. We would like a progress report, please.
18 comments:
" “The thing we discovered after reviewing the tapes, there was no new information related to any of the unsolved cases,” Jenks said."
Officially speaking, the deaths of Tenerelli and Haught are not 'unsolved,' as they were both ruled suicide.
Thanks DebS.
I have a number of comments.
Part 1.
Ruby Pearl was terrible with details and faces. When interviewed in the fall of 69, before the indictments, she wrongly identified “Jane Doe” as Sherry Cooper creating folklore that Sherry was dead. LE knew she was alive but let the rumor go on. Years later the Canadian TV interview dispelled the rumor.
Ruby was a witness at many trials. At one she had trouble distinguishing photos of Family members. I believe she mixed up Watkins and Beausoleil, and had trouble with some of the girls. She originally said that the last night she saw Shea that a car pulled into Spahn and Manson, Watson, Grogan, and Davis got out of a car. Also she believes she saw a shadow that resembled Vance get out of the car. In later trials she removed the Vance reference because she wasn’t sure. She also refers to the guys as either (exactly) 5 feet tall or 6 feet tall. She was very poor on attention to details, but used over and over as a prosecution witness - effectively.
Davis waffled a bit about saying that Larry Jones was present. When questioned about it a one of the later parole hearings, Davis said that he was trying to protect Larry because Larry was present but young and didn’t do anything, so he left his name out of later hearings. At one of the taped televised parole hearing Davis said that Vance was not present when Shea was killed, even though he had earlier said he was. At one of the earlier hearing he said that Vance was present on the boardwalk at Spahn and knew what was going down - before the others left with Shea.
If you believe Grogan’s story, part of the motivation for the vigilante mob action against Shea was similar to the “Ox-Bow Incident”, where they killed the wrong person.
It’s unfortunate that the cause of Haught’s death was ruled a suicide so soon without any real investigation. Shorty Shea’s death led to four trials and three convictions. Like everyone who was at Spahn, Shea was not to be looked at as a role model. He fathered at least five children to three rather young girls, two of which he was married to for a short time. Some Jamaican women would refer to him as the “sex daddy” and not the “real daddy” (who provides financial and emotional support and is a role model). Very little difference between Manson, Watson, and Shea. Shea’s death may have been his biggest contribution to society for it did lead to three convictions or people who needed to be off the streets.
Part 2
When I first read Watson’s memoir, I became curious about the tapes. I wondered what Tex forgot to say, what Tex purposely left out, whether Boyd gave the co-writer an edited or condensed version of the tapes, what Tex asked to be left out or the co-writer chose to leave out?
Also, in his memoir, there were things mentioned that could not have been known at the time the tapes were made.
If I listened to the Tapes and Tex says he was present when Shea was murdered, then we know his memoir didn’t tell us the whole story. But if he doesn’t mention Shea being killed, it doesn’t eliminate him being present.
I would like to hear them just to fill in the gaps. What went on from the time that LK arrived until the night of Tate. It would be a bonus if unsolved murders were resolved by making the Tapes public.
What are people hoping for to be released? Is it only the Tapes or also corresponding Open/Cold Case Files?
There are a lot of reasons why they may not wish to release this info.
At the least it will create work and they may be afraid that it may set a precedent for data related to Open Cases be released.
If the tapes say that LK was more involved or LVH or even Manson was less involved, they would not want that to come out. They also may not want anything else that contradicts the official narrative to come out, including a change in motive.
If the Open Case files were released, would they be redacted to protect those still alive - suspects that were eliminated or witnesses that had alibis that may hurt them today if that alibi is made public?
Closing out these open cases could potentially provide some comfort to family and friends. Making info public and asking for help may resolved some open issues. But, what are the costs? But what new problems are created?
I would (selfishly) like to know if Tex placed that beer can under the mailbox? Did he see Rosina again after Crowe? How involved was Tex in drug burns and dealing drugs?
I know of two mysteries that were resolved, not by the expected profession, but by unlikely sources.
First, in the 1960’s IBM was the biggest seller of mainframe computers. A competitor had a major sale of six mainframes to a fortune 500 company. These mainframes had the same hardware configuration and ran the same software apps. The mainframes where installed in different parts of the country and one of them encountered a number of random failures while the others ran smoothly. They swapped mainframes between the city that failed and one that never failed, but the failures remained at the same physical location. The vendor obtained identical copies of the databases and tried to stage and reproduce the failure but they were unsuccessful. A young field engineer, customer service engineer, was sent on site to babysit the system. One day he asked the janitor what he thought was happening and the janitor gave him a bizarre answer, almost like a William Castle movie. The janitor’s observation led to the problem being resolved.
Second, a young boy hears a story of multiple killings within a family that appeared to live in the same community years before he was born. Decades later he tries to find out more, but has little to go on. No name, an unknown date, and not even sure if it was the hometown or a neighboring town. The local police, historical society, the library, and a couple of dozen sharp elderly people are queried but they never heard of the incident. Before calling it quits, and heading home, he visits a somewhat slow (retarded) man he knew in his youth. He asks this man if he knew about this incident and he replied with the families name.
Tab - this 100% - "Manson was less involved"
Taborfresca wrote: Like everyone who was at Spahn, Shea was not to be looked at as a role model. He fathered at least five children to three rather young girls, two of which he was married to for a short time. Some Jamaican women would refer to him as the “sex daddy” and not the “real daddy” (who provides financial and emotional support and is a role model). Very little difference between Manson, Watson, and Shea. Shea’s death may have been his biggest contribution to society for it did lead to three convictions or people who needed to be off the streets.
I will agree that Shorty had a penchant for young girls and he was a deadbeat dad. However, I don't believe that Shorty raped any of those girls and when he learned the girls he had sex with were pregnant he married them. It's not known if Shorty knew that the third girl was pregnant with his child because he left Texas before she realized she was pregnant.
Shorty did not follow through on his committment to marriage to his detriment. But what Shorty did not do is rob, deal drugs, beat up the girls, nor kill anyone. He did not provide the backdrop for others to commit crimes along with instruction on how to commit those crimes. As far as we know he did not teach anyone how to use guns or the best way to inflict injury with a knife.
Shorty did not send anyone, whether specifically or implied, to kill others. Manson was running a criminal enterprise. Shorty was looking for a good time and not looking beyond his immediate physical needs or wants.
Shorty did not deserve to be murdered.
The 12-10-69 newspaper article by Jerry Cohen is somewhat puzzling.
Who is this young man who held Zero as he was dying?
How soon after Zero’s death did Cohen interview this young man. Was the young man telling the truth?
Was Cohen telling the truth?
Without some substantiation are we to doubt this story the way many things Tom O’Neill has written are doubted?
The articles timing couldn’t be better. There was news from the arrests, grand jury and indictments. Other than Cohen, and a couple of others, no body could have expected the “Atkins 2 nights of murder” story that would soon appear. This article helps to fuel the fire.
So who is this young man?
Was he someone who joined up in the last 2-3 weeks after some returned after the Barker arrests?
Was he someone who knew the Family but never traveled to Barker?
Was he someone who traveled to Barker but did not get arrested?
Was he someone who was arrested at Barker but released?
3 males were arrested at Barker on 10-10 but I believe they were all being held when Zero died.
6 males were arrested on 10-12 at Barker. Manson was still being held, Zero was dead, Bruce and Vance were not young and we know that Bruce was with Zero. Where Zero’s friend and Larry Jones were is unclear/unknown, but there were rather young. Possibly Zero’s friend?
If Cohen interviewed this young man in December, then how afraid was the young man? If you were afraid, would you not leave town ASAP?
If Cohen interviewed the young man soon after Zero died, Cohen wouldn’t have seen this story as newsworthy relating to Manson but as relating to young people or hippies. He could have written a basic back page story describing a shooting and a death. His editor would have wanted to know more about the source or young man before okaying a story like what was published on 12-10.
After 12-01, the big mystery of who was involved in TLB seemed to be solved. After the grand jury and indictments, maybe the editor allowed the story to be printed.
Did the young man just parrot a story he heard from others? Or did he scam Cohen for some cash and disappear?
Cohen is said to have written a major portion of “The Killing Of Sharon Tate” during this time. He had access to the Atkins taped interview that C&C
conducted before the grand jury took place. It is said that Cohen interviewed Atkins in jail during this time. Did Atkins tell Cohen about the story Country Sue told her concerning Zero’s death?
Did Cohen make the young man up or part of the story?
I don’t know? Who’s on first.
The following link should point to a few photos of Zero (or at least a blog that contains them and says it’s him).
https://johnphilliphaught19471969.blogspot.com/2023/03/john-phillip-haught-photos.html?m=1
Manson less involved? Are you kidding? He was involved in every, single thing that went on with his family of rodents.
Deb I can add a few possible names.
July 7, 1968
Vernell Johnson (Jane Doe 21)
Age: about 17
Repeatedly stabbed and throat slashed.
She was found on the side of the road in Laurel Canyon.
Likely LASO
Frank (Franco) Diggs (Black Panther)
Franco was the LA Panthers' gun acquirer and also was known by the authorities to sell guns to other 'left wing' groups.
December 29-31, 1968
Found in an alley in Santa Barbara
Stabbed numerous times and shot
One source says it was a Panthers execution. The source claims a gun (9mm) matched the murder weapon. The gun was, according to the source, allegedly taken in an August 1969 Panther HQ. There is no raid in August 1969.
May 19, 1969
Rose Tashman
Age 17
Strangled
She was found in a ravine off Mulholland Drive near Beverly Drive
Tex Tapes: There doesn't have to be any evidence of other crimes on the tapes for the DA to withhold them. There doesn't have to be any ongoing investigation. The fact an investigation has ended does not mean they are accessible through CPRA. If every one time Family member was dead they can still hold the tapes. The exception the DA relies on, as some of us know first hand, is exception subsection F: part of an investigation file. Once they are part of that file they stay subject to the exception from disclosure in subsection F......forever. Some of us have been trying to get the tapes or their transcript for years and some keep trying. That section is what the article is referring to when it mentions an 'investigation' they are not referring to the '12 cases'. The answer you get either cites section F or simply states something like this:
"With regard to audio and transcripts, in accordance with the California Government Code, Sections 7923.600-7923.625, records of investigations conducted by, or investigatory files compiled by, any local police agency for law enforcement purposes are exempt from disclosure. To the extent that records were located, they are either investigatory records themselves or properly part of an investigative file. Therefore, we are denying your request. The requested records may be available in response to a subpoena or court order related to pending litigation."
The way section F works they could have taken the sheet music off the piano and tossed it in the file and claim today it is subject to section F.
IMO the only logical reason they refuse to release the tapes, given what I know from first hand searching and that of others, is that there is something that will be embarrassing on them. Manson is dead. VB is dead. The embarrassment has to be something that could still resonate with the public. Either that or they are just dicks. IMO it is highly unlikely anything on the tapes will give anyone a new trial unless the tapes flat out say, for example, that PK was in Hamtramck, Michigan August 8-9-10.
Clarification: The raid referred to by the source regarding Diggs was a 'raid on a Panther HQ'. There was no Panther HQ raid in August 1969. There is, however, another raid.
David, Thanks for posting these comments. I know that you have posted the “Tex Tapes” CRPA response you received before, but it fitting for and enhances this article.
The are a couple of things that I’m not sure of that you may be able to clarify.
First are the names of the people unsolved murders that you know about or are they also unsolved murders that you received a CRPA response similar to what you received for the Tex Tapes?
Second, you mention that “the doesn’t have to be any evidence of other crimes on the tapes for the DA to withhold them.” I thought it was the LAPD that had possession of the tapes? Is the DA still involved?
Third, is there anything, a statute etc, that protects the public from the police lying or misleading the public as to open investigations or how active they really are?
Fourth, did you ever play music (an instrument) in Hamtramck, Michigan?
Hope all is well.
First: I was researching a post on the unsolved murders- Habe, Reet, etc. 'Were they Manson related, etc. I found these plus, the usuals.
Diggs came about after an effort to research the 'Panther Manson murdered' angle since despite current 'canon' Bernard Crowe was not a Panther Google the Panther shot by Manson. There is a post out there where that information, as I knew it at the time may be included called, if I remember something like 'What Scared Manson'. I only filed a request under both CRPA and FOIA on Diggs and received a subsection F response on both. It is an 'unsolved' murder. I could dig up that 'source' I mentioned I just don't remember it today. That theory is BS by the way. Diggs was a Panther 'enforcer' and never 'in doubt' per the multiple books I read at the time, besides the famous Panther HQ assault and shootout was in December 1969 not August. It was that idea- August 1969- that I delved into but if I recall no 9mm was seized in that raid, although, again perhaps faulty memory Davis and DeCarlo using fake names bought one- I could be wrong on this. The December raid was the first time SWAT was deployed anywhere in the country.
Second: No, it is LAPD. My bad. search and replace.
Third: CRPA, unlike FOIA does not require that there be an active or even 'cold case' 'investigation'. Like I said, if they had put the sheet music from the piano at Tate in the file they can assert F even today and forever. There may be a way around this- some folks are working on that and I'd like to leave it there for now.
Theoretically, the statute releases information so protection is unnecessary. The problem is if these tapes are under F as the system claims anything could be added to a file, called investigation and withheld and that is simply wrong.
Fourth: 'No' my garage band was strictly in Ohio. I am now far away from Ohio and have been for 30+ years. That location was chosen because I went to college at the greatest university in the country and the current National Champion....and because I had a GF in college from there when I was in college. Wink.
The Tex Tapes: My theory is that somewhere on the tapes, Tex mentions being involved with Shorty Shea's murder. Most of the time an attorney will say to his homicide client "tell me everything". Tex most likely told him about Shorty, and attorney Bill Boyd told him to keep quiet about it and never bring it up again, as long as he wasn't being charged. Tex raised hell trying to block the tapes' release, and I believe he was worried about his narrative and being caught in a lie ("the murders stopped after Mom called the ranch looking for me the day after LaBianca"), and the effect it would have on the parole board. The DA would have to field questions like "Why wasn't Tex put on trial for Shorty's murder with Manson Davis Grogan et al ?" Nah, keep the tapes locked up.
JP Haught: I think he was murdered, with Patricia "Little Patty" Baldwin pulling the trigger. Bruce Davis wiped the prints from the gun, and the others (Pitman, Gillies, Vance) were in on the conspiracy. If you look up a couple of excellent archival DebS posts here from 2019, about Bill Vance's time playing tomato farmer in Missouri in 1970-71, there was a letter found from a family member (most likely Davis) to Vance about Little Patty, who had been recently institutionalized for burning a farm house down. The letter stated that Little Patty could "really hurt them", and be careful with her.
The Tex Tapes most likely don't have any new unsolved murders on them.
Gorodish said:
“and the others (Pitman, Gillies, Vance) were in on the conspiracy.”
This is the first that I have read that Pitman was involved.
I thought that Pitman was still in Inyo in jail and that Pitman, Lake, and Moorehouse were transported to LA for the grand jury?
Gorodish said:
“The DA would have to field questions like "Why wasn't Tex put on trial for Shorty's murder with Manson Davis Grogan et al ?" Nah, keep the tapes locked up.”
The DA has already made a public answer regarding this to a limited section of the public. The “LADA Manson Transcripts” DVDs specifically state that ~”The DA decided to not charge Charles Watson [ for Shea] because he was already convicted of murder and facing the death penalty”.
"This is the first that I have read that Pitman was involved."
My bad, it was the wee hours when I posted. I meant County Sue Bartell, not Pitman.
”The DA decided to not charge Charles Watson [ for Shea] because he was already convicted of murder and facing the death penalty”.
Yeah but so was Manson. I just think there were no corroborating witnesses that could put Tex there, just co-conspirators whose testimony couldn't be used. Whereas Manson openly bragged to many people about Shorty's murder, Tex was "real closemouthed" (Al Springer's description) and it served him well on that one.
I still think that the DA doesn't want the tapes released even at this late date. Questions about Tex getting away with Shorty, and probably Tex mentioning how he had to do all the killing and Atkins/Van Houten just being along for the ride, etc. And there are probably no other murders mentioned on the tapes.
Gorodish,
I do not disagree with anything you said. Manson, Davis, and Grogan were all convicted for murdering Shea with a large portion of the evidence against them being that they bragged about killing Shea. Hoyt, Watkins, Flynn, and Poston were witnesses for some or all of the trials. Tex knew enough to “shut up”.
Other that parole hearing statements by Davis and Grogan, the “Tex Tapes” may be the only other source that says Tex was involved.
Like Grogan in LB there were no corroborating witnesses. IMO they would not have charged Grogan for just riding in a car.
Technically the prosecution had corroborating evidence for LB that Grogan got in the car from Flynn, who testified so in the Manson TLB trial.
Yes, and the detector dogs have barked at Barker. The convictions are the tip of the iceberg.
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