I don't think I've ever used yon in a sentence. Maybe I should try to work it into casual conversations. "What time is Saturday's bbq at yon's abode?" "OMG would you please remove yon's clothes from the f-ing dryer! I've been asking for two days!"
Today, I have stars in my eyes for Buntline. But I legit always do. Bunt is one of those rare researchers who provides data with their thoughts. In forty-eight hours, Buntline basically figured out Ruth Gordon and found Danny DeCarlo's arrival in the US.
More than that, Bunt put me back on track with additional documents after I missed a govt. typo and started looking for a timeline I'd never find.
Danny's 1944 birthdate was incorrectly transcribed, possibly by the AI that reads that stuff, as 1914. I totally missed it. His parents are indeed Thomas and Marie.
3976 3rd Avenue in Los Angeles is worth over a million dollars now. The DeCarlo's shoulda kept the property. I'm not a big stucco guy fwiw.
Someone from LA is welcome to correct me but that looks like the Leimert Park neighborhood. Here's what I found on Wikipedia. The location of their first US home makes me think Crenshaw and not Westchester was the likely high school for the DeCarlo kids.
*A bit of minutia. Patricia Krenwinkel and Lynette Fromme also attended Westchester High School at different times.
-------------
Moving on to Ruth Gordon.
Here's Matt and them (you) discussing the mugshots a decade ago. The only write up I could find on Ruth Gordon was this one. The owners of that website asked readers to "let them know" if anyone finds more info on Ruth. I hope this suffices.
Those of you following the Mr. X saga on Allegra Lansing's channel know Mr. X dropped a couple of Spahnites' names during the first installment of his interview. Jack Gordon, 4th from left bottom row, and Barbara aka Ruth Gordon, two photos away from him on the right. Mr. X mentions they had a baby named Aaron who Mary Brunner delivered at the Ranch. Sadly, little Aaron died. His last name on the death certificate is Cline.
AB Nobel Jr. High School is 2.4 miles miles away from Chatsworth HS and located on the same street. Check out Keith Carradine top right, second from right. Those eyes are enough to make a straight man swoon.
-------------
I know I've been heavy on requests lately but I'm wondering if anyone has the corresponding documents from Tom O'Neill's notes section of his book, or knows where I will find them.
 |
My first vacation in a year starts next week but unofficially yesterday. I can't promise I won't post fifty-five more times before Monday but will refrain once something big and juicy appears in our queue. Buntline, Welsh Englishman, Tobias, Torque, dare I say even Matt and David. I'd love to read something from you folks if you ever find yourselves suddenly seized by the urge to type. Jay on a film review, maybe?
And seriously, if you're out there reading this and have something to add to the conversation, shoot Matt an email. Fresh takes are welcome and invited. Shoutout to my homie, Mr. Nitelite, for texting all day about this crazy milieu we inhabit. +ggw
96 comments:
This is terrific work, GW!!!
Thanks!
Buntline,
Thanks for identifying a couple of more faces in the/“Scabs” mugshot matrix. This has been bugging me for years.
G. Greene-Whyte,
“Barbara Cline”. Interesting that two women with like names have indirect ties.
A few months back you wrote an article that had a picture of “Barbara Klein”. No one mentioned her, beside’s being intelligent enough to appear in “Playboy” and “Hee Haw”, she bought a wig from Watson.
Picture of “Barbie Benton” (Barbara Klein)
https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEiX2ZUJl2nBROwMTZquOYolBzdKk8hN75i1RcJFlK1op3Be86tLMlO_dkVFlBn843pJcqO93CIseHib9Ovr8pTsrLErDBVIjIaLLaM_2vX-CYy08iKIaSWgMJAFNJazCH6qyKIV0IpEzAcXrCQEWgIUBA0710Aq1CX9DuxbIOBK_hNmjfeX5tVH477G=s1200
Article that picture appeared in.
https://www.mansonblog.com/2022/01/gail-bugliosi-calls-hef-her-good-friend.html?m=1
Article mentioning that Watson sold wig.
http://www.paulmorantz.com/cult/escape-from-cielo-dr-a-tale-of-three-charlies/
Ha! I love it, ToF. I think I also found Barbara Klein's high school photos this week then and didn't realize what I had.
Thanks goes out to Montana Sun for the Coast Guard info. I was about to be seriously nihilistic about this stuff if one more presumed fact turned out to be a lie.
Sorry. Montana also showed me a 1959 naturalization date for Danny.
Thank you, Shoe. All glory goes to Buntline and Montana.
Yes, this is terrific work. As I've said before, there is information out there. If we look long enough we can find it. And yes, I'm working on another post presently. Hope to have it completed in the near future.
All the mugshots are identified, here.
https://www.charlesmanson.com/family-members/
They are in a different order.
Just over the past few weeks, this blog has provided me with tons of new information and food for thought. Thanks to everyone for sharing their research and opinions.
Jay:
Just over the past few weeks, this blog has provided me with tons of new information and food for thought. Thanks to everyone for sharing their research and opinions.
Very well said, Jay!
This is the kind of reliable data that's required to really advance qualified knowledge in the entire area of TLB.
When excellent and patient researchers dig this stuff out and what's more important, share it with the like-minded, this acts as a catalyst for new enquiry and speculation. If we then share this, a whole new round of research/thesis/synthesis becomes possible, and reliable knowledge advances.
At its very best, what we're doing here is assembling an in-depth informal historical record for posterity. It's a piece of popular local history (similar to the events that led to the Zoot Suit Riots), rather than a foundational regional history (like the linking of the US via transcontinental railroad), but it's still important.
If we do this right, we are historians by avocation.
Good show! Very good show!
Thank you, Jay. Discovering DeCarlo was naturalized prior to his US Coast Guard service was fun. I think we're in a good research window right now, or a sweet spot if you will. People who lived thru the time and the actual experiences are still with us, and incredible amounts of data and information never stop becoming available.
On the topic of DeCarlo, how would you assess his personality and character?
I'll lead of, in an attempt to prime the pump...
I think he was a fairly simple person, his prominent obvious trait was chasing women which he seemed to enjoy in a fairly normal fashion.
He had a bit of the sexual braggart in him, and good street sense. He was marginally attracted to Manson & his philosophies, but only so far as it allowed him, a male, to lounge around, play with motorcycles and guns, get loaded, and get laid.
My readings of his testimony so far (TBL group, not yet Watson) showed him to fairly artfully distance himself from Manson, but he seems fairly easy to see thru.
Basically, like the other males surrounding Manson, lacking the ability to set intermediate and long term personal goals, and found it easy to drift toward the easy and comfortable.
Great work, GW! Thanks for your efforts!
This is the way to initiate a positive feedback loop. You've done something of importance, as David and others did with their in-depth pieces.
Thanks, Shoe. I don't really have an opinion on Danny to even know enough to be dangerous. Those California kids are all so much better looking than us Ohioans, and the light is always better in photos from out there, that everyone takes on a Hollywood actor filter to me lol.
These crimes are so entrenched inside the middle class that it's so easy to imagine a lot of their convos around the fire before the train came off the tracks. "You went to Westchester?? SO DID I! What years?? "OMG you probably know my cousin Mary Riley!"
"Remember old man Chang's candy store?" Etc.
In photos, Danny looks like he's small and scrawny albeit handsome. I expected biker guys to be scary and intimidating. It's like when you tour a castle and the knights' armor on display is for someone 5'2.
Michael Channels, if you read this, please email me or get your number to me. I am looking for clarity on something. Gracias, senor.
Actually, ToF also got us to this point on Danny. I apologize for leaving you off my thanks list.
GW:
In photos, Danny looks like he's small and scrawny albeit handsome. I expected biker guys to be scary and intimidating. It's like when you tour a castle and the knights' armor on display is for someone 5'2.
HAH!
It's like that character from SpongeBob, the one that is a very aggressive megalomaniac, with dreams of world conquest, and scary looking, but is a protozoan or something equally impotent and hence incapable of any real fulfillment.
Plankton lol. So how many years would you say it was after the war that the teenagers of Los Angeles and Greater Los Angeles began rebelling in bunches?
"Rebelling in bunches"...
Kinda open-ended, lessee what I can dig up...
For me and my ilk (pretty middle of the road, but driven by the need to be "cool enough to get the chicks") up until maybe Tet and just after, there was little thought of banding with others against authority. For many, like myself, I'd not join, but consistently rhetorically sympathize with such groups as SNCC and the Weathermen, Panthers, etc.
Prior to Tet, which was perceived as a very real threat to potential inductees, which was all males either immediately, or after their 2-S student deferment expired (5 years of 30 units per year, 2.0 GPA, or after Dec 69, lower 1/3 of the lottery) it was mostly just smoking dope/hash and marginally sympathizing, just like drinking beer had been in HS.
So for the avante-garde, maybe 63-64, and for people like me, the vast urban/collegiate majority, after late 68.
Bugliosi gives us the HS lens through which to view DeCarlo as a half-drunk lovable rogue.
On various boards there used to be loads of giggles regarding the size of his sexual equipment.
That said he was in charge of the armoury, provided Davis with the gun that Beausoleil took with him to Hinman.
I have seen talk regarding DeCarlo being the fourth person who went to Hinman.
In return for his prosecution testimony I understand he was able to avoid an assault charge and federal charges regarding drug smuggling and purchasing firearms.
One can easily imagine a world whereby the guy in charge of firearms for such a dangerous death cult would come under greater scrutiny from authorities. However, not being directly involved his testimony could be regarded as a suitable trade for his not facing justice on any charges?
Thanks, Shoe.
Yo, Chris. My mind plays tricks on me but I feel like DeCarlo says at Bobby's trial that he was busted for selling a stolen motorcycle engine. No?
Fantastic research and information
In that interview with sherry cooper he comes off as a total asshole
TabOrFresca said...
On March 29, 1967 Lawrence, Mariam, and Danny DeCarlo were found guilty (transporting marijuana). Appeal was brought up and the subject of bond and running came up.
I've heard that Danny was still facing Federal Drug Charges at the time of the TLB trial, and that these charges were then dropped in return for his testimony. Is this true?
But if they were found guilty of drug smuggling in March of '67, why weren't they shipped off to prison post-haste? They can wait out their appeal behind bars, like most everybody else. I'd like to find out exactly how much 'time' the three actually did. I wonder if the drug smuggling busts weren't just an attempt to 'sheep dip' Danny DeCarlo as some kind of bad-ass, to give him credibility in the underworld.
HS has him in trouble for stealing an engine or mcycle parts. He was definitely the gun guy in the group. Hendrikson's movie owes a lot to him in the prop department!
Maybe the Straight Satans had DeCarlo hanging around Spahn as a way to keep an eye on things? It might make sense to send him along to Hinman’s. A full patched biker would be more intimidating than a pretty boy wannabe musician and some hippie girls.
The part where Danny is saying something to the effect of they told me the sick or depraved things they did to impress me because I'm in a motorcycle club was so over the top that I started thinking he's full of beans about everything.
Anyone ever felt like Joan Huntington sends them messages across time?
GW:
...I started thinking he's full of beans about everything.
Yes, I got the same impression.
He was a relatively simple sort trying to portray himself in the best possible light to someone with his sensibilities--he was unsophisticated enough to be unable to "see" beyond his own frame of reference.
So that in his view, if someone told *him* what he was telling the interviewers or the jury, that hypothetical person would be really impressed with how cool he was.
There is even false modesty and understatement thrown in, poor bastard.
Picture of Ruth Gordon on the day of the arrest:
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qcnClJvQvbY/XR3WipDSYpI/AAAAAAAAY-E/AhSCN_PPueUwioo1L73gANZ8Z36bfd3DQCLcBGAs/s1600/ColumboTryAndCatchMe1.jpg
LOL!
Bwahahaha
Well done, Peter.
"Oh," he says, turning back just before turning the door knob and leaving, "there's just one thing that still bothers me though...."
Starviego said:
I've heard that Danny was still facing Federal Drug Charges at the time of the TLB trial, and that these charges were then dropped in return for his testimony. Is this true?
But if they were found guilty of drug smuggling in March of '67, why weren't they shipped off to prison post-haste?
The DeCarlo marijuana smuggling incident is like everything else … clear as mud.
7-30-66 Michael and Sharilyn Brown, and Lawrence, Miriam, and Danny DeCarlo go to Tijuana in the Brown’s car. The Browns and DeCarlos get separated and the DeCarlos walk back to USA at 1:00 AM (7-31-66) waiting for the Browns at a drive-in restaurant. At 3:00 AM the Browns are stopped by customs and 11 bricks of marijuana are found in the car. The bricks were described as kilos that were dry and the total weight was 19 pounds. The DeCarlos hitched home - took a bus part of the way.
11-9-66 Indictment
3-28-66 Federal trial begins. The Browns sever and their trial is set for 5-16-67. The Browns are witness for the prosecution.
3-29-67 The DeCarlos are found guilty and released on bond. Note that Danny and Miriam say that they have been married for 1.5 years but admit that they are legally not married (license).
6-19-66 Indictment of Miriam DeCarlo was dismissed and her bond exonerated.
6-30-67 Motion for new trial. Witnesses are David Humphreys (Straight Satans president) and David Daniels (Straight Satans vice-president). Straight Satans are 3-4 weeks old formed by George Knol. Daniels works on DC motors for missiles and has security clearance.
Sometime after the 7-31-66 arrest, both Daniels and Humphreys heard Mike Brown arguing with Danny, Brown saying he would clear it up. This occurred at Joe Schoemacher’s house. Joe had a lot of motorcycle parts in his garage.
Motion for retrial denied
7-5-67 Notice of appeal was timely filed
8-14-67 Disposition - Lawrence committed to custody of Attorney General as youthful offender for supervision. Danny sentenced to five years imprisonment for each of three counts to run concurrently
8-16-67 Stay of execution for defendants, remain on bond, for further proceedings regarding appeal.
7-19-68 Appellant Brief received
8-6-68 Appellant Brief filed
2-10-70 Appeal - without merit, Affirmed
?? Spring/70 Danny testifies at Beausoleil Trial (2)
9-18-70 Danny testifies at TLB that case has been dropped after Beausoleil testimony.
He still has weapons and assault charges outstanding
TorF:
I stand in awe...
Great background work!!! Thanks!!!
ToF, that was amazing. Thank you.
Link to -
422 F.2d 237
Lawrence DeCARLO and Daniel Thomas DeCarlo, Appellants,
v.
UNITED STATES of America, Appellee.
Nos. 22568, 22568-A.
United States Court of Appeals, Ninth Circuit.
Feb. 10, 1970.
https://m.openjurist.org/422/f2d/237/lawrence-decarlo-and-daniel-thomas-decarlo-v-united-states-of-america
Incredible sleuthing ToF
TabOrFresca said:
The DeCarlo marijuana smuggling incident is like everything else … clear as mud
That may be, but you've given those interested in some background, a tremendous heads up.
👏 👍 🤝
Thank you Tab for the great info!
TabOrFresca said...
...At 3:00 AM the Browns are stopped by customs and 11 bricks of marijuana are found in the car.
...The Browns are witness for the prosecution.
Prosecution for what? Some kind of conspiracy charge? How could Danny be prosecuted for smuggling/transportation if he's not the one that got caught?
3-29-67 The DeCarlos are found guilty and released on bond
I'm not an expert in the legal field, but damn few defendants get to go home after being found guilty! Usually, whenever you see this happening, it's for some guy who is politically or socially powerful, and who has a ton of money to spend on defense lawyers.
How much was DeCarlo's 'bond' and who paid for it?
Star said: "Prosecution for what?"
Doug linked:
Lawrence and Daniel DeCarlo appeal from their conviction under each of three counts charging:
(1) aiding and abetting Michael and Sharilyn Brown in smuggling marihuana which should have been invoiced and importing marihuana contrary to law, (2) aiding and abetting the same persons in knowingly concealing and facilitating the transportation and concealment of marihuana which had been imported contrary to law, and (3) conspiring with the Browns to import and to smuggle marihuana into the United States, all in violation of 21 U.S.C. 176a. Each was given concurrent sentences. We affirm.
The Bowns turned them in.
Star said: "How much was DeCarlo's 'bond' and who paid for it?"
Rule 9 of the Federal Rules of Appellate Procedure governs release pending appeal. That would be number nine.
Yes, it's an uphill battle to obtain release pending appeal but not impossible and actually has to do with flight risk, seriousness of the crime and the trial court's view of the merits of the appeal.
PS: The court wrote an opinion. It had some merit.
To get your answers you can take the case name and number, district court location and date from Doug's link and contact the archives for that Federal Court. They will send you everything in the file that was paper. There should be an order on the issue and even findings as to why the court granted it. It will also tell you who posted bond, although that is likely to be DeCarlo who might have gotten the money from a certain motorcycle club who tried to lie for him in the trial.......just an idea.
This is such a cool comments thread. The power of collaboration is incredible. Is Miriam the Miriam I see online who was/is from Arizona? Does anyone know?
David, thanks for the update.
OK, from reading the appeal docs at the link provided by Tab, I get the idea that DeCarlo was found guilty simply on the statements of the guy who got caught with the weed. So it was basically a 'he said, he said' type deal. No corroborating evidence at all. Wow...
So the Brown's get caught with the weed and just straight up say other people are in on this with us?
You guys and Montana have given my brain the opportunity to safely move away from Danny loops and I thank you all. I'm ruthless to myself when I want to know something.
My question to all of you then is do you think Danny was an active informant against the family before the Spahn's raid?
The Canadian TV interview with Danny and Sherry turned me off to both of them, probably for good.
Today in history is the day of Watson's Belladonna arrest. 4/23/1969.
G. Greene-Whyte said...
...do you think Danny was an active informant against the family before the Spahn's raid?
Most probably, yes.
...do you think Danny was an active informant against the family before the Spahn's raid?
Most probably, yes.
So much for the fondly held belief that "you just don't snitch--it's simply not done".
What anyone with any sense whatsoever ought to be able understand at this point is that these kinds of folks have a tendency to get into a jam, and rat each other out to avoid some level of punishment.
The Browns did it to DeCarlo, DeCarlo certainly fairly cheerfully testified for the prosecution against the Family he was a part of and now we're considering that he may have informed on them as well.
This is little different from Atkins blabbing to the two women prisoners--OF FUCKIN' COURSE they'll rat her out if they can gain some level of favor from the authorities.
The most prominent exceptions that I can see are those women most attached to Manson on a personal level.
I think it might be possible. Maybe he was an active informant in the biker gang, and then they entered into Manson’s orbit. Interesting to speculate at the very least
Totally
Sherry looked pretty
GG-W said:
My question to all of you then is do you think Danny was an active informant against the family before the Spahn's raid?
I don't believe he was.
shoegazer said:
What anyone with any sense whatsoever ought to be able understand at this point is that these kinds of folks have a tendency to get into a jam, and rat each other out to avoid some level of punishment
And yet, there were a number of people involved with Charlie that didn't.
Bobby Beausoleil wasn't one of them ! I still find it funny that he said Charlie killed Gary Hinman, at his 2nd trial. He was taking advantage of the media attention Charlie was getting.
This is little different from Atkins blabbing to the two women prisoners--OF FUCKIN' COURSE they'll rat her out if they can gain some level of favor from the authorities
Prior to talking to Virginia Graham and Ronnie Howard, Susan confessed all to another jailbird, Nancy Jordon. She gives an interview in Robert Hendrickson's book, "Death to pigs",
which, although it came out around 2011, is all from 1969~71. Jordon's advice to Atkins was to say nothing. She could've used it to her advantage but she knew that there were women in prison that could kill {she mentions mop handles, which makes the eyes water when the imagination runs riot} and snitching in prison was a risk to one's life.
But both Graham and Howard went to the police because they feared there were further killings planned, and random ones too. It's an interesting thought as to whether or not they would have done so if that wasn't an element in Susan's storytelling.
Awesome!
We're kicking ass here folks
Fun Fact #666 - DDD did happen to be the TREASURER of the moto club too!
Probably a big reason why DDD and SVS hightailed it to Canada. DDD (born in Toronto) would be able to cross (illegally) but wouldn't get hassled much with proof of his birthright.
Eventually ending up in Langley British Columbia (when it was Langley trees and packages of land for sale to develop and live on.
The 10yr old me would even attend 2 pig roasts on a Langley property as guests of my older female cousin who was dating a local biker at the time (her friends would also let me take along with them to the ZZ Top "livestock" tour stop in Vancouver.
Apparently DDD and SVS were at those pig roasts and, I was told a few yrs later that SVS was the lady who looked out for me/my safety and chaperones the 10yr old me.
They booked for Toronto next...before coming back out west and eventually settling down in Oregon where (I think) they operated a gas station.
That CBC television interview was after the pig roasts and, conducted in Toronto
Oooh-eee-oooh
Truth
Damn sausage fingers...typo hell
"do you think Danny was an active informant against the family before the Spahn's raid?"
No evidence of this at all.
Danny DeCarlo hung at Spahn to get fucked up and to get laid. He first seemed to hit law enforcement's radar after the Spahn raid.
There are transcripts posted of his conversation/interviews with the Manson prosecutors in which each of the charges he was facing were discussed. I'm not quite sure what the big mystery is on that one.
Doug, what's odd is Danny and Miriam aren't divorced until 2 April 1975.
It's possible I saw Danny's earnings from 1972-1976. He more likely ran the gas station for someone. If Montana is lurking about, maybe they will add to it.
Hi, Tobias. Welcome back.
tobiasragg said...
Danny DeCarlo... first seemed to hit law enforcement's radar after the Spahn raid.
The one person who would have known is LASO Sgt. William C. Gleason. He is described as being an LASO car theft detective, but he was in fact in charge of the LASO's Outlaw Motorcycle Club desk:
Box 49 Grand Jury Proceeding in the murder of Hinman April 9, '70 and April 14, '70
pg244 LASO Dep Gleason:
His job was to maintain "our department's intelligence files on members of outlaw motorcycle clubs."
He first visits Spahn on Aug 3rd or 4th('69), "seeing if we could observe any activity regarding outlaw motorcycle clubs."
So you can be sure the DeCarlo name was in the police files even before he joined up with the Family.
"So you can be sure the DeCarlo name was in the police files even before he joined up with the Family."
Sorry, I should have been more precise. How neglectful of me. What I meant to say is that Mr. DeCarlo was not on the radar as far as Manson & his people went. They'd definitely taken note of him prior to this, but it had nothing to do with the family.
I believe that he was in British Columbia circa 75/76 is
I was no more than 11
I believe my cousin's boyfriend (Brian) passed away in 1977. HUGE Outlaw Biker procession to/from the funeral...a lot for my innocent ears/eyes to absorb
I could be wrong...or, they were just biking from Portland to Langley to attend "special events"
Love to see his earnings...can you email me a scanned image?
Doug, I'm not sure if it's mine to send around. Montana, are you out there?
GT:
Jordon's advice to Atkins was to say nothing. She could've used it to her advantage but she knew that there were women in prison that could kill {she mentions mop handles, which makes the eyes water when the imagination runs riot} and snitching in prison was a risk to one's life.
And you feel pretty certain that Jordan actually heard Atkin's tale, and offered that advice?
Is there any independent support for her belated claims?
I mean, she's not simply another aging loser trying to grasp just a tiny piece of notoriety by way of connection to the Manson phenomenon?
But both Graham and Howard went to the police because they feared there were further killings planned, and random ones too.
Ah. Civic-minded...
It's an interesting thought as to whether or not they would have done so if that wasn't an element in Susan's storytelling.
GT, we tend to see this issue of ratting out others for personal gain, among the criminal elements, differently.
You, like Kiera Knightly, seem to believe that it's a sort of honor system among thieves--like The Code of the Pirate Brethren--while I see it more like Barbossa, that they're more like guidelines or even suggestions, rather than hard-and-fast laws.
My vote is in the no honor amongst thieves camp. The ones who believed that malarky and didn't snitch in Manson paid the price.
Doug, ToF, et al. Was Medford home to a 1% club. That might explain what Danny was doing there unless he mom was up there or something like that.
G. G-W, et al:
For local background, but nothing definitive, there are two cities in S Oregon that have a sort of odd, gritty feel. Medford is one and Klamath Falls the other. This is now, *today*. I don't know about then.
Much of the rest of "settled" Oregon is pretty much woke, yew betcha.
However, I do think that there is/was a Gypsy Joker presence in Oregon, then and now.
Very strange logo. It has a sort of "hall of mirrors" effect. Unexpected in a pack of ass-kicking drug fiends.
Joker logo
Note that the joker is holding a sort of staff with streamers in his left hand, and on the staff is a smaller joker, holding a staff in his left hand with streamers. This smaller joker's staff may/may not (too small) also have a yet smaller joker, with a staff and streamers...GOOD GOD!!!
Ah. Just warming up...nothing to say, as you can see... :^(
LOL! Ya never know. Part of me thinks birds of a feather. Another part thinks they all would've known Danny was a known snitch and fear eventual prison terms via associating with him.
G. G-W:
My vote is in the no honor amongst thieves camp. The ones who believed that malarky and didn't snitch in Manson paid the price.
I'm not in a position to know this first hand, nor do I expect ever to be, but it seems to me that it would work like this...
Let's start with the assumption that no snitch, after ratting someone out, goes back into the cafeteria and boasts about it.
Can we agree on this much? ;^)
So how then is a snitch discovered?
Well, they could be seen approaching a guard or other personnel, and this could be social workers/psychologists/substance treatment aids. They might also get called to some form of administrative office.
All could look suspicious after someone suspects a snitch, but my guess is that many, many prisoners would be in this group, so it would be hard to single anyone out, since you, yourself, might also fit this category.
Another way is to simply overhear a snitch, directly, or suspect them, or...WAIT FOR IT, WAIT FOR IT...start a rumor that someone is a snitch, simply to screw them over. And I'll bet this is a pretty frequent occurrence, since as I recall, The Thieves' Code of Honor says nothing about it, so it's generally permitted.
Right? Right?
So in truth, it's damned if you do and damned if you don't. The next level is recognizing that given this, if you've got something to sell, you might just as well do it, because it's always at some other miscreant's whim whether you're branded as a snitch, or not. It has little to do with whether you actually are.
On Virginia Graham and Ronnie Howard, let's not forget the reward monies that were up for grabs. There was no overt promise there, of course, but this fact entered the conversation as their stories were becoming known.
A secondary motivator was very likely to have been the desire to achieve greater leniency when it came to the charges both women were facing at the time.
As for stitcher retaliation, one of the pair (can't remember which) had been transferred from Sybil Brand by the time she was able to share what she knew. I don't know that Sadie would have had many defenders anyway, she seems to have been viewed rather poorly by her fellow inmates.
tobiasragg typed:
I don't know that Sadie would have had many defenders anyway, she seems to have been viewed rather poorly by her fellow inmates.
If you read "Child of Satan, Child of GOD", you'd know this included Patricia Krenwinkel and (especially) Leslie Van Houten.
Myra Elvira reads CoS/CoG on YT if anyone desires a listen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCOt3ang2CE&list=PLsG6LaE-WaCwCYd4Mtd7hFaqlT17NHE8n
shoegazer said:
And you feel pretty certain that Jordan actually heard Atkin's tale, and offered that advice?
Um, yeah.
Is there any independent support for her belated claims?
Robert Hendrickson says in his book that it was through a friend of his financer, Laurence Merrick, that was connected with law enforcement, that they got a chance to speak to Nancy, which they did in early May 1971. So someone in LE knew that she knew something.
I mean, she's not simply another aging loser trying to grasp just a tiny piece of notoriety by way of connection to the Manson phenomenon?
I have only come across her twice in all the time I've followed this saga. The first time was in 2015 when I read "Death to pigs," and the second time was a couple of years ago when watching a Manson documentary that utilized a lot of Robert's film footage at the time. He filmed the Family and some of the lawyers between December '69 and June of '72. I can't say anyone filmed or taped by Robert was glory-hunting, with the possible exception of Paul Watkins. Both Ronnie Howard and Virginia Graham endured death threats for a number of years after the case. Someone shot at Ronnie Howard and she was eventually beaten so badly by 2 guys that she died. Graham had to disappear because of the case. When Bugliosi published "Helter Skelter" in '74, he said she was still a fugitive.
I'm not sure Jordon would want it put out there that she was frequently being busted for heroin...and the very fact that she didn't come forward could mean anything, something or nothing at all....
Of course, she could have been a total bullshitter.
Personally, I think she was genuine.
But both Graham and Howard went to the police because they feared there were further killings planned, and random ones too.
Ah. Civic-minded...
In the system are a number of different types of criminal. They don't all subscribe to the same philosophy. Not every convict will beat up or kill a paedophile...Neither Graham nor Howard were what you'd call hardened criminals. Manipulative, yeah. I can see some jailbirds worrying about the possibility of more murders. And it's not like they just went to the warden to spill all. It took quite a while before either was able to tell what they knew, and even then, they were not believed !
GT, we tend to see this issue of ratting out others for personal gain, among the criminal elements, differently...You, like Kiera Knightly, seem to believe that it's a sort of honor system among thieves
I don't, actually. I think that many criminals would sell out their buds at a moment's notice if they had something to gain by it. Nevertheless, there are also many that believe in the code and wouldn't violate it because they believe something untoward would happen to them if they did.
tobiasragg said:
On Virginia Graham and Ronnie Howard, let's not forget the reward monies that were up for grabs. There was no overt promise there, of course, but this fact entered the conversation as their stories were becoming known
Neither knew about the reward when they first went to the police.
A secondary motivator was very likely to have been the desire to achieve greater leniency when it came to the charges both women were facing at the time
I've never discounted the possibility. But whenever that point is made, the logical conclusion is never followed ¬> that if they didn't "get what they wanted" they would withhold the info.
I honestly don't see what the problem is in using the info you have as a bargaining tool. It would be different if you were asking LE to drop a rape, paedophilia or murder charge. But all of the offences that witnesses in the Manson cases wanted to be dropped were, in the grand scheme of offences, trivial. Stolen engines. Ganja. Forgery.
Furthermore, does the fact that there was reward money or the possibility of leniency make the info on offer untrue ?
I don't know that Sadie would have had many defenders anyway, she seems to have been viewed rather poorly by her fellow inmates
Someone wrote "Sadie Glutz is a snitch" on the walls at Sybil Brand, which freaked her out. This was the beginning of the pressure on her head that culminated in the 2nd dumbest decision of her existence ~ recanting her GJ testimony.
shoegazer said:
if you've got something to sell, you might just as well do it, because it's always at some other miscreant's whim whether you're branded as a snitch, or not
Shoey, have a read of this and this if you haven't already. Do they give you the impression that they were on the make ?
Imagine the heresiologists' online behavior if we didn't have Cielo.
*Blogger just made me click fifteen cars to post this
"Neither knew about the reward when they first went to the police."
Proof?
"I honestly don't see what the problem is in using the info you have as a bargaining tool."
I wasn't aware that anyone was suggesting a problem with this...
GT:
Shoey, have a read of this and this if you haven't already. Do they give you the impression that they were on the make ?
First, thank you for the links. They are both informative and interesting in their own right. I've been trying to get myself to lump thru the trial testimonies of both Graham and Howard, and finally started this AM, regretting the apparent holes in the transcript library on cielodrive.com.
Being as objective as I can, and taking each narrative at several levels, I'll pass along what I think at this point (still digesting it, however, and will want to revisit it periodically).
Reading Graham first, she's more polished, without any doubt, more confident. I see where on at least one occasion she suggests that she can remember more, which to me would seem to be fishing for a response WRT some corresponding benefit for her.
Howard seems more of a street girl, someone more like Atkins, implying as much early on as a rationale for why Atkins felt that she could talk to her (Howard). It seems like when the Howard interview took place, something like a deal had already been made, so this doesn't come up much.
Both claim to have had no prior knowledge of the reward, and are pretty quick to claim that they have no interest in it ("The lady doth protest too much, methinks..."), that the reason they want to talk is essentially the same as Kasabian claims later: this is too extraordinary behavior to allow to continue unchecked.
This we can either believe or not, but there's also the possibility that a little of each comes into play: you get to stop brutal criminals who give all criminals a bad name (everything's relative, you know); and you may get some money and better treatment, as well, risking the possible label of "snitch", for whatever that's worth.
As to the quality of the narrative, it makes me think that Howard's version has value simply as corroborating some of the main points that Graham relates in her narrative. Howard's is jumbled, fragmentary--possibly a result of simply a jumbled mental system further scrambled by drugs--while Graham's is very close to what Atkins says in the Caruso interview, and later to the GJ.
And Kasabian's version is close to both of these.
The claimed dates of first revelation by Atkins seems to be in early November, and the actual interviews with the police occur before Atkins' Caruso interview. This implies that the degree to which Graham and Atkins' version agree (quite closely, even mentioning the dog and that Parent was killed by four shots) could not have been fabricated and developed between them (Graham and Atkins), nor can one readily imagine a reason for them to do so.
To me, at this time, the Graham narrative, claimed to have been told to her by Atkins in early November, and Graham's interview with the police ***before*** Atkins' first official airing of what has come to be recognized as a part of the official narrative, is the strongest evidence so far that the official narrative as to actors, sequence of events, the events themselves, is close to what actually happened at Cielo.
Some of the narrative, as cross-supported by slightly different versions told by Atkins to different people, do tend to support the possibility that someone visited the scene afterward. There is too much certainty coming from different sources, that they did not place anything on Sebring's head. This leaves a) faulty memory or suppressed recollection; b) unawareness that Watson actually did this at some point, but Atkin's was unaware of it; c) Manson or some other Sinister Force did it after the killers left.
It's possible he returned, but the difficulties and risks in doing so make it very unlikely.
Last item: it would be good to examine possible collusion between Howard and Graham to "polish up" their story for police consumption. When/where/how they might have done it.
tobiasragg said:
Proof?
Other than them both saying so in their police interviews and subsequently, there can't be any.
"I honestly don't see what the problem is in using the info you have as a bargaining tool."
I wasn't aware that anyone was suggesting a problem with this
It often strikes me as allusions to dodginess by implication, rather than anything direct and upfront. Sometimes, when the prior criminality of someone is brought up in regards to them having testified, it seems to me to be done so to leave a distinct smell around the person. It's more than saying that what they say should be treated with distrust !
shoegazer said:
Both claim to have had no prior knowledge of the reward, and are pretty quick to claim that they have no interest in it...This we can either believe or not
As things stood on November 25th and 26th 1969, I believe them. As time moved on after that, well, things got decidedly dodgy. Howard says a couple of LAPD cops tried to muscle in on her and the reward and this was long before it was ever decided she'd be one of its recipients.
GT:
WRT to the Howard session with McGann (it was him, right?), did you at first have difficulties in that they both seemed to refer to Cielo as "Benedict Canyon" and the LaBiancas as "Beverley Hills"?
Is that the way you read it?
GT:
Also...
ME: ...no prior knowledge of the reward, and are pretty quick to claim that they have no interest in it.
YOU: As things stood on November 25th and 26th 1969, I believe them.
BOTH parts of the compound statement: no knowledge AND no interest?
I could believe the former, but am skeptical about the latter.
GT et al:
Diverting to the character of Graham: what, exactly, was she?
Seeing her casual claims to knowing Senring, having viewed Cielo as a possible residence (BTW, did Howard ALSO claim this? If so, wow...wow is all I can say) and having later written a "tell all" book, if taken at face value, she was something like the girl that Sebring was hunting for, according to the 2nd progress report:
"He was attempting to contact a girl by the name of Liv Lindland. The girl had stayed with Topaz for several weeks and Sebring was now attempting to locate her. He was intent on spending the night with the girl. According to Topaz, he could not tell Sebring where the girl was, as she had left him several days earlier."
By this I mean that she made her way as a sort of tacit barter prostitute--"I'll screw when you want if I get a, b, and c...". These would be maybe a car to use, a place to stay, and a credit card.
Liv Lindeland, the busty, Scandinavian "actress"?
All good...apologies for asking out of line
Eugene, Oregon (established 1969)
*members throughout the Pac Northwest
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Souls_Motorcycle_Club
Idaho and Oregon (established. 1968 or 1969)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brother_Speed_Motorcycle_Club
By this I mean that she made her way as a sort of tacit barter prostitute--"I'll screw when you want if I get a, b, and c...". These would be maybe a car to use, a place to stay, and a credit card.
You mean a "wife"
Peter:
You mean a "wife"
Hah!
Week to a month duration... :^)
Doug:
Did you folks take the band name ZZ Top to be a reference to the two most popular papers of the era: Zig-Zag and Top?
Aso (musing on the past--funny how this forum does that like no other) there was that macho gesture of eating a roach (not live, of course), and it didn't take long for me to see hand rolls in cases where it was unnecessary to be another "people's gesture"--you know, where you wanted to show how you were one with the grittier underclasses.
Me, early on I bought one of those small, cheap rollers--maybe it was either a Zig-Zag or Top product, and these were far, far better. the body was cylindrical except that you twisted the very ends, one a bit loose.
This was *way* better...
Girls seemed to take pride in rolling, as a social gesture, and it was best to just let them do it, rather than imply that the roller was better.
Beside, you had no hope of screwing the roller later that night, whereas with the girl...
WRT the Graham/Howard revelations
I'm completing the TLB trial testimony for these two now. There are many aspects that are complex, I think.
In some ways, you can envision that Atkins made first contact with Howard simply out of circumstance (beds adjacent), and that later Atkins made a bit of contact with Graham. Then Graham learned from Howard that Atkins had something to tell about TLB, and Graham tried to cultivate Atkins by getting her on as a runner, where they'd be in contact.
From this it would be easy to conclude that Graham exploited this, mainly for her own advantage, possibly intending to cut Howard out of the picture as much as possible, seeing the information as potentially valuable.
Too, if both are to be believed a fair amount, Atkins' behavior WRT to attention/status seeking re TLB was almost mind-boggling. I'll venture to add that some of Atkins' underlying thought processes ("there's a reason why our beds are adjacent", "I know I can trust you, simply by vibes" [both are crude paraphrasings by me] is pretty indicative of the really "spacey" attitude of people who used a lot of drugs in that era.
Hah! THis was the birth of New Age thinking, by the way...Age of Aquarius, my ass...
I didn't really associate the band name with the rollies...could be where they got it from...I always thought that it was something to do with Texas or, Texas blues. I had no reason to think that though.
Fun Fact - my older cousin and her girlfriends and her biker boyfriend and his friends let me tag along with them at a few rock concerts when I was 10/11 years old. One of the concerts that blew my young mind the most was seeing ZZ Top...and they had freakin livestock and buzzards and snakes and armadillos on the stage while they rocked our asses off
ZZ Top Name:
https://ultimateclassicrock.com/billy-gibbons-zz-top-name/
ZZ Top name...
Going to guess without looking...you'll have to trust me on this one...
WE all thought it was from cigarrete papers: Zig Zag and Top
Well, wrong about ZZ Top...
Oh, well...!
I was aware of the music of ZZ Hill...
I should have thought of that
Cool
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