So peaceful and nice to see that and the video was nicely done, with the views seen here. So, Krishna Venta was the original 'Guru' or prophet? Who's the fella who told Charlie to take a hike? You know, some of the phrases we used to hear in the 60's and into the 70's, the good years in America, were: California, 'the land of the fruit and nut.' California, where there's a storefront in every (business) neighborhood in L.A. with some sort of religion or philosophy.
So, such an easy life for Charlie lasted for two and a half years. 1967-1969 Taking it so easily, young ones looking for something to believe in, like...you know...like spiritual, free... Whatever. I think that many of these kids, teens and then some in their twenties, woulda been better off if they just got into the 'New Age Movement,' so to speak, cause most of that was to live in a more natural way. And caring about the environment.
To live randomly, taking it a day at a time, then the mishmash lifestyle that was now,in the summer of '69, at Club Spahn (by invitation only) ha hey Some fun having sex down the trails and in the ravines,taking acid and having the gang get into nakedin' and a general open sleazy sex romping. (I woulda left the next morning if I had gone there, from Chatsworth, after being in a scene like that.) So, poor Krishna Venta was killed by two unhappy guys. In a big blast. Charlie left us with a wimper, quietly and then they burned his body and threw what was left of it away. And the former Spahners had no say!
'Whatsa matta you,' ha, as a nice guy immigrant fella I knew from Italy, used to say when he saw something weird or funny. In the time that things came to a halt, for the singing Barkers in October of '69, we saw that it's sometimes the fool that shakes his head and laughs at me or you or, after enjoying a trial, the fun there and, oh, prison. At the one for the four-Charlie and the three girls. Enjoying the cameras and all that attention! And Charlie grinning, in prison cause other inmates (criminal lowlifes) would say: 'you screwed all those girls, wow, well hey and howdy!' So, the leader of The Fountain place was killed and the leader of Spahn was told, 'you lost your freedom for life.' Now, why? Shouldn't a religion (I'd like to have you join me in Jerusalem when I visit and watch the three religions have their visits and what they say, which is never about other people in a negative or hateful way) or philosophy be for a peaceful life and non-violence? A lotta good constant use of drugs and stealing and violence did you, huh? Susan, Leslie, Patricia? Even weird La Vey, up in San Francisco didn't do violence. I mean, Krishna Venta (sounds like a Middle Eastern rice dish) did not either, the poor guy. Hey, Paul Watkins, hey Susan,where did we go wrong?
The association with Manson wasn't the only time the FOTW got into trouble for hosting questionable people:
http://lostsoulsneverdie.blogspot.com/2011/12/box-canyon-edge-of-hell.html Fred Mendez Medina, 20, and Danny Wayne Townsend, 18, were convicted for the 1972 murders of Dori Haines (15) and Cheryl Monticello (16). Medina and Townsend lived at the Fountain of the World at the time.
Could 'Danny Wayne Townsend' have been related to 'Herbert Townsend, Jr.,' who was caught up in the Spahn Ranch Raid of Aug 16, 1969?
http://www.lsb3.com/search?q=A+Review+of+Spahn+Ranch+Raid+Documents Herbert Townshend, a white male aged 17, is mentioned in Gorightly’s A Who’s Who of the Manson Family as ‘arrested in the Spahn Ranch raid’, and Sanders’ The Family simply mentions him as ‘out of the back door and off the porch of the saloon leaped one Herb Townsend’. Unlike the other 25 arrestees listed on the complaint form, his address, physical details, aliases, identifying features (scars and/or tattoos) are not listed.
Supposed to be out there last week on tour :( Stinkin Corona
But, when we went last year, we went hiking on some mountain ( right across from Spahn) to look at old movie sets, and then went to Spahn Ranch- and then we went somewhere very close by that I think was this place.I am really afraid of high places, so I got out of car and waited at bottom of street while the others went all the way up to top. But I am pretty sure this is the place we were at.
Considering there are no buildings or structures really left at any of these Chatsworth locations, and there are several times you have to go up in high altitudes to see what some of them looked like with your imagination and memory- this really isn't normally my cup of tea. I like the City and beaches much better.
However, there is this weird combination, of history, beauty, and originality that just makes it the kind of place you can really get a vibe about without really needing anything else. Its hard for me to explain, but when you leave Hollywood and get on the freeway- you can see the Mountains in the distance. When you get off the exit in Chatsworth, the huge rocks are so close you can get out of the car and touch them. Its so quiet, its surreal, and the few times I have been out there- never a cloud in the bright blue sky. I am always afraid when we go up in the higher altitude places on these tours, but they are the only time in my life I get to see such views, and they truly are amazing.
Col's last word about " Once upon a Time in Hollywood" was perfect in my opinion. I just watched again over the weekend on Netflix. Overall, not a great movie or what I hoped. Someone in the comments section of Cols review said that Tarantino made the movie Deb Tate wanted him to make and I think there is truth to that. It was too long and too much with the cowboy show stuff and not enough of the Manson stuff for my taste. Brad Pitt's character is why I watched it twice, and I thought he was great. The ending? ehhhhh. Funny too beause I once wrote in a post the best way to make a Manson Movie would be to not feature Charlie. It is too hard to recreate that character- I felt. I argued making him a background character would make it easier to be more real. I think they did sort of accomplish that, but still... He needed to be in the movie for more than 5 min for this to be any kind of real " Manson" movie. Then again, this was not a Manson Movie by any stretch.
I watched " Charlie says" which I am told is based on Both Sanders and Faiths books. It was decent to me, better than most Manson movies- but nothing special. Faiths book is the worst on the case I have read, but it does give you a chance to watch the girls grow into the realization of how badly they fucked up. I still say the best Manson related Movie out there is Manson Family Vacation. It is worth a watch for a modern day spin on the situation.
I watched the "Manson Women" interviews, and Sandy sounds like she hasn't missed a beat. I spent some time with George on an older tour, and he was very reasonable, articulate, and thoughtful when we talked. Its hard to square the guy I met having much in common with the women in that interview. I had a long talk with George one day while we on a hike looking for the "Bobby bus", and I told him the reason people have such a low and negative opinion of people like Sandy is because among other things- she scares us. Listening to her in this interview was just that- scary.
Max Frost is the only person who has ever beaten me at pool on Manson Tour- and he scratched on the break, so I am not sure if that really should count??
Dreath, I am sorry that my ADS caused you to miss saying goodbye to Matt last year.I was 3 hours early for my flight. ( They only had Coors- light in bottles at airport)
Monica- I am sorry we seem to have missed each other again lol- maybe in the fall?
Patty/Stoner- I have spent quite a few hours in the last couple of weeks watching your videos lol I like the Barker Ranch one the best :)
Matt/ Deb and everyone else- please stay as safe as possible and hope to see a few of you as soon as this nightmare ends!!!
lol Yes. I was at this place- except I only saw the intersection at bottom of street lol
From what Dreath told me- it was a very scary ride up. Again, it is sometimes worth the fear and public humiliation to me to see whats up and sometimes it is not. After a long day up in the Movie Mountain- the incline up to this place was just too much lol
Miss you too- hope you guys are staying safe and doing as well as possible :)
I don't have a literary source. I work in Simi Valley, and a co-worker of mine who's the same age as me (64) grew up in the Chatsworth Lake Manor neighborhood at the end of Box Canyon. We were talking one night a few years ago about the general weirdness of the Santa Susanna/Box Canyon/Rocketdyne area, and he brought up those murders. He knew the murderers, especially the Townsend kid. He told me the Townsend brothers (I think there were 3 of them) were always in trouble, and the older brother, who went by "Junior", had been arrested in a police raid at Spahn with the Manson family. My co-worker is a pretty quiet and reliable guy, so I tend to believe him. Not sure what happened to Fred Medina, he may have died. But Danny Townsend is still incarcerated at Tex and Bruce's former digs, the Men's Colony in San Luis Obispo. He's been imprisoned since May 1973, and has been turned down for parole 16 times.
So 2 minutes of inbreds using a selfie stick and then lots of footage of a junk dump site? Well that is seven minutes I will never get back.
Fayez- he was not the original anything con men like him existed a long ass time. Brother Asiah pushed the Family out. "Poor Krishna Venta" was a spousal abuser, child fucker and genuine con man. Fucking good riddance. If I did not know Hendrickson was for real dead I would be sure you were him- impossible to follow
Saint- I was gonna show up this year. No boat trip and Matt had agreed to nude jello wrestle me for the "Championship of Toluca Lake". An IP lawyer I use knows the new owner of the LaBianca house and I was angling for us all to get several hours in there.
Deb I would love the article as well
Patty- there were several very young children blown up with Pencovic, mutilated and all that gory shit you love. Ask Deb to find the burial sites and you and Stones can rub some grave! YEAH BABY!
Gorodish- wow. Glad he is in prison. I already did a sick fuck children killers film BULLY so I never did the Townsend story, but screwing the girl then bashing her head in is tres fucked up
www.cielodrive.com/manson-case-files/BOX-31.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3P1LAkcLR3wOS1ESlzgbdXtOlGFTd_D9O_bytv0wTA8N3wO_bQmj8kbTg Box 31 pg3of697 "Police said each of the six.. had scratched an 'X' on his/her forehead. "They were identified as Sue Bartell, 19, Lynette Fromme, 22, Cathy Gilies, 21, Craig C. Hammonds, 20, Herbert L. Townsend, 18, and Charles Lovett, 18."
If Townsend scratched an 'X' into his head, he was a lot more than a casual visitor to the Ranch It's strange that we don't know more about him.
Gorodish said... "Danny Townsend is still incarcerated at Tex and Bruce's former digs, the Men's Colony in San Luis Obispo. He's been imprisoned since May 1973, and has been turned down for parole 16 times."
This is unusual. I have to wonder if he's another one tarred by the Manson brush, and if this is what's keeping him inside.
ColScott said... "Deb I would love the article as well"
Here is the relevant snippet from the brief obituary DebS sent me:
"Other survivors are her.... three brothers, Herbert Leroy Townsend, Jr., Ontario, Calif., Danny Wayne Townsend, Soledad, Calif., and Gary Dean Townsend, Sweet Home (Oregon)."
A big shout out to DebS for once again helping out!
Both the victims were stabbed in that kind of frenzied 'overkill' pattern that we saw in TLB:
https://law.justia.com/cases/california/court-of-appeal/3d/41/438.html As shown by the testimony of Dr. Eugene Carpenter, the pathologist who performed autopsies on each of the victims, both died as a result of multiple stab wounds to the heart with a knife or knives. Dori was stabbed around 50 times. Most of the wounds were made by a single-edged "hunting" knife, although several wounds had been made by a double-edged knife. Cheryl suffered approximately 35 stab wounds, all of which were made by a single-edged knife. Both victims had severe basal skull fractures and their throats had been cut.
First of all, what I knew of the Fountain of the Weird was from Paul Watkins book. Didn't know about this Townsend and Medina murder situation.
That is where some well placed bullets would have been appropriate. If I was there, wherever I would have spotted them, and knew that the two had committed the murder of those kids, well this is the kind of situation that, if no one else was around, I would have pumped a dozen bullets into these lowlifes.
As far as my use of 'poor' that was meant as simply part of the narrative as far as the death of dirt bag Krishna Venta, hardly as a sympathetic feeling from me toward the sh-t head.
When I wrote that creepy scummy Krishna was the first 'guru' or whatever, as a leader, that was that: he was the first one there at the Fountain of Toilets as the first top crook.
Also, that scene at the Fountain was the subject here and you will notice that I wrote about: California and then L.A. as 'the land of the fruit and nut' and that there seemed to be some so-called 'church' or some such place where you had all the variety of 'religions' and 'so-called spirituality all over L.A.
So, I was well aware of that when I was in California in 1969 when a friend that had moved to live there, from Denver, drove me around and pointed out, aside from Chatsworth, the 'scenes' on Sunset and Hollyweird Blvds and Venice Beach.
In Denver, in the late 60's and into the 70's I saw what was going on with a lot of these dirty scummy types that would hang around the 'Capital Hill' area where a lot of 'hip' types were living and they were after freeloading, trying to be with the 'hippie chicks' and they would lie, steal, commit violence and so on. Sounds like guys, some of the lowlifes, at places like the Fountain and Spahn and more places.
I'm not naive man, I saw a lot of lousy situations and I despise these types that make and are in, like the cowardly attack, for example, on Shea by the 'winners' at Spahn.
Still, there are crimes that sometimes I wish I did not read about and some crimes I witnessed where I and then a couple more times some one nearby called the cops as violence was taking place. There truly is a lack of authenticity in so many people across this land. There are studies that show that the average American doesn't know of the vast majority of really horrible attacks with the crimes that went and do go on.
Like I indicated above, I would and do feel anger and yes, hate toward the filth that was/is this Townsend and Medina rabied half humans. There were a lot of terrible truly twisted people and crimes before and after the Hinman-Tate-LaBianca-Shea atrocities in only California alone in only the 60's.
A young lady stabbed over 150 times at Mullholland Drive, a couple, a man and woman, that lured, then raped and murdered mostly young females in the L.A. area and I can go on with such crimes in L.A. alone; just before and just after August 8-10. What does that tell you about this society?
Dan, ha ha, thanks for that. I just had and am still laughing at your comment, that's pert good. I was and am now going to the news sites around the world, live and it's not, for the most part, pleasant, so thanks for the chuckle friend. Let's face it, too, some things that one experiences in life, simply have a recurring memory/memories and Susan was one for me. Of course, the fact that that time was merged, melted so to speak, with what I found who she really was, in later years does what it does to my head. Like her pics and films of her at the courthouse, the trial and her expressions. I did live with 'hippies' the summer before and the girl I was with was suddenly gone and with the beginning of acid trips and then constantly looking for girls after girls, I realized, later what the hell I've been through. And just before I found that Susan was Sadie, the girl I was living with, at the time, began to ask me why I was losing sleep and acting funny and then...I looked at the videos and went to get some books and knew what was haunting me: somehow, it was in the back of my head. The first things that tormented me after I knew for sure, that it was her, Susan standing or walking and always, always, that was instantly, within a second, with the pics of the crime scene and blood on the floor: as if it was photos within photos. And it was affecting me, That's my personality, I guess.
I have some rubbings for you colonel, William Savage, the Richardson family, Arnold fritz, Manuel Vela, Leona caires. You know, all the NBK copycat deaths you refuse to accept any responsibility for
This is unusual. I have to wonder if he's another one tarred by the Manson brush, and if this is what's keeping him inside.
The guy that Kasabianed them, Eddie Vaughn (who was present when the girls were murdered and was given immunity for his testimony), was asked during his interrogation whether anything was said following the slayings by defendants Fred Medina, 19, and Danny Townsend, 18, as to why they allegedly had inflicted dozens of stab wounds on each of the girls. He replied, "Danny said they'd probably think it was the Manson family that did it."
This is from an article from the Valley News dated 2/15/1973. Here's the article
Sounds like they may have been channeling their inner Tex Watson for a reason. What a pair of dim bulbs.
Well played, sir! I try not to be a snarky troll so i appreciate you taking my little barb in stride. The fact that your Susan interlude was so brief made it better in the fantasy of memory.
Gorodish said... "Danny said they'd probably think it was the Manson family that did it." This is from an article from the Valley News dated 2/15/1973.
It is extremely fascinating how locations and, people, are all connected.
I'm kinda shocked that Lisa Gleitsman walked away scott free...after already beating on the poor girl she attacked her and took a boulder to her freakin head!
I'm kinda shocked that Lisa Gleitsman walked away scott free...
Gleitsman was a real piece of work. What makes her stand out even more from the other 4 involved is that she was originally a rich Jewish girl from Woodland Hills. Her father was Alan Gleitsman, a multi-millionaire TV executive and philanthropist who started the Gleitsman Foundation. He died in 2006, but if you want to get a load of how high-powered this guy was, google Alan L. Gleitsman obituary. Makes you wonder where she took a few left turns...possibly the parents divorcing could've messed her up. She was supposedly living with the other girl involved, Virginia Walton, at the time of the murders. That most likely went south when they all started throwing each other under the bus to save themselves. Those girls definitely skated on that deal, considering how cold-hearted they were.
So 2 minutes of inbreds using a selfie stick and then lots of footage of a junk dump site? Well that is seven minutes I will never get back.
I busted up laughing at this. On the rare occasions in the past 10-15 years that I've traveled that road, I pass that place and think to myself, Bishop Nekona and Brother Asaiah are rolling in their graves seeing what an eyesore that place has become.
Another nearby place that seems to have suffered a similar fate is the old poker parlor, the Pass Club, on the very top of the hill across Santa Susanna Pass right where Box Canyon intersects it. It is looking resplendent these days with junked trucks and a Winnebago on blocks, along with a large cluster of cell towers. The place has an incredible view of Simi Valley. This is the same place where supposedly, in June 1969, Manson and Tex tried to kidnap two old ladies (one of them in a wheelchair) who were leaving the poker club late at night, and take their money and most likely kill them. The two grannies saw Tex coming with his knife and almost ran him over ( a shame they missed), then proceeded to outrun the two Chucks in a chase and lose them somewhere in the Valley.
If Townsend scratched an 'X' into his head, he was a lot more than a casual visitor to the Ranch It's strange that we don't know more about him.
In Ed Sanders' book "The Family", there is an excerpt about Kitty Lutesinger returning to Spahn Ranch the night before the August 16th, 1969 raid, after a few weeks at her parents' house: "The night the Straight Satans raided the ranch, Kitty Lutesinger called the Spahn Ranch and asked someone to pick her up. She had called the ranch several times to talk to Beausoleil. She did not know that he had been arrested for murder. Finally she talked over the phone to Manson, who said that Beausoleil had been arrested but it was nothing; he would be out soon and why didn't she return to the ranch to wait for him. The seventeen-year-old girl, pregnant by Beausoleil, was having trouble with her parents, one of whom wanted her to get an abortion. There was quarreling, and she decided to split. About midnight, Sadie, Gypsy, and a male Caucasian named Junior, came to Northridge in Johnny Swartz's car to pick up Kitty. Right there, in the driveway of her father's horse ranch, Sadie cut Kitty's hair off, leaving the single witchy tail adangle. They told her to burn one hair, bury one hair, and turn the rest over to the Soul. She arrived just in time to party with the Straight Satans, to catch a couple hours sleep, then to get arrested in the dawn raid of the sheriff.
"Junior" was most likely Herb Townsend Jr. My co-worker knew him as Junior. There's several pictures of a guy in 1970 at Spahn and outside the courtroom (with Squeaky Ouisch et al). He's in one picture with Hugh Rocky Todd and some Appaloosa horses at Spahn, and is referred to as "Pat". I'm wondering if "Pat" is actually Junior Townsend. Would be interesting to see a picture of him.
So 2 minutes of inbreds using a selfie stick and then lots of footage of a junk dump site? Well that is seven minutes I will never get back. __________________________________________________________________________________________
The Saggy Depends Man proving once again he's twice as obnoxious as two average Americans combined. Behold, the exponential feat. They are but remnants of a bullied and beaten childhood.
I had a feeling that she was his daughter. I wonder how close her father was to E. Younger? Pulling some high powered strings for his kid in order to save the family name?
Jenn said... Gorodish wrote: “ But Danny Townsend is still incarcerated at Tex and Bruce's former digs, the Men's Colony in San Luis Obispo.”
Davis is still there. I drive by his “house” every day going to and from work. ----------------
Jenn, Bruce Davis was transferred to San Quentin a few months ago. Apparently he was being threatened by other inmates and I believe he was even beat up by one. Since it was easier to isolate Davis than to round up multiple people, Davis was put in SHU (security housing unit)for his own protection until a place could be found for him at another prison.
You can look him up at the California Inmate Locator site.
Gorodish wrote- "Junior" was most likely Herb Townsend Jr. My co-worker knew him as Junior. There's several pictures of a guy in 1970 at Spahn and outside the courtroom (with Squeaky Ouisch et al). He's in one picture with Hugh Rocky Todd and some Appaloosa horses at Spahn, and is referred to as "Pat". I'm wondering if "Pat" is actually Junior Townsend. Would be interesting to see a picture of him. ----------
I found a picture of Herbert Townsend Jr. from 1967 and have the picture of "Pat" and Rocky Todd. If you email me I can send them to you. The big difference in the two pictures is that Junior has what looks to be blond hair in 1967 but "Pat" definitely has very dark hair in the 1971 photo. However their facial features are similar.
GreenWhite, If you're referring to my words-the 'Singing Barkers' in an above comment of mine, thanks, cause you know, there they were at the Susanas and they were the Singing Spahnettes and The Dancing Spahnies, especially 'go go' Spinning Sadie Sudsan: such silly cuties and some were just downright sweeties and like, you know, whatever. They were groovin' but then we had the petty thugs, some of Charlie's not really friends that he welcomed to the ranch, like some ex con, some of the bikers and so it was becoming sleaze city, I mean that ain't classy and it ain't kosher, you what I'm saying'. What the hey at least not all of the girls went with whoever Charlie said to you know, 'get down' with and all. And another thing, ola la la. At least there was one Sphanie cutie that was with a real, ah, Ram. Ptishsh! (Cymbals crash) And it wasn't at Spahn Ranch, if you know what I'm meanin' cause she looked and said ceegee then she went ahead. Ram on.
Hello, I misspelled 'Susan' in the third line. That's what I get for typing with a cigarette in one hand and a cup a tea in the other. (earl Grey tea) thanks
I have always thought the the fact that the 3 in that case got off was terrible. It was Vaughn that raped the 2 girls first, I believe, if you don't count head as rape. And it was the 2 girls, Lisa and Virginia that initiated the violence. They all 5 were equally guilty in my opinion.
This is an appeal filed by Medina and Townsend, it gives a really detailed account of the murders and the suspects. The Fountain of the World played a larger part than what the newspaper accounts would have you believe.
No matter Bruce's crimes or people's opinion of him it's pretty fkd up that someone in his 70's was assaulted so bad he had to be moved to another facility Not sure if Matt was going to mention it or not but some sicko is selling a photo of Charlie under glass with single strands of his hair on Etsy for $40 If this can be authenticated one would have to imagine Jason Freeman is the source
I thought that testimony of an accomplice was inadmissible without corroboration. I found my answer late in the paper. Seemed Like weak corroboration to me butt we do live in the forensic files age now and expect some dna . Gleitman started the violence! All those stab wounds, sounds like overkill to me. Passion fueled, jealousy fueled....
"It is not necessary that the testimony of an accomplice be corroborated as to every fact to which he testified. Rather, it is sufficient that the corroborative evidence tends to connect the defendant with the commission of the offense in such a way as reasonably may satisfy a jury that the accomplice is telling the truth. Such evidence need not be sufficient in and of itself to establish every element of the offense charged; it may be slight and entitled to little consideration when standing alone. (People v. Hathcock, 8 Cal.3d 599, 617, 105 Cal.Rptr. 540, 504 P.2d 476; People v. Perry, 7 Cal.3d 756, 769, 103 Cal.Rptr. 161, 499 P.2d 129.)
Though the evidence placing both defendants at the scene of the crime was not in and of itself sufficient corroboration (People v. Robinson, 61 Cal.2d 373, 398—400, 38 Cal.Rptr. 890, 392 P.2d 970), such evidence was sufficient in combination with the evidence showing that defendants had in their immediate possession weapons corresponding to those used in the murders."
I knew Gleitsman when we were both children and she was very odd then. She really went off the deep ends it seems. She is a killer no doubt about that. She should have gotten life. Probably someone in the D.A. office got paid to let this inhumane obtain immunity. Murderer she is!!
54 comments:
So peaceful and nice to see that and the video was nicely done, with the views seen here.
So, Krishna Venta was the original 'Guru' or prophet?
Who's the fella who told Charlie to take a hike?
You know, some of the phrases we used to hear in the 60's and into the 70's, the good years in America, were:
California, 'the land of the fruit and nut.'
California, where there's a storefront in every (business) neighborhood in L.A. with some sort of religion or philosophy.
So, such an easy life for Charlie lasted for two and a half years. 1967-1969
Taking it so easily, young ones looking for something to believe in, like...you know...like spiritual, free...
Whatever.
I think that many of these kids, teens and then some in their twenties, woulda been better off if they just got into the 'New Age Movement,' so to speak, cause most of that was to live in a more natural way. And caring about the environment.
To live randomly, taking it a day at a time, then the mishmash lifestyle that was now,in the summer of '69, at Club Spahn (by invitation only) ha hey
Some fun having sex down the trails and in the ravines,taking acid and having the gang get into nakedin' and a general open sleazy sex romping. (I woulda left the next morning if I had gone there, from Chatsworth, after being in a scene like that.)
So, poor Krishna Venta was killed by two unhappy guys.
In a big blast. Charlie left us with a wimper, quietly and then they burned his body and threw what was left of it away.
And the former Spahners had no say!
'Whatsa matta you,' ha, as a nice guy immigrant fella I knew from Italy, used to say when he saw something weird or funny.
In the time that things came to a halt, for the singing Barkers in October of '69,
we saw that it's sometimes the fool that shakes his head and laughs at me or you or,
after enjoying a trial, the fun there and, oh, prison. At the one for the four-Charlie and the three girls.
Enjoying the cameras and all that attention! And Charlie grinning, in prison cause other inmates (criminal lowlifes) would say: 'you screwed all those girls, wow, well hey and howdy!'
So, the leader of The Fountain place was killed and the leader of Spahn was told, 'you lost your freedom for life.'
Now, why?
Shouldn't a religion
(I'd like to have you join me in Jerusalem when I visit and watch the three religions have their visits and what they say, which is never about other people in a negative or hateful way)
or philosophy be for a peaceful life and non-violence? A lotta good constant use of drugs and stealing and violence did you, huh? Susan, Leslie, Patricia?
Even weird La Vey, up in San Francisco didn't do violence.
I mean, Krishna Venta (sounds like a Middle Eastern rice dish) did not either, the poor guy. Hey, Paul Watkins, hey Susan,where did we go wrong?
The association with Manson wasn't the only time the FOTW got into trouble for hosting questionable people:
http://lostsoulsneverdie.blogspot.com/2011/12/box-canyon-edge-of-hell.html
Fred Mendez Medina, 20, and Danny Wayne Townsend, 18, were convicted for the 1972 murders of Dori Haines (15) and Cheryl Monticello (16). Medina and Townsend lived at the Fountain of the World at the time.
Could 'Danny Wayne Townsend' have been related to 'Herbert Townsend, Jr.,' who was caught up in the Spahn Ranch Raid of Aug 16, 1969?
http://www.lsb3.com/search?q=A+Review+of+Spahn+Ranch+Raid+Documents
Herbert Townshend, a white male aged 17, is mentioned in Gorightly’s A Who’s Who of the Manson Family as ‘arrested in the Spahn Ranch raid’, and Sanders’ The Family simply mentions him as ‘out of the back door and off the porch of the saloon leaped one Herb Townsend’. Unlike the other 25 arrestees listed on the complaint form, his address, physical details, aliases, identifying features (scars and/or tattoos) are not listed.
starviego typed:
Medina and Townsend lived at the Fountain of the World at the time.
They lived with Anne Todd, the mother of Hugh Rocky Todd. She was interviewed about Atkins and Krenwinkel after Manson's arrest.
Could 'Danny Wayne Townsend' have been related to 'Herbert Townsend, Jr.,' who was caught up in the Spahn Ranch Raid of Aug 16, 1969?
They're brothers.
Gorodish said...
"They're brothers"
Wow, hadn't expected that. Do you have a source?
I think I have been to this place?
Sigh.
Supposed to be out there last week on tour :( Stinkin Corona
But, when we went last year, we went hiking on some mountain ( right across from Spahn) to look at old movie sets, and then went to Spahn Ranch- and then we went somewhere very close by that I think was this place.I am really afraid of high places, so I got out of car and waited at bottom of street while the others went all the way up to top. But I am pretty sure this is the place we were at.
Considering there are no buildings or structures really left at any of these Chatsworth locations, and there are several times you have to go up in high altitudes to see what some of them looked like with your imagination and memory- this really isn't normally my cup of tea. I like the City and beaches much better.
However, there is this weird combination, of history, beauty, and originality that just makes it the kind of place you can really get a vibe about without really needing anything else. Its hard for me to explain, but when you leave Hollywood and get on the freeway- you can see the Mountains in the distance. When you get off the exit in Chatsworth, the huge rocks are so close you can get out of the car and touch them. Its so quiet, its surreal, and the few times I have been out there- never a cloud in the bright blue sky. I am always afraid when we go up in the higher altitude places on these tours, but they are the only time in my life I get to see such views, and they truly are amazing.
wait... there is more lol
Its been awhile so I have been catching up...
Col's last word about " Once upon a Time in Hollywood" was perfect in my opinion. I just watched again over the weekend on Netflix. Overall, not a great movie or what I hoped. Someone in the comments section of Cols review said that Tarantino made the movie Deb Tate wanted him to make and I think there is truth to that. It was too long and too much with the cowboy show stuff and not enough of the Manson stuff for my taste. Brad Pitt's character is why I watched it twice, and I thought he was great. The ending? ehhhhh. Funny too beause I once wrote in a post the best way to make a Manson Movie would be to not feature Charlie. It is too hard to recreate that character- I felt. I argued making him a background character would make it easier to be more real. I think they did sort of accomplish that, but still... He needed to be in the movie for more than 5 min for this to be any kind of real " Manson" movie. Then again, this was not a Manson Movie by any stretch.
I watched " Charlie says" which I am told is based on Both Sanders and Faiths books. It was decent to me, better than most Manson movies- but nothing special. Faiths book is the worst on the case I have read, but it does give you a chance to watch the girls grow into the realization of how badly they fucked up. I still say the best Manson related Movie out there is Manson Family Vacation. It is worth a watch for a modern day spin on the situation.
I watched the "Manson Women" interviews, and Sandy sounds like she hasn't missed a beat. I spent some time with George on an older tour, and he was very reasonable, articulate, and thoughtful when we talked. Its hard to square the guy I met having much in common with the women in that interview. I had a long talk with George one day while we on a hike looking for the "Bobby bus", and I told him the reason people have such a low and negative opinion of people like Sandy is because among other things- she scares us. Listening to her in this interview was just that- scary.
Max Frost is the only person who has ever beaten me at pool on Manson Tour- and he scratched on the break, so I am not sure if that really should count??
Dreath, I am sorry that my ADS caused you to miss saying goodbye to Matt last year.I was 3 hours early for my flight. ( They only had Coors- light in bottles at airport)
Monica- I am sorry we seem to have missed each other again lol- maybe in the fall?
Patty/Stoner- I have spent quite a few hours in the last couple of weeks watching your videos lol I like the Barker Ranch one the best :)
Matt/ Deb and everyone else- please stay as safe as possible and hope to see a few of you as soon as this nightmare ends!!!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J36xPWBLcG8
In case any of you feel like burning a few hours listening
ST I think your fear of heights caused you to not visit box canyon if I remember correctly. Miss you my friend.
lol Yes. I was at this place- except I only saw the intersection at bottom of street lol
From what Dreath told me- it was a very scary ride up. Again, it is sometimes worth the fear and public humiliation to me to see whats up and sometimes it is not. After a long day up in the Movie Mountain- the incline up to this place was just too much lol
Miss you too- hope you guys are staying safe and doing as well as possible :)
Very bummed to miss the tour this year.
starviego typed:
Do you have a source?
I don't have a literary source. I work in Simi Valley, and a co-worker of mine who's the same age as me (64) grew up in the Chatsworth Lake Manor neighborhood at the end of Box Canyon. We were talking one night a few years ago about the general weirdness of the Santa Susanna/Box Canyon/Rocketdyne area, and he brought up those murders. He knew the murderers, especially the Townsend kid. He told me the Townsend brothers (I think there were 3 of them) were always in trouble, and the older brother, who went by "Junior", had been arrested in a police raid at Spahn with the Manson family. My co-worker is a pretty quiet and reliable guy, so I tend to believe him. Not sure what happened to Fred Medina, he may have died. But Danny Townsend is still incarcerated at Tex and Bruce's former digs, the Men's Colony in San Luis Obispo. He's been imprisoned since May 1973, and has been turned down for parole 16 times.
Starveigo, I emailed you a copy of Herbert Townsend's sister's obituary with the three brothers listed as survivors.
Welcome back, St.
Whut
So 2 minutes of inbreds using a selfie stick and then lots of footage of a junk dump site?
Well that is seven minutes I will never get back.
Fayez- he was not the original anything con men like him existed a long ass time. Brother Asiah pushed the Family out. "Poor Krishna Venta" was a spousal abuser, child fucker and genuine con man. Fucking good riddance. If I did not know Hendrickson was for real dead I would be sure you were him- impossible to follow
Saint- I was gonna show up this year. No boat trip and Matt had agreed to nude jello wrestle me for the "Championship of Toluca Lake". An IP lawyer I use knows the new owner of the LaBianca house and I was angling for us all to get several hours in there.
Deb I would love the article as well
Patty- there were several very young children blown up with Pencovic, mutilated and all that gory shit you love. Ask Deb to find the burial sites and you and Stones can rub some grave! YEAH BABY!
Gorodish- wow. Glad he is in prison. I already did a sick fuck children killers film BULLY so I never did the Townsend story, but screwing the girl then bashing her head in is tres fucked up
www.cielodrive.com/manson-case-files/BOX-31.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3P1LAkcLR3wOS1ESlzgbdXtOlGFTd_D9O_bytv0wTA8N3wO_bQmj8kbTg
Box 31 pg3of697
"Police said each of the six.. had scratched an 'X' on his/her forehead.
"They were identified as Sue Bartell, 19, Lynette Fromme, 22, Cathy Gilies, 21, Craig C. Hammonds, 20, Herbert L. Townsend, 18, and Charles Lovett, 18."
If Townsend scratched an 'X' into his head, he was a lot more than a casual visitor to the Ranch It's strange that we don't know more about him.
Gorodish said...
"Danny Townsend is still incarcerated at Tex and Bruce's former digs, the Men's Colony in San Luis Obispo. He's been imprisoned since May 1973, and has been turned down for parole 16 times."
This is unusual. I have to wonder if he's another one tarred by the Manson brush, and if this is what's keeping him inside.
ColScott said...
"Deb I would love the article as well"
Here is the relevant snippet from the brief obituary DebS sent me:
"Other survivors are her.... three brothers, Herbert Leroy Townsend, Jr., Ontario, Calif., Danny Wayne Townsend, Soledad, Calif., and Gary Dean Townsend, Sweet Home (Oregon)."
A big shout out to DebS for once again helping out!
Soledad Lol
starviego- read the case file- the murder was 8 ways of fucked up no wonder he is in jail still no Manson shit at all
Both the victims were stabbed in that kind of frenzied 'overkill' pattern that we saw in TLB:
https://law.justia.com/cases/california/court-of-appeal/3d/41/438.html
As shown by the testimony of Dr. Eugene Carpenter, the pathologist who performed autopsies on each of the victims, both died as a result of multiple stab wounds to the heart with a knife or knives. Dori was stabbed around 50 times. Most of the wounds were made by a single-edged "hunting" knife, although several wounds had been made by a double-edged knife. Cheryl suffered approximately 35 stab wounds, all of which were made by a single-edged knife. Both victims had severe basal skull fractures and their throats had been cut.
To-starviego
And to- The Col
First of all, what I knew of the Fountain of the Weird was from Paul Watkins book.
Didn't know about this Townsend and Medina murder situation.
That is where some well placed bullets would have been appropriate.
If I was there, wherever I would have spotted them, and knew that the two had committed the murder of those kids, well this is the kind of situation that, if no one else was around, I would have pumped a dozen bullets into these lowlifes.
As far as my use of 'poor' that was meant as simply part of the narrative as far as the death of dirt bag Krishna Venta, hardly as a sympathetic feeling from me toward the sh-t head.
When I wrote that creepy scummy Krishna was the first 'guru' or whatever, as a leader, that was that: he was the first one there at the Fountain of Toilets as the first top crook.
Also, that scene at the Fountain was the subject here and you will notice that I wrote about:
California and then L.A. as 'the land of the fruit and nut' and that there seemed to be some so-called 'church' or some such place where you had all the variety of 'religions' and 'so-called spirituality all over L.A.
So, I was well aware of that when I was in California in 1969 when a friend that had moved to live there, from Denver, drove me around and pointed out, aside from Chatsworth, the 'scenes' on Sunset and Hollyweird Blvds and Venice Beach.
In Denver, in the late 60's and into the 70's I saw what was going on with a lot of these dirty scummy types that would hang around the 'Capital Hill' area where a lot of 'hip' types were living and they were after freeloading, trying to be with the 'hippie chicks' and they would lie, steal, commit violence and so on.
Sounds like guys, some of the lowlifes, at places like the Fountain and Spahn and more places.
I'm not naive man, I saw a lot of lousy situations and I despise these types that make and are in, like the cowardly attack, for example, on Shea by the 'winners' at Spahn.
Still, there are crimes that sometimes I wish I did not read about and some crimes I witnessed where I and then a couple more times some one nearby called the cops as violence was taking place.
There truly is a lack of authenticity in so many people across this land.
There are studies that show that the average American doesn't know of the vast majority of really horrible attacks with the crimes that went and do go on.
Like I indicated above, I would and do feel anger and yes, hate toward the filth that was/is this Townsend and Medina rabied half humans.
There were a lot of terrible truly twisted people and crimes before and after the Hinman-Tate-LaBianca-Shea atrocities in only California alone in only the 60's.
A young lady stabbed over 150 times at Mullholland Drive, a couple, a man and woman, that lured, then raped and murdered mostly young females in the L.A. area and I can go on with such crimes in L.A. alone; just before and just after August 8-10.
What does that tell you about this society?
RH was tripping on the gospel of Charlie (he's a martyr to LBJ's imperial murder machine); Fayez is nostalgic for the one time he got laid (Sadie Mae)
Dan,
ha ha, thanks for that.
I just had and am still laughing at your comment, that's pert good.
I was and am now going to the news sites around the world, live and it's not, for the most part, pleasant, so thanks for the chuckle friend.
Let's face it, too, some things that one experiences in life, simply have a recurring memory/memories and Susan was one for me.
Of course, the fact that that time was merged, melted so to speak, with what I found who she really was, in later years does what it does to my head. Like her pics and films of her at the courthouse, the trial and her expressions.
I did live with 'hippies' the summer before and the girl I was with was suddenly gone and with the beginning of acid trips and then constantly looking for girls after girls, I realized, later what the hell I've been through. And just before I found that Susan was Sadie, the girl I was living with, at the time, began to ask me why I was losing sleep and acting funny and then...I looked at the videos and went to get some books and knew what was haunting me: somehow, it was in the back of my head. The first things that tormented me after I knew for sure, that it was her, Susan standing or walking and always, always, that was instantly, within a second, with the pics of the crime scene and blood on the floor: as if it was photos within photos. And it was affecting me, That's my personality, I guess.
Hello Whut :)
Col- am really sorry to have missed you- maybe in fall :) Meeting you was the highlight of my first tour!
Dead babies? Yum. I'll have two please, with plum sauce.
I have some rubbings for you colonel, William Savage, the Richardson family, Arnold fritz, Manuel Vela, Leona caires. You know, all the NBK copycat deaths you refuse to accept any responsibility for
starviego typed :
This is unusual. I have to wonder if he's another one tarred by the Manson brush, and if this is what's keeping him inside.
The guy that Kasabianed them, Eddie Vaughn (who was present when the girls were murdered and was given immunity for his testimony), was asked during his interrogation whether anything was said following the slayings by defendants Fred Medina, 19, and Danny Townsend, 18, as to why they allegedly had inflicted dozens of stab wounds on each of the girls. He replied, "Danny said they'd probably think it was the Manson family that did it."
This is from an article from the Valley News dated 2/15/1973.
Here's the article
Sounds like they may have been channeling their inner Tex Watson for a reason. What a pair of dim bulbs.
Well played, sir! I try not to be a snarky troll so i appreciate you taking my little barb in stride. The fact that your Susan interlude was so brief made it better in the fantasy of memory.
James Whitehouse is a fan of my band, Hell on Wheels. I can see why he picked susan. She's the perfect wife, you only have to visit when you want
Gorodish said...
"Danny said they'd probably think it was the Manson family that did it."
This is from an article from the Valley News dated 2/15/1973.
Thanks for that great link!
It is extremely fascinating how locations and, people, are all connected.
I'm kinda shocked that Lisa Gleitsman walked away scott free...after already beating on the poor girl she attacked her and took a boulder to her freakin head!
Doug typed:
I'm kinda shocked that Lisa Gleitsman walked away scott free...
Gleitsman was a real piece of work. What makes her stand out even more from the other 4 involved is that she was originally a rich Jewish girl from Woodland Hills. Her father was Alan Gleitsman, a multi-millionaire TV executive and philanthropist who started the Gleitsman Foundation. He died in 2006, but if you want to get a load of how high-powered this guy was, google Alan L. Gleitsman obituary. Makes you wonder where she took a few left turns...possibly the parents divorcing could've messed her up. She was supposedly living with the other girl involved, Virginia Walton, at the time of the murders. That most likely went south when they all started throwing each other under the bus to save themselves. Those girls definitely skated on that deal, considering how cold-hearted they were.
ColScott typed:
So 2 minutes of inbreds using a selfie stick and then lots of footage of a junk dump site?
Well that is seven minutes I will never get back.
I busted up laughing at this. On the rare occasions in the past 10-15 years that I've traveled that road, I pass that place and think to myself, Bishop Nekona and Brother Asaiah are rolling in their graves seeing what an eyesore that place has become.
Another nearby place that seems to have suffered a similar fate is the old poker parlor, the Pass Club, on the very top of the hill across Santa Susanna Pass right where Box Canyon intersects it. It is looking resplendent these days with junked trucks and a Winnebago on blocks, along with a large cluster of cell towers. The place has an incredible view of Simi Valley. This is the same place where supposedly, in June 1969, Manson and Tex tried to kidnap two old ladies (one of them in a wheelchair) who were leaving the poker club late at night, and take their money and most likely kill them. The two grannies saw Tex coming with his knife and almost ran him over ( a shame they missed), then proceeded to outrun the two Chucks in a chase and lose them somewhere in the Valley.
starviego typed:
If Townsend scratched an 'X' into his head, he was a lot more than a casual visitor to the Ranch It's strange that we don't know more about him.
In Ed Sanders' book "The Family", there is an excerpt about Kitty Lutesinger returning to Spahn Ranch the night before the August 16th, 1969 raid, after a few weeks at her parents' house:
"The night the Straight Satans raided the ranch, Kitty Lutesinger called the Spahn Ranch and asked someone to pick her up. She had called the ranch several times to talk to Beausoleil. She did not know that he had been arrested for murder. Finally she talked over the phone to Manson, who said that Beausoleil had been arrested but it was nothing; he would be out soon and why didn't she return to the ranch to wait for him. The seventeen-year-old girl, pregnant by Beausoleil, was having trouble with her parents, one of whom wanted her to get an abortion. There was quarreling, and she decided to split.
About midnight, Sadie, Gypsy, and a male Caucasian named Junior, came to Northridge in Johnny Swartz's car to pick up Kitty. Right there, in the driveway of her father's horse ranch, Sadie cut Kitty's hair off, leaving the single witchy tail adangle. They told her to burn one hair, bury one hair, and turn the rest over to the Soul.
She arrived just in time to party with the Straight Satans, to catch a couple hours sleep, then to get arrested in the dawn raid of the sheriff.
"Junior" was most likely Herb Townsend Jr. My co-worker knew him as Junior. There's several pictures of a guy in 1970 at Spahn and outside the courtroom (with Squeaky Ouisch et al). He's in one picture with Hugh Rocky Todd and some Appaloosa horses at Spahn, and is referred to as "Pat". I'm wondering if "Pat" is actually Junior Townsend. Would be interesting to see a picture of him.
Gorodish wrote:
“ But Danny Townsend is still incarcerated at Tex and Bruce's former digs, the Men's Colony in San Luis Obispo.”
Davis is still there. I drive by his “house” every day going to and from work.
Pvt. Pee-Pee Pants Said-
So 2 minutes of inbreds using a selfie stick and then lots of footage of a junk dump site?
Well that is seven minutes I will never get back.
__________________________________________________________________________________________
The Saggy Depends Man proving once again he's twice as obnoxious as two average Americans combined.
Behold, the exponential feat.
They are but remnants of a bullied and beaten childhood.
I had a feeling that she was his daughter. I wonder how close her father was to E. Younger? Pulling some high powered strings for his kid in order to save the family name?
Jenn said...
Gorodish wrote:
“ But Danny Townsend is still incarcerated at Tex and Bruce's former digs, the Men's Colony in San Luis Obispo.”
Davis is still there. I drive by his “house” every day going to and from work.
----------------
Jenn, Bruce Davis was transferred to San Quentin a few months ago. Apparently he was being threatened by other inmates and I believe he was even beat up by one. Since it was easier to isolate Davis than to round up multiple people, Davis was put in SHU (security housing unit)for his own protection until a place could be found for him at another prison.
You can look him up at the California Inmate Locator site.
https://inmatelocator.cdcr.ca.gov/
Gorodish wrote-
"Junior" was most likely Herb Townsend Jr. My co-worker knew him as Junior. There's several pictures of a guy in 1970 at Spahn and outside the courtroom (with Squeaky Ouisch et al). He's in one picture with Hugh Rocky Todd and some Appaloosa horses at Spahn, and is referred to as "Pat". I'm wondering if "Pat" is actually Junior Townsend. Would be interesting to see a picture of him.
----------
I found a picture of Herbert Townsend Jr. from 1967 and have the picture of "Pat" and Rocky Todd. If you email me I can send them to you. The big difference in the two pictures is that Junior has what looks to be blond hair in 1967 but "Pat" definitely has very dark hair in the 1971 photo. However their facial features are similar.
The Singing Barkers is good stuff. Props.
Deb wrote:
“ Jenn, Bruce Davis was transferred to San Quentin a few months ago”
Well I’ll be! I don’t know how I missed it! After 15 years I can finally stop waving! :-)
Thanks, Deb.
GreenWhite,
If you're referring to my words-the 'Singing Barkers' in an above comment of mine,
thanks, cause you know, there they were at the Susanas and they were the Singing Spahnettes and The Dancing Spahnies, especially 'go go' Spinning Sadie Sudsan:
such silly cuties and some were just downright sweeties and like, you know, whatever.
They were groovin' but then we had the petty thugs, some of Charlie's not really friends that he welcomed to the ranch, like some ex con, some of the bikers and so it was becoming sleaze city, I mean that ain't classy and it ain't kosher,
you what I'm saying'.
What the hey at least not all of the girls went with whoever Charlie said to you know, 'get down' with and all.
And another thing, ola la la.
At least there was one Sphanie cutie that was with a real, ah, Ram. Ptishsh! (Cymbals crash)
And it wasn't at Spahn Ranch, if you know what I'm meanin'
cause she looked and said ceegee then she went ahead.
Ram on.
Hello, I misspelled 'Susan' in the third line.
That's what I get for typing with a cigarette in one hand and a cup a tea in the other.
(earl Grey tea)
thanks
Gleitsman is now married and still alive
Fuck her
Col, wasn't O'Neill on Rogan fantastic?! When ya gonna go after that, honcho?
Totally!
I have always thought the the fact that the 3 in that case got off was terrible. It was Vaughn that raped the 2 girls first, I believe, if you don't count head as rape. And it was the 2 girls, Lisa and Virginia that initiated the violence. They all 5 were equally guilty in my opinion.
This is an appeal filed by Medina and Townsend, it gives a really detailed account of the murders and the suspects. The Fountain of the World played a larger part than what the newspaper accounts would have you believe.
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/ca-court-of-appeal/1828511.html
No matter Bruce's crimes or people's opinion of him it's pretty fkd up that someone in his 70's was assaulted so bad he had to be moved to another facility
Not sure if Matt was going to mention it or not but some sicko is selling a photo of Charlie under glass with single strands of his hair on Etsy for $40
If this can be authenticated one would have to imagine Jason Freeman is the source
This just gets weirder all the time...
Herbert Townsend was a credited actor in LINDA AND ABELEINE
https://m.imdb.com/name/nm1133374/?ref_=m_ttfcd_cl6
I thought that testimony of an accomplice was inadmissible without corroboration. I found my answer late in the paper. Seemed Like weak corroboration to me butt we do live in the forensic files age now and expect some dna . Gleitman started the violence! All those stab wounds, sounds like overkill to me. Passion fueled, jealousy fueled....
"It is not necessary that the testimony of an accomplice be corroborated as to every fact to which he testified. Rather, it is sufficient that the corroborative evidence tends to connect the defendant with the commission of the offense in such a way as reasonably may satisfy a jury that the accomplice is telling the truth. Such evidence need not be sufficient in and of itself to establish every element of the offense charged; it may be slight and entitled to little consideration when standing alone. (People v. Hathcock, 8 Cal.3d 599, 617, 105 Cal.Rptr. 540, 504 P.2d 476; People v. Perry, 7 Cal.3d 756, 769, 103 Cal.Rptr. 161, 499 P.2d 129.)
Though the evidence placing both defendants at the scene of the crime was not in and of itself sufficient corroboration (People v. Robinson, 61 Cal.2d 373, 398—400, 38 Cal.Rptr. 890, 392 P.2d 970), such evidence was sufficient in combination with the evidence showing that defendants had in their immediate possession weapons corresponding to those used in the murders."
Bill Vance was in that movie.....knowing him, he probably stole Townsend's identity for the credits haha.
That actually makes sense...
I knew Gleitsman when we were both children and she was very odd then. She really went off the deep ends it seems. She is a killer no doubt about that. She should have gotten life. Probably someone in the D.A. office got paid to let this inhumane obtain immunity. Murderer she is!!
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