Creep you're welcome. The friend of the blog who questions whether or not this is the escape truck is a good researcher and friend of cm. I tend to believe him.
I was about to ask if that truck had been military surplus and decided to do some checking first. If the Wikipedia article is correct, the Power Wagon name wasn't introduced until 1946. It was applied to the civilian version of the WC series 3/4 ton military truck used from 1942-1945. So, I guess the truck was a military surplus WC and for all but antique truck experts, is probably called a Power Wagon.
There is a Lady caretaker there now. I am sorry, I do not remember her name.
Is this permanent? I know that for some time now in the summer months a woman has been taking up residence in Ballarat, presumably to give Rocky a break. Her name is June and her son sometimes comes with her - they sleep in what was once the gaol.
The new summer caretaker is Jerry. He is there full time. I met him and spent a bit of time with them on my last trip out. One of the younger owners will handle caretaker job in the winter months.
Just watched the 1st episode of the epix doc series. Very good considering what they're usually like. 2020 interview with Bobby he says it was a mescaline deal that the bikers didn't like the drug and hinman was a part time dealer. Dude from the band Love said Charlie didn't bathe and smelled bad; is that true? I thought they had good hygiene until the desert days. Most pointedly, not one mention of Tex, the actual killer! No matter how you slice it (yes i went there), the dynamic which caused the murders revolves around him.
Tex is certainly mentioned in the following episodes. I thought that it was very well done. Nothing new for most of this group but very interesting. First time I see Stephanie talk. It would have been really amazing if some of the others showed up such as Ruthanne Moorehouse and Mary Brunner.
Dan S - Charlie et al certainly don't look that fragrant. Mind you, we weren't much better in 1987, working at a summer camp in Maine. We had to wash in the lake! The bloke in charge was quoted as saying "Why do you think we employ you Brits? You can't swim home!"
Gotta say that BBs explanation of hinman makes the most sense
It makes sense in the same way that "No sense makes sense" makes sense in a kind nonsensical way. The major issue with Bobby's tale is not that it doesn't make sense. It makes abundant sense. It would also "make sense" that elements of the American government were complicit in 9/11. But would it be true ? That is the question, not whether or not it makes sense. And I think in both cases the answer would be in the negative. A point that always seems to get swept under the carpet in regards to Bobby is that in his 2nd trial he fingered Charles Manson as the murderer of Gary Hinman. Well before this Bobby had shown he was a liar when it came to Hinman. Now, I'll happily concede that his initial rambling lies to the police were more than understandable and in that he was no different to any of the other Family murderers when it came to talking to the cops, with the curious exception of Susan Atkins a few days after the Barker arrests who kind of spilled the beans on Bobby to two LASO officers. But beyond that, Bobby has played the fast and loose changing game with the Hinman affair and the real clanger is that the one person who supposedly corroborates him, Charlie, actually does not when you look at his story. Atkins and Brunner certainly don't back him up. DeCarlo doesn't. Davis doesn't. Van Houten doesn't. Krenwinkel doesn't. Kitty doesn't. Charlie, in fact, is the main light {among many} shining on Bobby's "inconsistencies" even though he's supposed to be the one backing up his story. Of course arguably, the only reason Charlie attempted to back Bobby in the first place is because he wanted the copycat to be seen as the sole reason for the Hinman and TLB murders, which he thought would absolve him of any responsibility and deflect attention away from Helter Skelter, the crushing irony of which is that it did the very opposite and actually makes for an even more improbable tale and motive, especially when one looks at actual evidence of who was around at the time, where the copycat is first mooted, the part it played in the trial and the mess contained when one puts together everyone's stories. We've focused on it before, in some of the threads back in early 2016, but Bobby's explanation is thin, poor, contradictory and personally, though I give him the benefit of the doubt when examining it, I don't believe him specifically because giving him the benefit of the doubt {ie, taking his story to be true} reveals the gaping holes in what he says, holes so wide you could have most of London's bikes cycling through with space to spare.
why else the desperation to get the $? They never strong armed anyone else
Dosing Mike Deasy. Danny DeCarlo's wife. Lotsapoppa. Randy Starr. What one can see that summer is an escalation in the violence that existed within the Family {specifically Charlie knocking girls and women about} and it becoming normal to visit that on people that weren't in the fold. It was only a matter of time before it became a way of acquiring money. Garbage runs are all very well in 1968 but even free food from dumpsters loses its thrill and novelty when you've lived at Dennis Wilson's for a bit.
Blogger vettboss said... Rocky is no longer in Ballarat. He has moved to Trona. There is a Lady caretaker there now. I am sorry, I do not remember her name.
Damn, if there is one downgrade in CA from Ballarat, it's Trona...
Mike Deasy (guitar, sitar, producer, songwriter, tamboura) With super pro assistance from Ry Cooder, Jim Gordon, Joe Osborn, Larry Knechtel...as one of dozens of fictional bands that Deasy put together as quickie cash cows during studio downtime, with a rotating cast of top flight first call, studio pros (mostly members of The Wrecking Crew) between 1965-1969...no names on the album covers...making each release out to be by a separate group.
These uber talented musicians are the talents behind The Ceyleib People and, this late 67 single released in advance of their 1968 LP - the psychedelic opus "TANYET"
Deasy was the logical choice to send out to the ranch to record Manson. He was more than capable of capturing pretty much ANY style of music that he was asked to record.
From approx 1964-1969 Deasy was a busy member of The Wrecking Crew and, he had played on hundreds of tracks - tracks of every musical style imaginable...and, working quickly and to the producer's satisfaction or...he wouldn't be called back.
I didn't know that Deasy also played in The Hollywood Swingers/The Kelly Four. This group of musicians was the backing band for the legendary Eddie Cochran from approx early 1959-Cochran's tragic death at age 22 on a UK Tour with his best friend Gene Vincent.
Cochran was a tremendous pioneer in recording music/tracking in the studio. Eddie was the first (Buddy Holly RIGHT BEHIND HIM) to double track vocals, guitars and, to overdub solos and, other extra/nuanced parts. Interesting to note that both Cochran and Holly passed within months of each other...succumbing to catastrophic injuries in crashes...each of them just 22 years old!
Deasy would have learned a LOT from Cochran's recording techniques...firsthand knowledge of minute detail.
Deasy also played in Kip Tyler and the Flips from approx 1958-1961 on and off when he was committed to Cochran. Other members of The Flips were drummer extraordinaire Sandy Nelson and Larry Knechtel.
He did play on two very notable tracks though - "She's My Witch" and, a song that The Cramps later covered, "The Jungle Hop!"
The Ceyleib People "Changes"
https://youtu.be/9ohOb5cWPHk
Kip Tyler and The Flips "The Jungle Hop"
https://youtu.be/aPPSrPveeds
What the hell...The Cramps "Jungle Hop" 1981
https://youtu.be/glvk2lRqQaw
The Hollywood Swingers/The Kelly Four (without Eddie Cochran)
https://youtu.be/k5ET3e9m9rg
That tune was previously released by Cochran but re-jigged as a Kelly Four 7" release featuring the drum histrionics of Sandy Nelson and, some additional guitar sizzle from Deasy.
I could mention dozens of other Deasy quickie lps but, these 3 specific examples of his range and, his lofty reputation in the LA music scene should give you a clearer picture of (again!) the lofty surroundings that Charlie slithered in and, out of.
Tex, the actual killer! No matter how you slice it the dynamic which caused the murders revolves around him
I don't go along with that. Firstly, Charlie was the first guy to actually go and put a bullet in someone. Yes, he may have been mopping up a mess that Tex had caused but it is by no means a foregone conclusion that it was going to have to end in a death. What's even more amusing is that the way Charlie always told the story subsequently, he actually hands the gun to Lotsapoppa and says OK, kill me. It is that which leads to me suspect that Manson went to that apartment that night with murder in mind. Not because I believe him ~ I don't ~ but because he went with a gun, he went with back up {TJ}, he went with a plan that did not involve him pulling the trigger though it was going to be pulled and there is no way at the time Tex's drug burn went down that Tex could have spent $2700 which means that money was recoverable if so desired. It was not desired. We've speculated for a long time whether or not Manson going to Rosina's apartment the way he did was in a kind of self defence preparation but I've never been able to get past the intent aspect beforehand sitting squarely with the outcome of Lotsapoppa being shot to be killed. I've long suspected that many people that get involved in either control, crime, violence or violent crime mull through in their minds what it would be like to either kill someone or have someone killed. It's pretty obvious that Charles Manson housed an attitude of "I've been shat on all my life; why should I care about people that would otherwise shit on me ?" He said this in a number of different ways over the years. He even said it before his trial and during his trial in his testimony. Tex may have burned Crowe but the eventual fallout from that came from Manson and Manson alone. There was never any comeback on Tex. And just 3 days later when he told Linda to go filch the $5000 and eventually her husband and Charlie Melton came to get their money back, it was Charlie that saw them off with violent intent and a weapon {and remember, at this point he believed he'd killed Crowe}, with no comeback on Tex or fallout in his direction. One of the reasons none of the alternative motives that seek to exonerate Charlie for these murders work is because when one takes his own words into account as well as those of the involved closer to the actual time, it is easy to see that Manson is the fulcrum for all of the actions of violence that went down. Now, that doesn't absolve Tex from being, as Bugliosi described him, the chief Tate~LaBianca killer or remove the suspicion of his involvement in Shorty's death but it sure as the sky is above us tells us that these murders did not originate because of him.
Deasy was the logical choice to send out to the ranch to record Manson. He was more than capable of capturing pretty much ANY style of music that he was asked to record
In addition to that, he had a mobile recording unit which was something that was rare at the time but which went on to be very popular and much used during the 70s {Ronnie Lane of the [Small] Faces and the Rolling Stones had one ~ some of Zeppelin's greatest LPs were recorded on the Stones' one as were many others} and in many ways was the seed that eventually germinated in the whole home recording boom.
Cochran was a tremendous pioneer in recording music/tracking in the studio. Eddie was the first (Buddy Holly RIGHT BEHIND HIM) to double track vocals, guitars and, to overdub solos and, other extra/nuanced parts
Wouldn't that have been Les Paul ? He was doing those things as early as the late 1940s.
a clearer picture of (again!) the lofty surroundings that Charlie slithered in and, out of
I guess you could look at it like that. Manson did tend to lionize his Hollywood and LA musician connections. But I find that it's not always quite as highbrow as it is sometimes painted. For instance, it's no secret that Terry Melcher went to hear Charlie play music. He got Mike Deasy involved partly so he wouldn't have to be, kind of letting him down lightly by utilizing Jakobson and Deasy. Deasy's stellar reputation isn't really anything to do with the circles Charlie moved in; it's not like Charlie actually sought out Deasy because he knew who he was and figured that he could be of some use to him.
Dan S said...
Dude from the band Love said Charlie didn't bathe and smelled bad; is that true?
It's kind of a mixed bag. You get differing reports from different people. Paul Watkins said that Charlie was a stickler for hygiene and clean, sweet smelling vaginas, Al Springer's outsider view was that the Family and their surroundings turned him off as he prided himself on his cleanliness and he viewed them as dirty. Stephanie Schram said the ranch was yukky and dirty as was the food, but then if you watch some of Robert Hendrickson's footage, you see people bathing in the waters there. The rangers that arrested them in the desert said the place had shit in it and was filthy and they smelled foul. So I guess it's one of those instances where it's not really fair to comment because they were caught at different times by different people. If the only time in 15 years you were ever seen by your postal worker was once when you'd just woken up and were collecting a parcel and it had been a hot night and you'd sweated a lot and had not yet brushed your teeth and smelled a little 'ripe' would their lasting impression of you be a fair and accurate one ? And what if that same morning, the meter reader had also seen you for the only time ?
Good argument for the "Charlie intent", Grim. Interesting his plan was to have TJ did the shooting of crowe. I Will saythat, and i know you agree with this part, there's nuance and not clear black and white involved in the whole thing. I believe Charlie to be culpable, the environment of easy murder was created by him. He went along on the second night "to show (off) 'em how it's done" so he's directly involved in Labianca and Shea. Tex's dumbassery is key to the results though.
The govt WAS involved in 911 (hey we elected haliburton so what do you expect? Or did we? How much better would the world be if gore had won?) Name one other example of strong arming for money? The Examples you gave are not money related. I agree the violence was escalating...
The command, "Do what [insert male name here] tells you to do," was a pimp talking to his stable. Tex may have been drunk with power the head pimp gave him the keys. "Leave something witchy," also is accepted. May not be reality. Ahhhh gotta go to work!
The entire Tex led aftermath is what gives the events their horror. After all, murder is ultimately a results led affair and it was what Tex did that made the papers, kept making the news, got him and the others convicted and sentenced to death and why he remains in jail with little real hope of ever being paroled, despite the changes he's made in his life. No doubting that. But it is so important to understand what brought him and the others to that point where they were actually ready and willing to kill. He, Pat, Bruce & Bobby hadn't shown up until then {as far as we have ever been informed} any propensity or desire towards violence, let alone murderous violence. That wasn't true of Charlie, Susan, Clem or Leslie. Or even Bill Vance. And with Larry Jones, one can see it was the start up of his, shall we say, violence of mind. But going back to Tex, it is easy to see why Charlie and the women always take centre stage and he lurks in the shadows. The murders didn't happen because of Tex. He was the most effective instrument in carrying them out.
Name one other example of strong arming for money? The Examples you gave are not money related
Lotsapoppa is. But my general point was that there was an escalation of violence. The violence didn't just appear with tales of HS and it wasn't just a reflection of the more violent atmosphere among young people in the USA and western wold post '67. It was part of Charlie from relatively early on ~ he was no stranger to rape or clouting. It was inevitable that in an arena where he was the undisputed leader, that would start to work its way out from him on his group to being visited on others, by the Family, at his instruction or by his example, for whatever reason. And given that they needed money, that some of those tactics would sooner or later be employed to get it. Part of the Cielo mission was to "get all of" the inhabitants money "and kill whoever was there." The Family used to be given money ~ part of why Pat & Squeaky were so impressed with Charlie was that he always seemed to come through financially which deepened their trust in him. Sandy turned money over to him. Juanita turned money over to him and so did other people and we're not talking peanuts. But by the summer, they were stealing people's money {Abigail Folger, Charles Melton, Lotsapoppa, Gary}, threatening them {Gary again}, demanding it {Dennis Wilson}, attempting to kill them in order to keep it when they were found out {Poppa again}, acting as though any money on the planet really was theirs as Linda said Tex had told her on their first meeting. Summer '69 was the start of that strong arming of people for money.
Also note that TJ couldn't do it. So Charlie's murder orders (or ramblings) only work on someone ready to murder
I can see where you're going with this and it's a legit argument from just about any logical viewpoint. But I think it's a nuanced point, as are many. Murder is an odd thing in many peoples' minds. There are people that will murder but who will not view their actions as murder. Many of us happily label terrorists, hit men, gang bangers, invading soldiers and the like as murderers but they certainly don't see themselves that way. So when a phrase like "ready to murder" is used, I think the context is crucial. What does it mean and from whose viewpoint are looking ? One of the women on the female "death row" that the 3 women were on when initially convicted was a murderer called Jennifer {Karlene Faith refers to her as "Linda"}. She deliberately murdered her lover's wife. She didn't see herself as being in a war of any kind. There wasn't any moral ambiguity in her mind about society's values on one hand and hers on the other. That's not the case with the Family. It's not very satisfying to look at things like that. I know it is frequently put that "these people just enjoyed killing and wanted to kill" but it is such a paradox that this is too simplistic an explanation. Now, don't get me wrong, it's not a way of saying that they were nice kids really, and they just fell into bad company. In a way, for me the paradox makes it {and them} worse because then, one is dealing with all kinds of unknowns and it also gives us a ready made excuse not to look at ourselves, our societies/cultures, our values etc. Also, it causes one to ask this ¬> what does one make of people like Cathy Gillies, Ruth Anne Moorehouse and Vern Plumlee who were "ready to kill" {ie, couldn't wait To or were ready to follow the group out on the night of the LaBianca killings} or Brooks Poston and Juanita Wildebush who both admit that at one point they were so under Charlie's spell they would have killed if he'd told them to ? Is it so simple to suppose that on the morning of August 8th, Tex and Pat were, in their own minds ready to kill ? Neither had shown any history of violence, even minor. They were in the system for such trifling matters. That's partly why I've long leaned towards the idea that even though their prints were found at the scene of the crime, presuming the perps kept their mouths shut, a tenacious lawyer playing their cards right could have got a walk for both. We'll never of course know this, but how many of the killers would have ended up on death row independent of Charlie ? It's kind of ironic that the two of whom we have prior knowledge of a readiness to kill {Susan and Leslie} turned out to be the ones that actually baulked when it actually came to it. So for me, it's not a simple matter that can be fixed with a simple sentence. There's a whole universe of nuance and paradox in there.
Tex woke up that fateful morning ready to impress his peer group. Charlie made the murder part of it seem to be nothing worse than stealing typewriters
All fo them. Susan confessed to anybody and everybody. Pat and Tex left prints. I believe Leslie confessed to other family members not part of the conspiracy. Probably the only one who would not have been convicted was Charlie.
I am coming more and more to your way of thinking these days since I turned 90 back in April. I think a core argument that should be made is that Charlie had great instincts but the education of a twelve year old. He had a good thing going with his commune but had to fuck it up. Hell in the courtroom he could have walked but he screwed that pooch as well.
Charlie had GREAT instincts. Charlie was dumb as shit.
Charlie probably respected tj more for not doing it
I can only think of three places where Charlie's reaction to TJ in relation to the Lotsapoppa incident is recorded and none of them are positive or respectful. Now granted, Danny DeCarlo may not hold much credibility with people but he described Charlie whaling into TJ for not pulling the trigger; True, Nuel Emmons may not hold much credibility with people but in his book "Charlie" is critical of TJ for not helping Charlie during the incident; But George Stimson does have Charlie cred and he quotes Charlie extensively in his book and on the Crowe shooting Charlie hardly shows TJ respect for although he does say TJ was the only one to back him up by going with him {to give credit where it's due}, he describes him as having frozen with fear and peeing himself. So somehow respecting him for not doing it is not the conclusion I would reach !
I've always thought all those wayward members that returned - TJ, Bo, Kitty, Watkins, Flynn,....all started rejoining the group once Manson was safely incarcerated. Manson was the catalyst for all the violence, and his physical presence seemed to instill fear into the group.
I've always thought all those wayward members that returned - TJ, Bo, Kitty, Watkins, Flynn,....all started rejoining the group once Manson was safely incarcerated
That's a really good point. You could even add Barbara Hoyt to that number in a roundabout way.
CarolMR said...
ColScott, did you ever post your review of ONCE UPON A TIME IN HOLLYWOOD?
Susan confessed to anybody and everybody. Pat and Tex left prints. I believe Leslie confessed to other family members not part of the conspiracy. Probably the only one who would not have been convicted was Charlie
I couldn't disagree more. Firstly, on what basis do you approach from ? When I speak on this I am basing my conclusions on one thing; that all of the perps keep schtuum. Imagine that they all kept their mouths shut. On that basis, only Van Houten is at risk and that from Dianne Lake. Because if Lake spoke to the cops of Leslie saying she stabbed someone already dead, and it was found that some stab wounds were post mortem, then that is powerful corroboration. Leslie was no med student so how could she even suspect post mortem wounds unless she was there ? But the others ? Nothing ties Susan to Cielo if she shuts up. Linda is virtually a spook without anyone to speak of her involvement. Finding Tex and Pat's prints only establishes that Pat was there after Tuesday noon and Tex sometime on the Friday. It doesn't prove them guilty of murder. Especially when one considers that 25 readable prints were never identified and that Pat and Tex not only had no continuous criminal history, but were in the system for trifles and nothing even remotely approaching violence. You'd hardly look at their records and say "Hey ! These two look good for the job." Their prints were identified after Atkins had talked and it was more a case of corroboration that there was something to her story. Remember, one of the big shocks was that young women were involved. In the history of criminal law, how many times have we seen perps who looked dead and buried at one point acquitted, because of a good lawyer ? [Cue Mario !] Without Atkins blabbing to Ronnie Howard & Virginia Graham, without Manson boasting to Al Springer, without Clem & Charlie bragging to Paul Watkins about Shorty etc, as Paul Fitzgerald told a journalist in Dec '69 "all the prosecution has is 2 fingerprints." These prove nothing in terms of committing murder. Fitzgerald actually at one point mooted that Pat's prints were at Cielo because she'd visited as a friend. Had there not been blabbing and Mrs Chapman said she washed the Krenwinkel door on the Tuesday, how could she be a proven murderer if she said she visited on Wednesday or Thursday when Mrs Chapman wasn't there ? Obviously, we can all be wise in retrospect but retrospect is all we've ever had.
Grim- all of the points you make are some of the same points I consider when we discuss motive. No, the points you make don’t prove HS, or disprove the copycat motive theory, but when taken in context with all of the evidence, testimony, ‘confessions’, behavior prior to the murders, behavior post murders, to me, it paints a pretty clear picture.
I’ve always felt Susan’s blabbing was a result of her knowing she was never getting out of prison- because she KNEW she was involved in the murders. The paranoia in the family was real. The escalation of behavior (grand theft auto- rape claims- cops coming out because of machine gun firing, the ‘snipers’ trained on the fuzz during a visit, the Lotsapoppa shooting, the killing of Hinman for $$$, and her involvement in Tate/LB etc etc - she knew it was over.
After they were caught, their antics continued into the courtroom and on the sidewalks of Los Angeles furthering the court of public opinion to be not in their favor.
To me it’s a very black and white case of “if A, then B and C” where the passive clues as to WHY, fit. And I personally believe Susan’s first confessions are the closest thing to the truth (minus Linda’s 18 days solidifying their fates) that we’ll ever get.
I am pretty sure that if they all kept their mouths shut, Dianne Lake would not have said anything about what Leslie told her. I don't believe that she said a word until the trial was already to begin or had already began.
Well, I'm sure you're reflecting on OJ Simpson himself and The OJ Simpson Case Criminal Trial.
There are MANY items that I can bring out pertaining to the case that haven't gone Mainstream-Media yet. (Maybe another time)
But I'll say this. For a certain amount of time in The OJ Case, Simpson appeared to be in "REAL-HOT-WATER," so to speak. So you're conclusion in the case? (Enter Attorney Johnnie Cochran) I can go with that for a certain period of time.
Mario George Nitrini 111 ----- The OJ Simpson Case
“Grim, thank you so much for the link! I actually had read the post before, just forgot about it.”
I want to read this review too....have just watched the film and hated the ending. Yeuch - pure Tarantino. Grim is like a human camera or human encyclopaedia. It’s unnerving. I can barely remember last night and he pulls things out of some random shit he looked at in the 80s!!
“Grim, thank you so much for the link! I actually had read the post before, just forgot about it.”
I want to read this review too....have just watched the film and hated the ending. Yeuch - pure Tarantino. Grim is like a human camera or human encyclopaedia. It’s unnerving. I can barely remember last night and he pulls things out of some random shit he looked at in the 80s!!
According to Paul Watkins' book, Beausoleil and a girlfriend drove up to Barker with two powerwagons in late '68. So where did BB get these vehicles?
According to Bob Murphy in his book "Desert Shadows", shortly after the Michigan skiploader was torched on 9/19/1969, Park Ranger Dick Powell was searching side roads and canyons and came upon Nancy Pitman, Ouisch, Soupspoon Lane, and a few others with a red Toyota 4-wheel drive jeep that he was searching for. Powell surreptitiously wrote down the plate number from the jeep, and later called it in to park headquarters. Murphy wrote: "Late in the afternoon of September 23, (Chief Park Ranger Homer) Leach radioed Powell that the license plate on the red Toyota was registered to a four-wheel drive Dodge Power Wagon that belonged to Gail Beausoleil of the Los Angeles area. While this doesn't answer the question of where Bobby and Gail Beausoleil got the power wagons, it would seem they registered them in their names.
I am pretty sure that if they all kept their mouths shut, Dianne Lake would not have said anything about what Leslie told her. I don't believe that she said a word until the trial was already to begin or had already began
Dianne Lake is interesting in this aspect because on December '69, she's lying to the Grand Jury on a number of matters pertaining to the murders but by the 30th she's telling the cops what she knows about the LaBianca murder and landing Tex and Leslie right in it.
Cool video with a lot of detail! Thanks for posting, Matt!
ReplyDeleteHard to believe more people haven’t taken pieces of it as souvenirs and it’s still that intact.
AstroCreep said...
ReplyDeleteHard to believe more people haven’t taken pieces of it as souvenirs and it’s still that intact.
It sits directly in front of the Ballarat General Store, so Rocky keeps an eye on it since he never leaves.
Gotcha- thanks Matt! Is he the cat that drug it outta the salt flats? Does he have any back story with the family or is that before his time?
DeleteFor comparison check out our own post from seven years back https://www.mansonblog.com/2013/06/texs-power-wagon.html?m=1
ReplyDeletePatty- thanks for the link. Was an interesting read.
DeleteCreep you're welcome. The friend of the blog who questions whether or not this is the escape truck is a good researcher and friend of cm. I tend to believe him.
DeleteAstroCreep said...
ReplyDeleteDoes he have any back story with the family or is that before his time?
His (deceased) dad did. We were lucky enough to meet him on our first trip out there.
I don’t know why these ppl videos never play for me. Media works great on all the other sites I visit. It bums me out. Really cool looking old truck.
ReplyDeleteI was about to ask if that truck had been military surplus and decided to do some checking first. If the Wikipedia article is correct, the Power Wagon name wasn't introduced until 1946. It was applied to the civilian version of the WC series 3/4 ton military truck used from 1942-1945. So, I guess the truck was a military surplus WC and for all but antique truck experts, is probably called a Power Wagon.
ReplyDeleteCharles referred to this truck as military surplus
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ReplyDeleteRocky is no longer in Ballarat. He has moved to Trona. There is a Lady caretaker there now. I am sorry, I do not remember her name.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteThere is a Lady caretaker there now. I am sorry, I do not remember her name.
Is this permanent? I know that for some time now in the summer months a woman has been taking up residence in Ballarat, presumably to give Rocky a break. Her name is June and her son sometimes comes with her - they sleep in what was once the gaol.
The new summer caretaker is Jerry. He is there full time. I met him and spent a bit of time with them on my last trip out. One of the younger owners will handle caretaker job in the winter months.
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ReplyDeleteJust watched the 1st episode of the epix doc series. Very good considering what they're usually like. 2020 interview with Bobby he says it was a mescaline deal that the bikers didn't like the drug and hinman was a part time dealer.
ReplyDeleteDude from the band Love said Charlie didn't bathe and smelled bad; is that true? I thought they had good hygiene until the desert days.
Most pointedly, not one mention of Tex, the actual killer! No matter how you slice it (yes i went there), the dynamic which caused the murders revolves around him.
Tex is certainly mentioned in the following episodes. I thought that it was very well done. Nothing new for most of this group but very interesting. First time I see Stephanie talk. It would have been really amazing if some of the others showed up such as Ruthanne Moorehouse and Mary Brunner.
ReplyDeleteDan S - Charlie et al certainly don't look that fragrant. Mind you, we weren't much better in 1987, working at a summer camp in Maine. We had to wash in the lake! The bloke in charge was quoted as saying "Why do you think we employ you Brits? You can't swim home!"
ReplyDeleteGotta say that BBs explanation of hinman makes the most sense....why else the desperation to get the$? They never strong armed anyone else
ReplyDeleteDid tex's frat president get in trouble for the typewriter fiasco?
ReplyDeleteDan S said:
ReplyDeleteGotta say that BBs explanation of hinman makes the most sense
It makes sense in the same way that "No sense makes sense" makes sense in a kind nonsensical way.
The major issue with Bobby's tale is not that it doesn't make sense. It makes abundant sense. It would also "make sense" that elements of the American government were complicit in 9/11. But would it be true ? That is the question, not whether or not it makes sense. And I think in both cases the answer would be in the negative.
A point that always seems to get swept under the carpet in regards to Bobby is that in his 2nd trial he fingered Charles Manson as the murderer of Gary Hinman. Well before this Bobby had shown he was a liar when it came to Hinman. Now, I'll happily concede that his initial rambling lies to the police were more than understandable and in that he was no different to any of the other Family murderers when it came to talking to the cops, with the curious exception of Susan Atkins a few days after the Barker arrests who kind of spilled the beans on Bobby to two LASO officers. But beyond that, Bobby has played the fast and loose changing game with the Hinman affair and the real clanger is that the one person who supposedly corroborates him, Charlie, actually does not when you look at his story. Atkins and Brunner certainly don't back him up. DeCarlo doesn't. Davis doesn't. Van Houten doesn't. Krenwinkel doesn't. Kitty doesn't. Charlie, in fact, is the main light {among many} shining on Bobby's "inconsistencies" even though he's supposed to be the one backing up his story.
Of course arguably, the only reason Charlie attempted to back Bobby in the first place is because he wanted the copycat to be seen as the sole reason for the Hinman and TLB murders, which he thought would absolve him of any responsibility and deflect attention away from Helter Skelter, the crushing irony of which is that it did the very opposite and actually makes for an even more improbable tale and motive, especially when one looks at actual evidence of who was around at the time, where the copycat is first mooted, the part it played in the trial and the mess contained when one puts together everyone's stories.
We've focused on it before, in some of the threads back in early 2016, but Bobby's explanation is thin, poor, contradictory and personally, though I give him the benefit of the doubt when examining it, I don't believe him specifically because giving him the benefit of the doubt {ie, taking his story to be true} reveals the gaping holes in what he says, holes so wide you could have most of London's bikes cycling through with space to spare.
Dan S said...
ReplyDeletewhy else the desperation to get the $? They never strong armed anyone else
Dosing Mike Deasy.
Danny DeCarlo's wife.
Lotsapoppa.
Randy Starr.
What one can see that summer is an escalation in the violence that existed within the Family {specifically Charlie knocking girls and women about} and it becoming normal to visit that on people that weren't in the fold. It was only a matter of time before it became a way of acquiring money. Garbage runs are all very well in 1968 but even free food from dumpsters loses its thrill and novelty when you've lived at Dennis Wilson's for a bit.
Blogger vettboss said...
ReplyDeleteRocky is no longer in Ballarat. He has moved to Trona. There is a Lady caretaker there now. I am sorry, I do not remember her name.
Damn, if there is one downgrade in CA from Ballarat, it's Trona...
Is Trona the one that smells?
ReplyDeleteYes whut, it's distinct and rather unpleasant
DeleteMike Deasy (guitar, sitar, producer, songwriter, tamboura)
ReplyDeleteWith super pro assistance from Ry Cooder, Jim Gordon, Joe Osborn, Larry Knechtel...as one of dozens of fictional bands that Deasy put together as quickie cash cows during studio downtime, with a rotating cast of top flight first call, studio pros (mostly members of The Wrecking Crew) between 1965-1969...no names on the album covers...making each release out to be by a separate group.
These uber talented musicians are the talents behind The
Ceyleib People and, this late 67 single released in advance of their 1968 LP - the psychedelic opus "TANYET"
Deasy was the logical choice to send out to the ranch to record Manson. He was more than capable of capturing pretty much ANY style of music that he was asked to record.
From approx 1964-1969 Deasy was a busy member of The Wrecking Crew and, he had played on hundreds of tracks - tracks of every musical style imaginable...and, working quickly and to the producer's satisfaction or...he wouldn't be called back.
I didn't know that Deasy also played in The Hollywood Swingers/The Kelly Four. This group of musicians was the backing band for the legendary Eddie Cochran from approx early 1959-Cochran's tragic death at age 22 on a UK Tour with his best friend Gene Vincent.
Cochran was a tremendous pioneer in recording music/tracking in the studio. Eddie was the first (Buddy Holly RIGHT BEHIND HIM) to double track vocals, guitars and, to overdub solos and, other extra/nuanced parts. Interesting to note that both Cochran and Holly passed within months of each other...succumbing to catastrophic injuries in crashes...each of them just 22 years old!
Deasy would have learned a LOT from Cochran's recording techniques...firsthand knowledge of minute detail.
Deasy also played in Kip Tyler and the Flips from approx 1958-1961 on and off when he was committed to Cochran. Other members of The Flips were drummer extraordinaire Sandy Nelson and Larry Knechtel.
He did play on two very notable tracks though - "She's My Witch" and, a song that The Cramps later covered, "The Jungle Hop!"
The Ceyleib People "Changes"
https://youtu.be/9ohOb5cWPHk
Kip Tyler and The Flips "The Jungle Hop"
https://youtu.be/aPPSrPveeds
What the hell...The Cramps "Jungle Hop" 1981
https://youtu.be/glvk2lRqQaw
The Hollywood Swingers/The Kelly Four (without Eddie Cochran)
https://youtu.be/k5ET3e9m9rg
That tune was previously released by Cochran but re-jigged as a Kelly Four 7" release featuring the drum histrionics of Sandy Nelson and, some additional guitar sizzle from Deasy.
I could mention dozens of other Deasy quickie lps but, these 3 specific examples of his range and, his lofty reputation in the LA music scene should give you a clearer picture of (again!) the lofty surroundings that Charlie slithered in and, out of.
Kinda crazy
Oops
ReplyDeleteForgot about "She's My Witch" from 1958
Kip Tyler and the Flips (Deasy's guitar playing is really great here!)
https://youtu.be/usLmB9Zhul0
Patty,
ReplyDeleteThanks for confirming that.
Whut
Dan S said...
ReplyDeleteTex, the actual killer! No matter how you slice it the dynamic which caused the murders revolves around him
I don't go along with that. Firstly, Charlie was the first guy to actually go and put a bullet in someone. Yes, he may have been mopping up a mess that Tex had caused but it is by no means a foregone conclusion that it was going to have to end in a death. What's even more amusing is that the way Charlie always told the story subsequently, he actually hands the gun to Lotsapoppa and says OK, kill me. It is that which leads to me suspect that Manson went to that apartment that night with murder in mind. Not because I believe him ~ I don't ~ but because he went with a gun, he went with back up {TJ}, he went with a plan that did not involve him pulling the trigger though it was going to be pulled and there is no way at the time Tex's drug burn went down that Tex could have spent $2700 which means that money was recoverable if so desired.
It was not desired.
We've speculated for a long time whether or not Manson going to Rosina's apartment the way he did was in a kind of self defence preparation but I've never been able to get past the intent aspect beforehand sitting squarely with the outcome of Lotsapoppa being shot to be killed.
I've long suspected that many people that get involved in either control, crime, violence or violent crime mull through in their minds what it would be like to either kill someone or have someone killed. It's pretty obvious that Charles Manson housed an attitude of "I've been shat on all my life; why should I care about people that would otherwise shit on me ?" He said this in a number of different ways over the years. He even said it before his trial and during his trial in his testimony.
Tex may have burned Crowe but the eventual fallout from that came from Manson and Manson alone. There was never any comeback on Tex. And just 3 days later when he told Linda to go filch the $5000 and eventually her husband and Charlie Melton came to get their money back, it was Charlie that saw them off with violent intent and a weapon {and remember, at this point he believed he'd killed Crowe}, with no comeback on Tex or fallout in his direction.
One of the reasons none of the alternative motives that seek to exonerate Charlie for these murders work is because when one takes his own words into account as well as those of the involved closer to the actual time, it is easy to see that Manson is the fulcrum for all of the actions of violence that went down. Now, that doesn't absolve Tex from being, as Bugliosi described him, the chief Tate~LaBianca killer or remove the suspicion of his involvement in Shorty's death but it sure as the sky is above us tells us that these murders did not originate because of him.
Doug said...
ReplyDeleteDeasy was the logical choice to send out to the ranch to record Manson. He was more than capable of capturing pretty much ANY style of music that he was asked to record
In addition to that, he had a mobile recording unit which was something that was rare at the time but which went on to be very popular and much used during the 70s {Ronnie Lane of the [Small] Faces and the Rolling Stones had one ~ some of Zeppelin's greatest LPs were recorded on the Stones' one as were many others} and in many ways was the seed that eventually germinated in the whole home recording boom.
Cochran was a tremendous pioneer in recording music/tracking in the studio. Eddie was the first (Buddy Holly RIGHT BEHIND HIM) to double track vocals, guitars and, to overdub solos and, other extra/nuanced parts
Wouldn't that have been Les Paul ? He was doing those things as early as the late 1940s.
a clearer picture of (again!) the lofty surroundings that Charlie slithered in and, out of
I guess you could look at it like that. Manson did tend to lionize his Hollywood and LA musician connections. But I find that it's not always quite as highbrow as it is sometimes painted. For instance, it's no secret that Terry Melcher went to hear Charlie play music. He got Mike Deasy involved partly so he wouldn't have to be, kind of letting him down lightly by utilizing Jakobson and Deasy. Deasy's stellar reputation isn't really anything to do with the circles Charlie moved in; it's not like Charlie actually sought out Deasy because he knew who he was and figured that he could be of some use to him.
Dan S said...
Dude from the band Love said Charlie didn't bathe and smelled bad; is that true?
It's kind of a mixed bag. You get differing reports from different people. Paul Watkins said that Charlie was a stickler for hygiene and clean, sweet smelling vaginas, Al Springer's outsider view was that the Family and their surroundings turned him off as he prided himself on his cleanliness and he viewed them as dirty. Stephanie Schram said the ranch was yukky and dirty as was the food, but then if you watch some of Robert Hendrickson's footage, you see people bathing in the waters there. The rangers that arrested them in the desert said the place had shit in it and was filthy and they smelled foul. So I guess it's one of those instances where it's not really fair to comment because they were caught at different times by different people.
If the only time in 15 years you were ever seen by your postal worker was once when you'd just woken up and were collecting a parcel and it had been a hot night and you'd sweated a lot and had not yet brushed your teeth and smelled a little 'ripe' would their lasting impression of you be a fair and accurate one ? And what if that same morning, the meter reader had also seen you for the only time ?
Good argument for the "Charlie intent", Grim. Interesting his plan was to have TJ did the shooting of crowe. I Will saythat, and i know you agree with this part, there's nuance and not clear black and white involved in the whole thing. I believe Charlie to be culpable, the environment of easy murder was created by him. He went along on the second night "to show (off) 'em how it's done" so he's directly involved in Labianca and Shea.
ReplyDeleteTex's dumbassery is key to the results though.
The govt WAS involved in 911 (hey we elected haliburton so what do you expect? Or did we? How much better would the world be if gore had won?)
ReplyDeleteName one other example of strong arming for money? The Examples you gave are not money related. I agree the violence was escalating...
Also note that TJ couldn't do it. So Charlie's murder orders (or ramblings) only work on someone ready to murder
ReplyDeleteThe command, "Do what [insert male name here] tells you to do," was a pimp talking to his stable. Tex may have been drunk with power the head pimp gave him the keys. "Leave something witchy," also is accepted. May not be reality. Ahhhh gotta go to work!
ReplyDeleteHendrix died exactly 50 years ago today. Another mystery. Purple Haze...
ReplyDeleteDan S said:
ReplyDeleteTex's dumbassery is key to the results though
The entire Tex led aftermath is what gives the events their horror. After all, murder is ultimately a results led affair and it was what Tex did that made the papers, kept making the news, got him and the others convicted and sentenced to death and why he remains in jail with little real hope of ever being paroled, despite the changes he's made in his life.
No doubting that.
But it is so important to understand what brought him and the others to that point where they were actually ready and willing to kill. He, Pat, Bruce & Bobby hadn't shown up until then {as far as we have ever been informed} any propensity or desire towards violence, let alone murderous violence. That wasn't true of Charlie, Susan, Clem or Leslie. Or even Bill Vance. And with Larry Jones, one can see it was the start up of his, shall we say, violence of mind.
But going back to Tex, it is easy to see why Charlie and the women always take centre stage and he lurks in the shadows. The murders didn't happen because of Tex. He was the most effective instrument in carrying them out.
Name one other example of strong arming for money? The Examples you gave are not money related
Lotsapoppa is.
But my general point was that there was an escalation of violence. The violence didn't just appear with tales of HS and it wasn't just a reflection of the more violent atmosphere among young people in the USA and western wold post '67. It was part of Charlie from relatively early on ~ he was no stranger to rape or clouting. It was inevitable that in an arena where he was the undisputed leader, that would start to work its way out from him on his group to being visited on others, by the Family, at his instruction or by his example, for whatever reason. And given that they needed money, that some of those tactics would sooner or later be employed to get it. Part of the Cielo mission was to "get all of" the inhabitants money "and kill whoever was there."
The Family used to be given money ~ part of why Pat & Squeaky were so impressed with Charlie was that he always seemed to come through financially which deepened their trust in him. Sandy turned money over to him. Juanita turned money over to him and so did other people and we're not talking peanuts. But by the summer, they were stealing people's money {Abigail Folger, Charles Melton, Lotsapoppa, Gary}, threatening them {Gary again}, demanding it {Dennis Wilson}, attempting to kill them in order to keep it when they were found out {Poppa again}, acting as though any money on the planet really was theirs as Linda said Tex had told her on their first meeting. Summer '69 was the start of that strong arming of people for money.
Dan S said:
ReplyDeleteAlso note that TJ couldn't do it. So Charlie's murder orders (or ramblings) only work on someone ready to murder
I can see where you're going with this and it's a legit argument from just about any logical viewpoint.
But I think it's a nuanced point, as are many.
Murder is an odd thing in many peoples' minds. There are people that will murder but who will not view their actions as murder. Many of us happily label terrorists, hit men, gang bangers, invading soldiers and the like as murderers but they certainly don't see themselves that way. So when a phrase like "ready to murder" is used, I think the context is crucial. What does it mean and from whose viewpoint are looking ?
One of the women on the female "death row" that the 3 women were on when initially convicted was a murderer called Jennifer {Karlene Faith refers to her as "Linda"}. She deliberately murdered her lover's wife. She didn't see herself as being in a war of any kind. There wasn't any moral ambiguity in her mind about society's values on one hand and hers on the other.
That's not the case with the Family.
It's not very satisfying to look at things like that. I know it is frequently put that "these people just enjoyed killing and wanted to kill" but it is such a paradox that this is too simplistic an explanation. Now, don't get me wrong, it's not a way of saying that they were nice kids really, and they just fell into bad company. In a way, for me the paradox makes it {and them} worse because then, one is dealing with all kinds of unknowns and it also gives us a ready made excuse not to look at ourselves, our societies/cultures, our values etc.
Also, it causes one to ask this ¬> what does one make of people like Cathy Gillies, Ruth Anne Moorehouse and Vern Plumlee who were "ready to kill" {ie, couldn't wait To or were ready to follow the group out on the night of the LaBianca killings} or Brooks Poston and Juanita Wildebush who both admit that at one point they were so under Charlie's spell they would have killed if he'd told them to ?
Is it so simple to suppose that on the morning of August 8th, Tex and Pat were, in their own minds ready to kill ? Neither had shown any history of violence, even minor. They were in the system for such trifling matters. That's partly why I've long leaned towards the idea that even though their prints were found at the scene of the crime, presuming the perps kept their mouths shut, a tenacious lawyer playing their cards right could have got a walk for both.
We'll never of course know this, but how many of the killers would have ended up on death row independent of Charlie ? It's kind of ironic that the two of whom we have prior knowledge of a readiness to kill {Susan and Leslie} turned out to be the ones that actually baulked when it actually came to it.
So for me, it's not a simple matter that can be fixed with a simple sentence. There's a whole universe of nuance and paradox in there.
Tex woke up that fateful morning ready to impress his peer group. Charlie made the murder part of it seem to be nothing worse than stealing typewriters
DeleteAll fo them. Susan confessed to anybody and everybody. Pat and Tex left prints. I believe Leslie confessed to other family members not part of the conspiracy. Probably the only one who would not have been convicted was Charlie.
DeleteDan S said...
ReplyDeleteAlso note that TJ couldn't do it. So Charlie's murder orders (or ramblings) only work on someone ready to murder
Yet Manson and TJ remained close until TJ's death.
Charlie probably respected tj more for not doing it.
DeleteGrim
ReplyDeleteI am coming more and more to your way of thinking these days since I turned 90 back in April.
I think a core argument that should be made is that Charlie had great instincts but the education of a twelve year old. He had a good thing going with his commune but had to fuck it up. Hell in the courtroom he could have walked but he screwed that pooch as well.
Charlie had GREAT instincts. Charlie was dumb as shit.
Dan S said...
ReplyDeleteCharlie probably respected tj more for not doing it
I can only think of three places where Charlie's reaction to TJ in relation to the Lotsapoppa incident is recorded and none of them are positive or respectful. Now granted, Danny DeCarlo may not hold much credibility with people but he described Charlie whaling into TJ for not pulling the trigger; True, Nuel Emmons may not hold much credibility with people but in his book "Charlie" is critical of TJ for not helping Charlie during the incident; But George Stimson does have Charlie cred and he quotes Charlie extensively in his book and on the Crowe shooting Charlie hardly shows TJ respect for although he does say TJ was the only one to back him up by going with him {to give credit where it's due}, he describes him as having frozen with fear and peeing himself.
So somehow respecting him for not doing it is not the conclusion I would reach !
Touché.
DeleteColScott, did you ever post your review of ONCE UPON A TIME IN HOLLYWOOD? I'd really like to hear your thoughts on the movie.
ReplyDeleteI've always thought all those wayward members that returned - TJ, Bo, Kitty, Watkins, Flynn,....all started rejoining the group once Manson was safely incarcerated. Manson was the catalyst for all the violence, and his physical presence seemed to instill fear into the group.
ReplyDeleteGorodish said...
ReplyDeleteI've always thought all those wayward members that returned - TJ, Bo, Kitty, Watkins, Flynn,....all started rejoining the group once Manson was safely incarcerated
That's a really good point. You could even add Barbara Hoyt to that number in a roundabout way.
CarolMR said...
ColScott, did you ever post your review of ONCE UPON A TIME IN HOLLYWOOD?
He certainly did, right about here.
Speaking of Once Upon A Time In Hollyweird...
DeleteRoy Head has passed...
Here's the real Roy Head on Hollywood A Go-Go
https://youtu.be/3gEnQ8VVWEU
According to Paul Watkins' book, Beausoleil and a girlfriend drove up to Barker with two powerwagons in late '68. So where did BB get these vehicles?
ReplyDeleteGrim, thank you so much for the link! I actually had read the post before, just forgot about it.
ReplyDeletePeter said:
ReplyDeleteSusan confessed to anybody and everybody. Pat and Tex left prints. I believe Leslie confessed to other family members not part of the conspiracy. Probably the only one who would not have been convicted was Charlie
I couldn't disagree more.
Firstly, on what basis do you approach from ? When I speak on this I am basing my conclusions on one thing; that all of the perps keep schtuum. Imagine that they all kept their mouths shut. On that basis, only Van Houten is at risk and that from Dianne Lake. Because if Lake spoke to the cops of Leslie saying she stabbed someone already dead, and it was found that some stab wounds were post mortem, then that is powerful corroboration. Leslie was no med student so how could she even suspect post mortem wounds unless she was there ?
But the others ? Nothing ties Susan to Cielo if she shuts up. Linda is virtually a spook without anyone to speak of her involvement. Finding Tex and Pat's prints only establishes that Pat was there after Tuesday noon and Tex sometime on the Friday. It doesn't prove them guilty of murder. Especially when one considers that 25 readable prints were never identified and that Pat and Tex not only had no continuous criminal history, but were in the system for trifles and nothing even remotely approaching violence. You'd hardly look at their records and say "Hey ! These two look good for the job." Their prints were identified after Atkins had talked and it was more a case of corroboration that there was something to her story. Remember, one of the big shocks was that young women were involved.
In the history of criminal law, how many times have we seen perps who looked dead and buried at one point acquitted, because of a good lawyer ? [Cue Mario !]
Without Atkins blabbing to Ronnie Howard & Virginia Graham, without Manson boasting to Al Springer, without Clem & Charlie bragging to Paul Watkins about Shorty etc, as Paul Fitzgerald told a journalist in Dec '69 "all the prosecution has is 2 fingerprints." These prove nothing in terms of committing murder. Fitzgerald actually at one point mooted that Pat's prints were at Cielo because she'd visited as a friend. Had there not been blabbing and Mrs Chapman said she washed the Krenwinkel door on the Tuesday, how could she be a proven murderer if she said she visited on Wednesday or Thursday when Mrs Chapman wasn't there ?
Obviously, we can all be wise in retrospect but retrospect is all we've ever had.
Grim- all of the points you make are some of the same points I consider when we discuss motive. No, the points you make don’t prove HS, or disprove the copycat motive theory, but when taken in context with all of the evidence, testimony, ‘confessions’, behavior prior to the murders, behavior post murders, to me, it paints a pretty clear picture.
DeleteI’ve always felt Susan’s blabbing was a result of her knowing she was never getting out of prison- because she KNEW she was involved in the murders. The paranoia in the family was real. The escalation of behavior (grand theft auto- rape claims- cops coming out because of machine gun firing, the ‘snipers’ trained on the fuzz during a visit, the Lotsapoppa shooting, the killing of Hinman for $$$, and her involvement in Tate/LB etc etc - she knew it was over.
After they were caught, their antics continued into the courtroom and on the sidewalks of Los Angeles furthering the court of public opinion to be not in their favor.
To me it’s a very black and white case of “if A, then B and C” where the passive clues as to WHY, fit. And I personally believe Susan’s first confessions are the closest thing to the truth (minus Linda’s 18 days solidifying their fates) that we’ll ever get.
I am pretty sure that if they all kept their mouths shut, Dianne Lake would not have said anything about what Leslie told her. I don't believe that she said a word until the trial was already to begin or had already began.
ReplyDeleteGrimtraveller, your say:
ReplyDelete��
"Cue Mario"
Well, I'm sure you're reflecting on OJ Simpson himself and The OJ Simpson Case Criminal Trial.
There are MANY items that I can bring out pertaining to the case that haven't gone Mainstream-Media yet.
(Maybe another time)
But I'll say this. For a certain amount of time in The OJ Case, Simpson appeared to be in
"REAL-HOT-WATER," so to speak.
So you're conclusion in the case?
(Enter Attorney Johnnie Cochran)
I can go with that for a certain period of time.
Mario George Nitrini 111
-----
The OJ Simpson Case
“Grim, thank you so much for the link! I actually had read the post before, just forgot about it.”
ReplyDeleteI want to read this review too....have just watched the film and hated the ending. Yeuch - pure Tarantino.
Grim is like a human camera or human encyclopaedia. It’s unnerving. I can barely remember last night and he pulls things out of some random shit he looked at in the 80s!!
“Grim, thank you so much for the link! I actually had read the post before, just forgot about it.”
ReplyDeleteI want to read this review too....have just watched the film and hated the ending. Yeuch - pure Tarantino.
Grim is like a human camera or human encyclopaedia. It’s unnerving. I can barely remember last night and he pulls things out of some random shit he looked at in the 80s!!
starviego typed:
ReplyDeleteAccording to Paul Watkins' book, Beausoleil and a girlfriend drove up to Barker with two powerwagons in late '68. So where did BB get these vehicles?
According to Bob Murphy in his book "Desert Shadows", shortly after the Michigan skiploader was torched on 9/19/1969, Park Ranger Dick Powell was searching side roads and canyons and came upon Nancy Pitman, Ouisch, Soupspoon Lane, and a few others with a red Toyota 4-wheel drive jeep that he was searching for. Powell surreptitiously wrote down the plate number from the jeep, and later called it in to park headquarters. Murphy wrote: "Late in the afternoon of September 23, (Chief Park Ranger Homer) Leach radioed Powell that the license plate on the red Toyota was registered to a four-wheel drive Dodge Power Wagon that belonged to Gail Beausoleil of the Los Angeles area.
While this doesn't answer the question of where Bobby and Gail Beausoleil got the power wagons, it would seem they registered them in their names.
Matthew said...
ReplyDeleteI am pretty sure that if they all kept their mouths shut, Dianne Lake would not have said anything about what Leslie told her. I don't believe that she said a word until the trial was already to begin or had already began
Dianne Lake is interesting in this aspect because on December '69, she's lying to the Grand Jury on a number of matters pertaining to the murders but by the 30th she's telling the cops what she knows about the LaBianca murder and landing Tex and Leslie right in it.