Just kidding. Old Gavin will arrive with Thor's hammer and smash the shit out of her in six months or less.
At least for right now, Katie Marnie Reeves etc gets to dream about trips to Knott's Berry Farm and the beach and Stoner Van Houten's crib for a series of live shows.
Does anyone think Krenwinkel will actually walk?
108 comments:
Tobias, thanks for the heads up in the other thread. Can't wait to see the transcripts.
Beep whir chimneys.
Yeah sorry Katie
No way will she leave prison vertically. Is she still dangerous? Likely not. I don’t think she could chase someone across a lawn using a walker. The notoriety will never go away.
Rule of law schmule of law I always say.
Totally shocked!
(Enter Gavvie)
(Door slams in Krenny's face)
"Hold on there Babalooey..."
(Newsom pulls wings off of fly)
Mental picture: Abigail Folger running screaming & bleeding across the lawn of 10050 Cielo,
and behind her in immediate hot pursuit, Patricia Krenwinkel, with a knife raised up in the air over her head.
Gavin Newsome signing off on her release? =D stop it.
This one surprised me. This is going to be a transcript I look forward to reading more than many of the others. Pat's last denial was multi-year and largely based on her omission of several key facts surrounding her participation in TLB. I do wonder how much she fessed up to this time.
I can only imagine the various thoughts and feelings that will be swirling around in Krenwinkel's hairy head over the coming weeks. You'd want to feel relieved and perhaps even joyous over the fact that you have finally earned the nod after all of these years. And yet this sense of hope must be tempered with the knowledge of what the Guv is most certainly going to do in reaction.
. . . Kind of demonstrates the relative uselessness of the death penalty, I think. A quick and painful death (Folger, anyone) is most certainly awful, but this slow-motion death on two legs is much more satisfying as far as punishment goes.
Pt 1
LVH and Bummer Bob I could live with if paroled with some kind of gradual integration plan and, strict conditions attached. I especially believe that LVH would not present ANY KIND of danger to society. Bobby is pretty tech savvy and, he has utilized technology quite impressively from prison. He's a semi-prodigious musical and electronics wizard and, he has a pretty good grasp of how to monitize and promote himself online. Would he ever use this knowledge of these technologies in any manner that could potentially create a scenario that could get "out of hand" for him and/or others? Especially when he has kinda made "puzzling decisions" and, basic errors in judgment because ge has these great abilities for many things but one thing he doesn't seem to have consistently is good judgment.
And, with his wife's passing, who will be there to "keep him honest" and, act as a second set of eyes/conscience?
I also have a gut feeling that LVH has a sound plan and support system on rhe outside/within society and, that SHE WILL LIKELY BE SAFE(R) FROM A WINGNUT ATTACKING HER! Bobby cpuld possibly still defend himself if a weird scenario presented itself...that us another reason why I think an integrated return with conditions that will offer them support and protection while integrating into 2022...which is plenty fucked up for all of us who have not been removed from society for 50+ years....the pace, impersonal nature and, overstimulation that will surround them will be difficult enough to wade into.
Pt 2
I don't know if Krenwinkel has the ability or will to successfully integrate herself into society and, keep up with the plethora of things that inundate us daily. I think she would also be the most likely to be lashed out at or, possibly attacked. She's had the worst go of it and, I can't imagine she's passed many days by without the events and decisions if her life tormenting her. And, the heart, soul and conscience of that Patricia Krenwinkel who is the Pat she was pre-Manson and, who she's tried sp hard to rediscover post-Charlie may be too damaged and, has been buried in her own self-loathing for too long to rescue. I would be very scared for her if released.
I was wondering today how many times she has reflected on the letter she sent to her father shortly after she joined up with Manson, Mary and Squeaky...how she was so exuberant about how the four of them earned money for food by washing those windows at the gas station in Washington state and, how she felt awesome and, was excited about the adventures ahead with her new friends...he'll, she even had a plan for her father to sell her car and give her stepsister Charlene $100 from the sale, forward $40 to her doctor and, have her father "keep the rest as a down payment for the gas being purchased" using his gas card.
The most depressing part for me to read though is
that she told her father that she was safe, happy and being taken care of by her new friends/family but she added that she "wasn't sure when she might see (her parents) again...perhaps in a month or so..."
Pt 3
I bet Patricia has thought about that single statement thousands of times. I bet she's punished herself analyzing it and playing her own personal "Manson movie" over and over and over and over wishing she had returned to see her folks after a month. And, she has kept playing that movie and her decline and submission to Manson's will and, as his stooge, with all of her pain, self-loathing and her post-Manson remorse and clarity and, she's wished that it was all a horrendously awful dream and, she would have made a different choice 54 years ago while washing those gas station windows...
But she can't change a single shitty thing or stop punishing herself because she can't change a freakin thing. She's so damaged. And, the fact is that she would be in her own private hell irregardless of her being released or denied parole. Someone just as messed up as she was on August 8th and 9th of August 1969 could very easily inflict violence on Krenwinkel...imagine her running from an unhinged attacker with a knife raised toward her...
I guess Pat could just spend her remaining days in a Lazy Boy recliner and crochet dog sweaters all day...never, ever going outside...especially alone. Living free but in the jail inside her mind as well as the prison level security of her home.
How long does anyone really think she would be able to endure outside? Her health is the shits too.
I'm sure everyone is having a lot of thoughts on this shocking decision even occurring.
Then there's Newsome...
Yeah, I don't see her ever being released. It seems that the Manson murders are a chapter of California history that is best left behind bars. Charlie's death was almost a non-event, and was downplayed in the media. Ah well...
Makes me even more interested in the background behind her falling out with LVH. I am probably wrong but I can't stop thinking that it has something to do with the mindset and true understanding and acknowledgement of her actions and, not introducing different tangential events that quite likely did contribute greatly to her complete surrender and submission to Manson (beatings, fear, sex trafficking) because as valid and truthful as they most certainly are...LVH had probably told Pat numerous times that the parole board members couldn't care less about such "revelations" at these hearings 40+ years down the road.
I can imagine LVH speaking with Pat and offering advice (cuz she's been recommended for parole numerous times) and, Pat nodding her head and saying "Yep, OK, gotcha...wow, that's a great idea...geez thanks Leslie" Then going to her hearings and completely going off the rails due to her self-loathing and damaged state. Then, when she was denied 17 times she would have tremendous depression and, guilt and even more self-loathing creep in and consume her....
LVH just gave up. It has beem widely said to be something from their past...there accounts of their shared past are quite similar and, this is all I can think of which could be an issue. I'm certainly not privy to their lives so, I am probably completely wrong
It is a puzzling situation
I don't expect her to be released
I really don't know if she could make it in the present society
The world is a mess
tobiasragg said:
This one surprised me
Probably not as much as it surprised Pat !
A quick and painful death (Folger, anyone) is most certainly awful, but this slow-motion death on two legs is much more satisfying as far as punishment goes
I've long found it ironic, given how much she fought to be given the death penalty in the first place, while Charlie was to skate.
Unknown said:
and behind her in immediate hot pursuit, Patricia Krenwinkel, with a knife raised up in the air over her head
I, for one, have always found this to be a really odd image. Even if one was chasing someone with a knife, would they be running with it actually raised above their head ? It would make running that much more difficult and in the night, in a place you'd never been before, the risk of tripping {no pun intended} would be high {no pun intended}.
A Different Unknown said:
Charlie's death was almost a non-event, and was downplayed in the media
Interestingly, that wasn't the case in England.
But it seemed like a non-event to the newscasters reading about it !
Doug said...
I don't expect her to be released
If history and habit have any bearing on the present reality, Pat can expect Gav the Guv to knock this recommendation back a few times, then pass it on to a different Guv'nor.
But it represents an almost "Moses on Mount Nebo" moment. Looking at the promised land, but not able to go into it. But it was major achievement to get to the point where it could be seen.
I really don't know if she could make it in the present society
I think she could. She'd have to. I think sometimes, we underestimate human resilience. We deal with whatever situations we find ourselves in, the pleasant ones and the horrific ones. And having campaigned for a jail exit for 44 years, if it came, she'd possibly be afraid, but that might soon pass. Then would come the reality of "What do I do now ?"
By the way, your 3 parter was deep and pregnant with food for thought.
Strap yourself to a tree with roots, 'cause you ain't goin' nowhere.
Grim, Doug, that image of the upraised knife has always left me baffled as well. Was it a coached statement? Linda said the same thing about the upraised knife. To me, its almost corny.
Also, Pat(and any of the others)being released: the world they would emerge into, after more than a half century behind bars, would probably be a bit of a shocker. Factor into the equation every aspect of culture, technology, trends, etc, and Pat would quickly find its no longer the autumn of 1969. When LVH was released for a short time awaiting her new trial, she remarked about how huge supermarkets had become.
I would think that depersonalisation and derealization over this new reality, after living in a controlled environment, could bring about depression and anxiety. But yes, she would have to make it work.
I agree the raised knife is baffling. It's more Scooby Doo than real.
Thanks. It was a true Doug epic rambler...
I have to think that she may well become the target of a deranged lunatic when she least expects it...and, if something like that happened...would she have it in her to fight for her life? She's spent over 50yrs trying to completely bury any iota of evil or violence she may still possess in order to get paroled...
The way things are these days - especially in the US of A, and the insane amount of incidents involving gun violence - your life could end at any moment. Add her notoriety to the horrendous state of shit going down quicker than we can try to get a handle on the death on top of death...and, she could become a target of some gun crazed moron who thinks that they are doing the world a favour by getting to Krenny.
I guess the realistic chance of Pat ever being paroled before she dies is pretty low. She has her 1st recommendation now so, who the hell really knows how things will play out
And, if Tex gets paroled the world is reallllly messed up
Big Patty deserves to be paroled. She has suffered long enough.
Doug, so like a Jimmy Vanbebber movie but real life on Pat? I hadn't thought about her parole in those terms but yeah I can totally see it. I can also see a houseful of demented tweakers worshipping her and murdering a jaded, out-of-touch tv news producer some dark afternoon when he's alone at the station, again like in Vanbebber.
I recently watched a video from here. A crazy guy is running down the middle of a busy highway, mid afternoon and cars everywhere, and shooting over his shoulder and under his armpit at the police officers who stopped traffic behind them and are returning fire. During one of dude's turns to blast one off, a bullet whizzes past his him and only misses him because he turns. Life imitating art or something, I'm not sure.
Col, hear me out. Pat in an action movie but looking like Greg Allman in Rush. Embroidered Nashville jacket, obligatory black shades, yada. Not even a head bad guy. Minor. One who gets wasted semi-early on the way to the big finish.
I have her catch phrase worked out too but can't write it here because my brilliance will trigger much apoplexy.
Silk kimono
"Makes me even more interested in the background behind her falling out with LVH"
The only revealing comment made by either woman came from LVH who said that they fell out over "differing opinions on our shared past." I imagine most everyone here is aware of the positions each held within that Manson group structure, as well as their individual histories with the man himself. With this in mind, it becomes fairly easy to imagine at least the general nature of their dispute.
LVH has clearly displayed disdain and even some amount of disgust over it all. She responded relatively quickly and well to the mental & emotional rehab plan her parents collaborated with prison officials to deliver. LVH has, for decades now, remained removed from and quite clear-eyed about that brief, horrible period of her life.
Krenwinkel's experience was much different. Her position within the Manson group's loose structure was not at all bad compared with many of the others, and she enjoyed what she felt was a significant & close relationship with the man himself. Her emergence from this mindset was much more slow and gradual - and quite possibly incomplete. As much regret as I am sure she feels now over the negative elements of that period, it is easy to imagine her also remembering and acknowledging the good times, too.
Leslie's relationship with her Manson past is distant, Patricia's relationship with the same seems more complicated. Where Van Houten expresses disgust, Krenwinkel expresses self-pity. I imagine this difference lays at the base of their current-day conflict.
[reposting to correct errors & type-os]
"Charlie's death was almost a non-event, and was downplayed in the media"
The news media acknowledged the passing about as expected and then they quickly moved on. That is the nature of the news media, and Manson's life was not one to be celebrated, let's face it.
"Pat can expect Gav the Guv to knock this recommendation back a few times, then pass it on to a different Guv'nor."
I don't think Krenny has a few times left in her.
"But it was major achievement to get to the point where it could be seen."
I'm feeling pretty sure this was more a "lifetime achievement" award more than anything else. Pat went from a five-year denial to a granting of parole in one fell swoop. This is highly unusual. The LVH course is much more the norm, where the denials get shorter over time before parole is finally granted. California has a fairly strong elder parole consideration factor built into the conditions these days. I think it was this, along with the "youthful crime" consideration that were the key factors this time around. The transcript should reveal much more.
"I think she could (make it in modern society). She'd have to. I think sometimes, we underestimate human resilience"
Completely agreed. As great of a read as it was, I don't buy into Doug's imagined depiction of Krenny's current-day state of mind at all. What he describes goes against most of what we know about human nature. Yes, to us, a life in prison is unimaginably awful. But that place has been PK's home for most of her life. While the crimes always remain in the background, she pursues her day-to-day life and her goals just as we all do.
Krenwinkel does have support out here. Her network is not as large as Van Houten's, but she does have personal friends and more distant supporters. The likes of Squeaky or Gypsy have continued to live out small lives in the free world - they have shelter and food, friends and Walmart, social gatherings and holidays. Patricia would do much the same. I think it worth mentioning that these confined people are not as isolated from society as some seem to imagine. They watch TV, they follow the news, they have iPads with limited Wifi, where they can listen to podcasts, watch films and TV series, exchange email & do video calls . . . true, they do not walk the streets as we do, but they are as connected as we were during the early isolation days of the Covid period.
I certainly don't think there are many crazed individuals out there, plotting a Krenwinkel attack. Hell, John Hinkley does public concerts now, lol.
Torque said:
that image of the upraised knife has always left me baffled as well. Was it a coached statement? Linda said the same thing about the upraised knife. To me, its almost corny
I think we talked about this recently, and I was saying that I found it an irritating statement. Not questioning its veracity, just that it was an unusual thing to say. It's something I imagined you'd see in literature. It was never something I was ever going to lose sleep about, but the statement itself then gives rise to what it's supposedly describing ~ and that is weird. Perhaps it's just the way I picture something 'upraised.' I think of it as being above one's head, arms outstretched. That image has probably done Pat more harm than any other one would care to name. Plus the fact that quite often, female murderers get a very different kind of negative press than their male counterparts.
Unknown said:
Big Patty deserves to be paroled
When discussing people that have murdered, I think the words 'deserve' and 'parole' should never appear in the same sentence. I believe in parole in some instances, but it's a bridge too far to say it is deserved. Granted, yes. A recognition of how an offender has striven to change, yes.
She has suffered long enough
I'm still trying to work out if this is sarcasm, warped humour or genuinely heartfelt. The jury's out on that, at the moment {no pun intended}.
Doug said:
she may well become the target of a deranged lunatic when she least expects it...she could become a target of some gun crazed moron who thinks that they are doing the world a favour by getting to Krenny
Hey, I wouldn't be surprised if someone going after her wasn't a deranged lunatic.
if something like that happened...would she have it in her to fight for her life?
Would any 74 year old ? At that age, Bobby couldn't take a younger, fitter, stronger man. In fact, Bobby, Charlie and Tex all have {had} histories of being on the receiving end of violence in their time in prison, and they couldn't fight their assailants. And Bruce is on a protective wing because of the perma-threat on his life.
If Pat was going to be attacked, is it likely she'd be got at by a fellow pensioner ?
She's spent over 50yrs trying to completely bury any iota of evil or violence she may still possess in order to get paroled
That's the thing with Pat; she simply was not a violent person. Paul Fitzgerald asked a profound question when he asked whether she was to be judged forever on 3 hours of her life.
But we do it all the time. We do it with politicians and sports people, actors and police officers etc. Sometimes, it's fair, sometimes it isn't, but if you've murdered someone, you can hardly complain if people do gauge you by that period.
She has her 1st recommendation now so
On the face of it, that first recommendation is the all-important one. Mind you, we all thought that with Bobby, even if we didn't agree with the decision.
if Tex gets paroled
Stranger things have happened. It's actually unlikely. However, he runs again in nearly 5 years time and who knows what winds may have blown through California by then ? He may have full blown dementia by then.
I don't think Krenwinkel is a threat to anyone anymore. However, she is culpable second only to Watson. Leslie, Bobby, and Bruce I think should be released. But not Krenwinkel and Watson due to the sheer level of their culpability in these crimes. It's a moot point but I would not have supported Atkins release either. She was much more culpable than she ever admitted to. Anyway governor is going to block releases. So I guess it's all a moot point.
tobiasragg said:
That is the nature of the news media, and Manson's life was not one to be celebrated, let's face it
It's not so much about celebration of a life, as much as it was something that was newsworthy.
I don't think Krenny has a few times left in her
Well, nor do I. But you never know, she might outlive you and I !!
I'm feeling pretty sure this was more a "lifetime achievement" award more than anything else
Blimey Tobias ! I don't even know why, but that's quite the funniest thing I've read in a while ! A lifetime achievement award ! 'Kin'ell, man !! 😸
The LVH course is much more the norm, where the denials get shorter over time before parole is finally granted
I wouldn't overlook the changing laws over the periods as well.
What he describes goes against most of what we know about human nature
For me, it was paradoxical because I think some of what Doug described was quite pertinent. But at the same time, I'm ever conscious that there are so many different ways of approaching life and so many different mindsets. While it's true that many people just subscribe to an already prescribed way of being rather than write their own chapters, it's equally true that many, many don't.
Yes, to us, a life in prison is unimaginably awful. But that place has been PK's home for most of her life...she pursues her day-to-day life and her goals just as we all do
I wouldn't want to be in jail anywhere. But I don't think I'd fold like a pack of cards if I found myself in one. I might initially have real difficulties, but adversity has been a feature of my life and even at the worst times, I just got on with it. People do.
It also occurs to me that in reality, pretty much from the moment Pat decided to waive extradition from Alabama, at Charlie's behest, she set herself up for an extended period in prison. By the time she was sentenced to death, prison was already her home {and had been for over a year} and her penalty phase performance had nothing in it that was designed to reverse that. In fact, given that the 3 women were going hell for leather to absolve Charlie and condemn themselves, I've long wondered why they muttered all the threats when they got that sentence. And given that their defence {had there been one put on} was supposed to incorporate what the actual penalty phase produced, I've often wondered why there was all the angry talk. Other than Manson being convicted and sentenced, they got exactly what they aimed for !
I think it worth mentioning that these confined people are not as isolated from society as some seem to imagine. They watch TV, they follow the news, they have iPads with limited Wifi, where they can listen to podcasts, watch films and TV series, exchange email & do video calls
I agree. I don't think they're any more isolated from everyday life than people that rarely, if ever, leave the house, but watch a lot of TV. They will have their opinions on Reagan, Bush{X2}, Clinton {X2}, Obama, Trump and Biden. They will be aware of what's happening in Ukraine, the controversy over Disney and their LGBTQ+ policy, the anger that accompanied "The Last Jedi", various olympic games, covid, the credit crunch, Manson's and Atkins' deaths etc, etc.
I certainly don't think there are many crazed individuals out there
Unfortunately, many of the cities in the States and elsewhere have their fair share of people that need very little prompting to "go off on one." The good thing is that much of it is confined to forums and social media. The bad thing is that not all of it is !
This is to just give the Governor political cover to continue to overturn Leslie's parole. Nobody in their right mind could support paroling Katie and - by association - Leslie.
Ooh nice point.
I wear a hat so usually nobody notices.
LOL! I appreciated your lawyerly perspective. Might be the first time I've seen someone move beyond one of the study's best tropes, "They'll never get out because of politics yada yada bore snore lazy talking."
Quotes might not go around the last part but that's what I hear. I'm going back to obsessively studying John the Baptist until the next time you make me laugh or Bunt shows up in my inbox with photos of yet another mentally ill hoarder who once graced the Manson Mugs and Earl the Pearl's list.
If Tate/LaBianca never happened, what sentence should Beausoleil and Davis have served for their crimes?
For a torture killing? The sentence they're serving.
Fair enough. You make some excellent points.
I'm not as worried about Patricia integrating into society and the many differences that await her. The "prison" I'm mostly trying to describe does not have much of anything to do with basic life and navigating through everyday life. I'm trying (but failing miserably) to describe is the prison inside of her that has been so difficult to completely shed. It is the prison of her self loathing and of her difficulties witnessed when she's been visibly rattled at times during her parole hearings.
She's had a pretty tough go of it and, although it has taken her longer to reach various stages of her rehabilitation and healing (she took a longer time to renounce Manson to own her actions, etc) when taking her progress and assessing that progress side to side with LVH, Mary and, even Gypsy and Atkins...I commend Pat for all of the positive and productive things that she has accomplished while incarcerated. She's been a pillar of support and guidance for numerous inmates during her many years in prison but, the person who she has had the least success in mentoring and guiding IS HERSELF!
I have no dog in this game. I don't know the woman and I believe her entirely when she speaks to her deep sadness and takes responsibility for her actions. It has taken her longer but she's not being disingenuous and she's accomplished much more than most while incarcerated...
Has she truly been able to let go of her enormous amount of self loathing, deeply rooted guilt and her shame - toward herself
That's what I was trying to convey. I totally understand what you are saying - because you have said it very well and I probably didn't
Cheers
Monroe! aka in addition to Earl the Pearl...the "original" Black Jesus!
Take THAT and choke on it Kanye..
I couldn't resist GGW...you linguistic gymnastics deserved a little Fun Fact addendum
Agreed
But, would either/both have been fully paroled by now?
If so, after how long?
Leave her out, she's done her time and shown genuine remorse with a perfect prison record, she hasn't hid behind God and has helped a lot of people in prison teaching them to read and write. Just stay out of it Gavin Newsom and respect the parole boards wishes
"It is the prison of her self loathing and of her difficulties witnessed when she's been visibly rattled at times during her parole hearings . . . I don't know the woman and I believe her entirely when she speaks to her deep sadness and takes responsibility for her actions"
I guess you've hit upon the substance of why I disagree with your POV, even while allowing for it.
We don't have any kind of great insight into these people and I would never seek to judge them on their behavior and reactions during a parole hearing - especially ones that occurred decades ago. I can't remember her exact words, but I feel like LVH probably described it best in a letter back when she was still receiving regular denials. She described the hearing experience as hours of being made to feel that you are the worst, most loathsome person on earth. Most everyone in the room is firmly against you and your every action and word is scrutinized as if you are under a microscope. As fascinated as I am with these events, I do give the perps a big pass on most of it - because I can only begin to imagine.
But outside of those very intense, sporadic events, life is life - even in prison. You get up, you look forward to the stuff on the menu that you really like, you report to work, you talk to friends, you give the evil eye to Leslie as she crosses the yard, you look forward to diving back into that great book you're reading.
By Pat's age, and long before probably, all of that more youthful angst and self-loathing has long passed. By the time you hit your 50's (if not before), you have become quite comfortable in your own skin and you've long ago accepted yourself for who you are - flaws and all. That's just human nature and I've no doubt that it is as true of Krenny as it is for you and I.
I'm a freakin mess man...
I'm not, at least not a disaster of a mess!
All good Tobias.
if Pat was released on weekend furlough would she bolt?
where do you picture her free? in my mind she is sitting at a diner counter eating a juicy cheeseburger. nobody pays any attention to her.
When Linda had her "aha' moment on the front lawn and bolted, the gate was still closed, so did she scale the embankment as the gang did to get in?
I'm sure Pat is no longer a threat at this point. But I think she's going to be staying in prison. I personally think she's fine right where she is.
Let the old lady out already.
Walk Among Us greagreatgreat album.
Ironically linda was really the most criminal of all the girls. la mer du lady dangerous nee Yana the witch... Is there any corroboration for her being called yana and the veracity of that harvard newspaper article of giving her a ride?
"Mommy Can I Go Out and Kill Tonight?"
Love the Misfits references. Adding more to my shorter original statement- I think the initial public reaction to the crimes (which admittedly were shocking and brutal beyond belief) will never go away. I also think the initial behavior and statements of the defendants drastically affected everyone’s perception of them. Leaving Hinman out of it, the main killers were Watson and Katie. Sadie and LVH played their roles too, but too a lesser extent. Sadie’s running of her mouth pretty much killed her image forever. I know it is an unpopular opinion, but over the years I have become more empathetic to Sadie and Leslie, and somewhat harder in my feelings about Katie. Tex was a monster and should never get out. I will give him credit for taking credit for Tate especially since it is against his interest to do so.
No matter what we think, the governor will never ever let out any one associated with TLB. Manson worked really hard at establishing himself as America’s boogeyman, and in the media age, that is just going to stick to the others no mayter how much they change.
Sad to announce the passing of Mark Ross
"Sadie and LVH played their roles too, but too a lesser extent."
This is an interesting point and statement, and it is one that has been on my mind recently. The self-published Manson author H Allegra Lansing, who now runs a video blog that is as weird and inaccurate as her main book is, has launched a little "Free Leslie" campaign. She has posted an impassioned plea and invited viewers to submit their own video responses. The idea is that these videos will be shared with LVH's lawyer and presumably used to support the idea of her release.
Here's the problem: the main rationale of these little video statements, which is reflected in your comment, is that LVH is "less guilty" of murder because she delivered less wounds than others and because her direct victim was possible dead, or very near death, by the time Leslie did her thing.
The law doesn't work this way. Something like Van Houten's comparative culpability simply isn't a legitimate factor when considering innocence or guilt. There are no "levels of guilt" in this matter. As we all know, LVH & the other LaBianca killers were convicted of two counts of murder & one conspiracy count. Legally, this means that LVH is as guilty of Leno LaBianca's murder as is Tex Watson. Our perception of Watson might be considerably more negative than is our view on Van Houten, but legally speaking (leaving Tate aside for the moment), the guilt is equal and shared.
O.T.
Yesterday, I ran across my CD of Terry Melcher and the Rip Chords singing Hey Little Cobra. I rate that and snagging Candice Bergin among his greatest accomplishments.
Aesop has passed?
Interestingly enough...Melcher's underrated 1974 debut solo album had a song with the same subject as a song from Charlie's debut solo album...
https://youtu.be/-xiRh9ECO8M
Was Mark playing Russian roulette?
LOL! Ice cold.
Jamming with Yod now
Did Mark know a lot more than he indicated? Yes. Did he share it? No. Was he afraid? Of what? I have no fucks to give about anything except finding the true motive. Which seems unlikely with asshats like Tom O'Neill thriving on Instagram convincing idiots that Manson was a CIA experiment and BUG was covering shit up. Bug hated you Tom, and now we all know why. BUG was one of the most garbage people I have ever come across but his contempt for you is a plus big guy.
Ahem.
Assuming Mark died, I hope it was surrounded by all his remaining friends from Venice and that his secrets are buried at sea along with his earthly body.
tobiasragg said:
The law doesn't work this way. Something like Van Houten's comparative culpability simply isn't a legitimate factor when considering innocence or guilt. There are no "levels of guilt" in this matter
This is true, but very few people that get into this case and proffer opinions, are interested in the legalities. Legalities obviously have their place, but they're not very interesting much of the time and sometimes they come across as plainly unfair. For example, it seems plainly unfair that Susan Atkins should have been convicted for the murders of Leno and Rosemary, two people she never ever set eyes on, never entered their house and made it plain that she didn't want to go into their house and kill. Yet Clem was just as much part of the conspiracy, was identical on night two to Atkins in every way and more, yet wasn't even charged. Yes, I know that's the law ~ I don't dispute that. That's just an illustration of why many people don't really get bogged down in the legalities, and major on the actualities.
Leslie however, is an interesting character in this regard however. She's the only one of the murderers that actively wanted to go out and kill. She's the only person that placed themselves in a murder they had nothing to do with {Hinman}. Even by her own words, a simple bit of maths tells us Rosemary was alive when she began stabbing her. So while she can't really be compared to Tex, Charlie or even Bobby and Bruce {in reality, not legally}, her actions back in the day ensured that she can never be seen as some kind of innocent wallflower. Regardless of how the law works.
ColScott said:
Did Mark know a lot more than he indicated?
After the second documentary I saw him in, bearing in mind Robert Hendrickson's words about his friend, Mark often struck me as the living embodiment of the phrase "There's no such thing as a free lunch."
Grim
Translated does that mean "yes he knew more and it weighed on his soul?"
Erm actually Mark told me all of the secrets before he died and asked me to release them upon his death. My upcoming book will prove once and for all the real motive.
After my earth rocking book, I will retire to online expert until I myself depart this mortal coil and find my dear friend waiting.
Preorders available now.
You thought CHAOS was earthshaking?
Stay tuned for CURDLED by Mr. Greene in the Observatory with the Lead Pipe
Zero was really Joel Pugh!
Garrettson was the Lindbergh baby all grown up!
SE Parent's secret threesome with David G and a Tribble!
Aesop's secret interpretation of the dietary laws in Leviticus!
And why there was no milk ever drunk at Spahn!
CURDLED!
From the people who brought you the recently self published Auto bio of Harvey Weinstein ( I shit you not)
CURDLED
This Fall You will finally learn about the Proscutor, The Milkman and the Cheese that stands alone!
Hey did we notice that Tobyann Hendrickson died in 2020 during the pandemic? She wasn't too well when I was in touch with the family 5 years ago. Still, a nice lady. RIP.
Brilliant!
THIS JUST IN!
Tribble 3-way proven to be the birth of the "Furry" fetish.
As revealed by a pre-Star Wars "Chewbacca" whose 1973 "fur flick" stag reel was uncovered by a man who is only known by the mysterious aka "ColScott."
This exclusive insider, who had unparalleled access to the numerous film archives of fimaker Robert Hendrickson and, the reels commented, :it was buried away in a tin that had been damaged by the elements over the years that was labeled "Gypsy Shower/Scramblehead Hunter Speech Edits/3-Way"
It intrigued ColScott immediately...he salvaged what could and reported to us that the salvaged film was "seriously disturbing"
Col Scott,
Thank you for the information on Mrs. Hendrickson. I'd often thought about her since Robert died.
Whut
If anyone has found an obituary or more information on the passing of Mark Ross, I'd appreciate a link.
Legalities obviously have their place, but they're not very interesting much of the time...people don't really get bogged down in the legalities, and major on the actualities
On the other hand, the law is sometimes fascinating in what it can and does do, for better or for worse. The way the law trussed up Charles Manson was pretty bloody cosmic and at every turn, his own perceived cosmic awareness was made to rebound on him and emphasize his guilt. And his trying to use the women and the legal system to bolster his case utterly smashed him to pieces against the rocks.
Simon Davis' book "In a summer swelter" demonstrates this in a somewhat more digestible and concise way than Bugliosi & Gentry's "Helter Skelter" {their book takes the long, winding, scenic route !} and it's no wonder that George Stimson was spitting feathers when he "reviewed" the book here a few years back. George's case in his book was that the law didn't really prove Charlie was guilty and that it's possible an alternative scenario had taken place and that he was actually innocent in regard to the Tate/LaBianca murders. Davis' book demolishes that idea, legally.
ColScott said:
Translated does that mean "yes he knew more and it weighed on his soul?"
It basically means that at some point, if one has been been hiding something or trying to box clever, it will eventually come out.
Doug said:
As revealed by a pre-Star Wars "Chewbacca"
😹 😁
If you've ever watched that horrendous 1978 Christmas special, you'll know from his Dad's penchant for "adult Wookie" viewing, that Chewie was of somewhat, um, ah, dodgy stock....🐻
Happy Memorial Day to everyone in the US. You're invited to the best bbq of all time but have to bring a partial shade perennial.
*Likely not the best bbq of all time but really good. Laid back. Chair in the shade.
Boats 2x in a row for my security question.
I can't believe this woman even got past the parole board. What's going on over there in California?
AustinAnn74 said:
I can't believe this woman even got past the parole board. What's going on over there in California?
There is a decent opinion posted on LSB3. Follow this link and look for the post:
DilligafMay 27, 2022 at 4:23 PM
Well, here is a Dilligaf opinion..
…
http://www.lsb3.com/2022/05/patricia-krenwinkel-recommended-for.html?m=1#comment-form
That '79 Christmas Special was even worse than the ET video game that was, literally, buried
'78
Cruising quickly thru the survivor statements (some incredibly powerful stuff there), I noted that one of them made reference to a Krenwinkel film team. This made me wonder if Krenny was having the event recorded for some sort of future project, or if the speaker was referring to the NYT doc, which had been quoted earlier in the speach.
Tobias, she's part of an Endless Summer remake but with more of a hallways of the always feel. Sorry. Sometimes I can't stop myself.
Traffic lights and there were more than tree.
Also, three.
In an Aesop Aquarian related Thang...this film is playing in a double bill (here in Vancouver) with the filmmakers prior documentary on The Source Family...
Kooky is kooky be!
https://thecinematheque.ca/films/2022/the-unarius-academy-of-science
URIEL SPEAKS OF THE LANDING
https://youtu.be/JLOSqw62GeU
Convicted murderers have been let out in half the time that Patricia Krenwinkel has spent in prison, isn't a brutal murder the same as any other murder?
See, when I was in my teens and became aware of such things, I felt that there was no greater sin than to rob another of their life. And "sin" is meant in the lower-case, non-Christian sense. But anyway ... when I was a kid, I used to dream of a prison island for murderers, where they all would be deposited so that they could live in the very fearful and danger-filled environment that they created for the non-murderous amongst us.
Since then, countless films and books have been created that approximate this youthful fantasy of mine, but this general approach to capital crimes still holds true for me.
I don't care that others get off with lesser sentences. For me, that is a shame. If murder truly meant surrendering one's free life and if guns were somehow less available, perhaps more murderers would think twice. Perhaps not, but it remains a hopeful thought for me.
As for Krenwinkel, I think of the sheer terror her victims felt in their waning moments here on earth. Not to mention the physical pain. Ever step on a nail? Suffer a paper cut? Magnify that times 1000, then multiply that times 27 or whatever ... Folger and Tate cried for their mothers in their last moments of life. Rosemary cried out for her husband, who himself was begging for the the onslaught to end - he had accepted that he was about to die, he was bleeding out - he just wanted the painful attack to end so that he could give up his life in some kind of peace.
And then I think of young Frank Struthers, who was blissfully enjoying an unexpected, late summer vacation evening with his best friend & his family, unaware that his mother was being slaughtered for no good reason that night. That kid was in his teens. He never recovered from the shock of that loss.
I am not without empathy for Ms. Krenwinkel and her youthful problems. Truly. But fuck her. She robbed these people of their best years, and it is a strange comfort to me that she has spent hers confined in a controlled and manicured version of that murderer island I used to fantasize about as a kid.
I wish no harm to old Krenny - but fuck her. Truly.
ColScott said...
Hey did we notice that Tobyann Hendrickson died in 2020...
Great. Now I'll never get a copy of "Death to Pigs."
Col, motive is old. You don't see the aesthetic here. Joan Huntington sweeping legs at Langley combat school. Vibrant moving colors. Wrecking Dennis' car. Maybe Terry's car. I forget which car. The supposed game of pool after with a hard cut to the break. I hear the cue ball cracking against the others so clearly in my mind.
You just heard it too and so did everyone reading this comment. I'll need to remain big picture on this one from home because of my brain things that keep me in my room. Zelle is fine. Or like really cool t shirts with like Bigfoot smoking weed and doing a peace sign.
starviego said:
Now I'll never get a copy of "Death to Pigs."
E~mail me. I'm not giving out my e~mail address here, but if you e~mail Deb.S or G. Greene-Whyte, I give my permission for them to pass it on to you.
Tony said:
Convicted murderers have been let out in half the time that Patricia Krenwinkel has spent in prison, isn't a brutal murder the same as any other murder?
Yes and no. This is a topic as nuanced as it gets, but it is nuanced.
Vincent Bugliosi wasn't particularly exaggerating when he referred to TLB as the "Crime of the century" back in 1969. As crimes go, I'd say that a case could be made for a kind of league table of crimes and variable elements determine how far up or far down the league table a particular crime may be. Of course, any views will be subjective. So it is understandable why, for example, in the UK, a group of men that robbed a train in the summer of 1963 are known as "The great train robbers." Never mind that they coshed an old train driver that never worked again, fell apart and died a few years later. Never mind that it was the wages of ordinary working people, many not far off the breadline, that got stolen. The crime was described repeatedly for years with all the drama and panache of modern day Robin {as opposed to robbing} Hoods and these guys were paraded as folk~heroes. Their legend was cemented by being given 30 year sentences, some of their daring escapes from jail, descent into further crime, plastic surgery to escape detection and some of the tragic things that happened to some of them. As crimes go, it's high up the league table.
Bugliosi however, started something very negative when he described the murders of the TLB victims as "perhaps the most inhuman, nightmarish, horror filled hour of savage murder and human slaughter in the recorded annals of crime." Yes, he carried a flair for the dramatic, but in doing so, he sometimes, unwittingly, trivialized the suffering of countless others since the dawn of creation. American troops did that in Vietnam. German troops did that in WW2. Nigerian troops did that to Biafrans during the ‘67-’70 civil war. But they’re soldiers, you might say. Well, how about the plethora of murderers that have killed people in horrorful ways since Cain ? The simple fact of the matter is that if you stab me or I get caught in the crossfire of a turf war, I might not die, even if I survive disabled/impaired and/or in pain. If you rape me, I may be traumatized for the rest of my days but at least I still have the rest of my days. If I was abused or brutalized, I have the remainder of my life to decide to carry on and I can carry on.
But if you take away my life, that’s it.
How I go is largely irrelevant. That’s it. I’m gone. Never to return. Whether I was stabbed 16 times and hung. Whether I was shot 4 times without a chance to process what was even happening. Whether I was tied up for 2 days with a one inch deep wound to my face, then eventually stabbed, then suffocated.
What the methodology does do however, is tell me something about the thought process of the killer. It gives me some clues as to how seriously I should monitor their behaviour in jail, especially if they are entitled to a shot at parole. I cannot think of any wonder that would get me to grant parole to Edmund Kemper. I couldn’t have thought of anything in the universe that would have inclined me to ever parole Peter Sutcliffe {the Yorkshire ripper}. It’s not ultimately the murders that can be made a league table of ~ murder really is murder ~ it’s the mindset of the murderer and how they carried out their crime. That’s what will always separate Leslie from Tex and what will long give Pat problems, ~ even with the recommendation.
GG-W said:
motive is old
Unfortunately, it'll never be old, because there will always be someone, somewhere that does not accept the prosecution's 4 pronged motivational plank and has a corresponding ability to articulate this.
The overwhelming majority of interest and thought would not even exist if everyone was agreed on the motive. I doubt there'd be any blogs. No one would really give much of a damn for the schools people who were in the Family for a few days, went to. No one would write about Joan Huntington or where an irrelevant drunken biker's parents were born or whether a murder victim drove from New York to LA in 1968 or '69 or about a guy driving a white car in early August '69.
George Stimson, Tom O'Neill, Nick Schreck, Michael White and a host of others would be redundant and would have little else to write about. So many people that "were supposed to have been at Cielo that night" would have missed out on their 5 minutes of, well, one can't even call it fame.
We rarely discuss most murders for exorbitant lengths of time because the motives are fairly undisputed after the events are done and dusted.
Succinct and well said. Huntington might be the smartest person in the whole enchilada.
I love her, Grim.
What is going on in California. I call bullshit on the California political team for this. The proof is when the gov gives the denial on this parole while the DA is doing everything possible to not prosecute felony crimes and releasing felones. I think k the outrage should be with the current affairs more than these disgusting bunch.
"Katie with knife raised" comments "odd image" "baffling" "scooby-doo"
It comes directly from Tex's book "Will You Die For Me" a direct quote from page 71 -
"As Frykowski sank down on the flagstones, Sadie yelled that someone was getting away. I looked across the lawn and saw Abigail Folger dashing toward the fence with Katie behind her, knife raised.
Blood was already streaking the white nightgown.
I ran across the grass as Katie tackled her. Suddenly she stopped fighting. Looking up at me as she lay on her back, she whispered without emotion, “I give up; you've got me.” It was as if my hand and the knife were one, plunging up and down. I felt nothing."
Why would Tex make that up when in that book he essentially confessed to being the one who killed everybody, nearly single-handedly and doomed himself to life in prison minimum?
As for the "upraised knife", I believe this word pairing came from Kasabian in her original trial testimony. I've never found the description particularly questionable, though obviously some have chosen to focus on it for some reason.
The real reason I am posting here is that I've just read the victim impact statement delivered by Jay Sebring's nephew at Krenny's latest stand. This statement was posted in the comments on the LS3 site or whatever it is, and I've been meaning to go read this for a few days now. Tonight I've finally gotten around to doing so and I must say that, while the nephew delivers many of the impassioned points one might expect of him, he also delivers what to me was a fairly powerful & somewhat spontaneous response to Krenwinkel statements from earlier in the hearing.
No doubt, the Sebring nephew was scribbling thoughts and reactions in real time that fed this portion of his lengthy statement, but I do think that he captures well the insanity (depending on one's point of view) of these California parole decisions of late. While I land on the "lock her up!" side of the Krenwinkel debate, to the extent that there IS an actual debate, I can feel all kings of empathy for everyone involved in this hearing - which is part of what makes this continuing matter so haunting for me. Anyway, here is the quote, with thanks to whoever first shared this over yonder:
"At today’s hearing, Ms. Krenwinkel describes “allowing” and “allowed” as in “I allowed these things to happen” & “I allowed to lead me in this direction.”
After having lived with the loss and suffering caused by Patricia Krenwinkel for decades- any use of the words “allow”, “allowed”, “allowing” is quite disturbing.
Particularly painful and disturbing to our families were decisions and judgements that occurred at Patricia Krenwinkel’s last two hearings, on December 29, 2016 and June 22, 2017, when the Parole Board and CDCR decided to initiate an extensive investigation into whether Patricia Krenwinkel——the convicted killer of seven and an unborn child——was an abuse victim.
As I stated to Don Thompson of the Associated Press, “for this investigation to be initiated at this point——after several decades——is mind boggling. I don’t understand how we go from being a murderer——convicted killer of eight——to an ‘intimate partner victim’. It’s absurd. It’s like the world is upside down. How do you kill eight people, and then become the victim?!”
Tobias, I think dude goes too far via his Marsy's Law privilege to say whatever pops into his mind uncontested during those hearings. Nephew gets to sew the issues of right now into in the year 1969 over and over. Did he bring any evidence of his child trafficking claims this time by any chance?
Oh yeah, the survivors can get a bit crazy with how far they go. But I did think the part of his statement that I shared was pretty powerful stuff.
As for the child trafficking, I think all of that arose from Krenwinkel's claim that Manson had raped multiple underaged girls at the ranch. I know that there were a couple, but it seemed to me that Pat was exaggerating the whole deal. I didn't really pay much attention to any of that, all of it rang false to me.
She really is special dumb if she did that to herself. I love your love of the parole transcripts. We truly have people looking into things here.
If you read the last two Krenny hearings, the issue was raised in one of those. I think it was all wrapped up in the whole "abusive culture" attempt to gain freedom. The board at that time called the prisoner out pretty well on these claims. Patricia went on about how Manson had raped 15 year olds, 14 year olds, even kids as young as 12. One of the commissioners then asked "and you were aware of this? you saw this happening?" When Krenwinkel said that she was, the Commissioner then asked "and you did nothing? you told no one?" and that's when the hemming and hawing began.
I dunno why I look forward to the release of these transcripts each year or whatever it is. I guess these are some of the few sources of updated information on these people, and it's always interesting to see how each murderer addresses & discusses their crimes. Plus, I think it's also the horror I feel over the idea of spending ANY time confined in the ways that they are, much less the majority of one's life. It's hard to fathom.
Unk said:
"Katie with knife raised"...It comes directly from Tex's book "Will You Die For Me" a direct quote from page 71
It existed in book form, a good 5 years before Tex's book. In William Zamora's book, "Trial by your peers," from 1973, he mentions it. From HS in '74 it is mentioned. And during cross examination in the trial Linda stated "and then I saw Katie in the background with the girl, chasing after her with an upraised knife, and I just turned and ran to the car down at the bottom of the hill."
tobiasragg said:
I've never found the description particularly questionable, though obviously some have chosen to focus on it for some reason
I don't find the statement questionable, just odd. It just doesn't seem like everyday language, even from 1970. It's a bit like Leslie in that Ear Hustle interview, using the word "tootle." Because one doesn't hear it and may not have done so for 45 years, when you see it, it makes you look. It's kind of jarring.
I don’t understand how we go from being a murderer——convicted killer of eight——to an ‘intimate partner victim’. It’s absurd. It’s like the world is upside down. How do you kill eight people, and then become the victim?!”
Jay's nephew there simply illustrates why the parole of an inmate has to be decided by someone other than a family member of the victim. Apart from Suzan LaBerge more than 30 years ago, it is almost impossible for the family member to see beyond themselves and their feelings. Now, that is understandable and I won't even argue that they should feel other.
However, although I don't regard Pat as a victim that, out of her victimhood, she was pushed to murder, the reality is that even if that had been the case, the family members would likely say exactly the same thing. And some people have, arguably, been pushed to murder and have simultaneously been victims.
It often feels like one is ragging on the victims' family members, but this is reality. Everything needs to be looked at and tackled if one is to have any kind of opinion and it is damned difficult territory. There are going to be some uncomfortable realizations and observations but none of us is perfect and 'family of victim' does not confer one with "fireproof" status.
Oh yeah, the survivors can get a bit crazy with how far they go
And because their loved ones were victims of murder, it's like one is not allowed to point out where they perhaps are going wrong. I have no problem with someone opposing the parole of a perp. It is right that the law gives people that opportunity. But it doesn't exist in a vacuum and neither does it justify the notion that it is OK when "grandma fights dirty."
GG-W said:
I think dude goes too far via his Marsy's Law privilege to say whatever pops into his mind uncontested during those hearings. Nephew gets to sew the issues of right now into in the year 1969 over and over
And as far as I'm concerned, this is wrong, plain and simple. One does not need to be a fan, supporter or sympathizer of Charles Watson, Pat Krenwinkel or Bobby Beausoleil to feel more than uncomfortable when family members and DA reps spout out inaccurate info that is clearly designed to make a perp look worse than they are or were. When one starts going down that route, as far as I'm concerned, they have already lost the game, regardless of the result.
Our world has become increasingly openly polarized in many matters, with normality often defined as taking a particular side. Well, some of us happen to see all the sides. It's an itchy & uncomfortable place to be.
tobiasragg said:
I dunno why I look forward to the release of these transcripts each year or whatever it is
Ever since I was a teenager, I've been into reflecting upon my life thus far. So I'm interested in people reflecting on their lives or portions of it. That might explain why I love interviews and autobiographies, even though I might be somewhat cynical at times about what a person actually says and take them to task for it. It's certainly made me enemies on blogs when I've quoted a person and commented on what they've said or used it as a jumping off point !
The transcripts grant one a window into the perp, the questioner, the family members and adds to the ongoing interest, for life is a continuum. A mate of mine used to say "speech is self-revealing" and I agree with that. What we say is a reflection of what's going on inside, even when we lie.
Tobias, thank you. I remember all of that now. The way you summarized is the way I read it too lol.
Does it bug you that we are no longer getting updated photos of these elderly Mansonites? We haven't seen a good pic of Krenny in five years, if I'm not mistaken. Think she's had work done? :D
While I'm on the subject, this has always been my favorite photo of Ms. K. The light makeup, the hairy arms, the just-for-show cross, the post-hippy beaded bracelet. I think of it as Krenny's Farrah Fawcett period - all that's missing is a nipple!
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/2111131065656876/
Speaking of children coming at their parents with knives i think we've reached the apotheosis of mansonoid drop out stranger murders with Amato and Halderson. Yeesh, those two got me reeling
Ewww....hella gross
Tobias - you didn't mention Krenny's stealth hand sign/message
She must've still been at least a wee bit under the "spell" of Charlie and her Family pals when this photo was taken
Grant Amato is definitely pure evil with a generous helping of epic stupidity and unbelievably dim witted brain function
Chandler Halderson is a much more methodical and disturbed mind who is a lazy, spoiled, entitled piece of garbage who's pathological lying and completely self-serving house of cards fantasy life caught up to him and, who pretty much effortlessly, and without any conscience whatsoever, savagely destroyed his parents because they were going to make him start to pull his weight.
They both had a similar endgame and result but the way they got to playing out their respective endgame (and the evilness inside of each of them) came from their unique set of circumstances and how they decided to play things out.
There is a lot of evil out there nowadays.
He was just gonna be exposed, was nt even being asked to pull weight yet. Mind boggling. I like how his lawyers could barely stand by him
Hundo.
What the hell are you going on about? You are talking like you're drunk, who are you?
I’m Tony.
Whats apotheosis mean ag ain cuz really those two spoiled evil brats are the opposite of runaway stranger murder.
Tony - I never even knew him...
"What the hell are you going on about? You are talking like you're drunk, who are you?"
Yours was not a question asked of me, but I have been operating under the assumption that everyone who participates here does so when they are good and stinkin' drunk!
Maybe I should drink less. Or more:D
What's provenance in Manson anyway? Earlier claims of secret knowledge unavailable to the unwashed masses? Being one of the first to look up George Brunner's store via Ancestry?
No peer review. No experts. Period.
There's a link on LSB Manson blog to proof of his cremation
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