On the second night of the murders, August 9th, the killers drove randomly around Los Angeles looking for victims before settling on Harold True's former neighbors, Leno and Rosemary LaBianca. During their journeys they encountered a white sports car
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| Sunset Boulevard circa 1966-8 |
(Bugliosi, Vincent. Helter Skelter: The True Story of the Manson Murders (25th Anniversary Edition) (p. 308). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.)
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A: Linda Kasabian: Driving for quite a while and got into intersection lights. There was a white sports car driving down the road and Charles told me to follow it.
Q: Was this on Sunset Boulevard?
A: Yes.
Q: What direction were you going at this time?
A: Back toward the city, away.
Q: You were going away from the ocean?
A: Yes.
Q: Going east?
A: Yes. And he told me to follow the white sports car, and at the next red light to stop and he was going to get out and kill the man and I got to a red stop and stopped and the car was right there beside me and Charlie started to get out, but then the light turned green and the car took off.
Charlie got back in and then I kept driving and he started giving me more directions and finally we ended up in front of a house where I had been a year or so earlier.
Q: What house was this?
A: Harold True.
(Testimony of Linda Kasabian at ‘Tex’ Watson’s trial.)
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Who was driving that car?
According to Jerry West, it may have been him.
NBA Legend Jerry West Thinks Charles Manson Followed His Ferrari Home One Night Back in the 1960s
By Chris Yuscavage
Outside of the fact that they both spent time living in West Virginia when they were younger, you probably wouldn't think that NBA legend Jerry West and convicted killer Charles Manson have all that much in common. But during a new interview for In Depth With Graham Bensinger, which will air this weekend, West talks about the strange connection that he shares with Manson, who is currently serving a life sentence behind bars.
In the 1974 book, Helter Skelter: The True Story of The Manson Murders, authors Vincent Bugliosi and Curt Gentry wrote about the murders that Manson and the Manson family committed back in the 1960s and 1970s. They also wrote about one night in particular when Manson followed a white Ferrari down Sunset Boulevard. And while speaking with Graham Bensinger, West reveals that he thinks he was driving the Ferrari that was followed by Manson. He can't say it for sure, but he has his suspicions.
"Oh my gosh. You know, he's from West Virginia also," West says in the interview (you can watch the preview clip here). "And I had a Ferrari, and again, I have no idea, but it mentioned in the book, Helter Skelter, how he followed this Ferrari on Sunset Boulevard. And this car was following me, okay? No question, it was following me…And it was the most, weird feeling of all because these other murders had occurred that he was a part of...I often wonder, because he said he was following this white Ferrari…"
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| 1969 Ferrari |
"You think it was you?" Bensinger asks.
"I don't know," West replies, "but I know one thing—he wasn't going to catch me in a Ferrari."
If this is actually true (unfortunately, there's probably no way we'll ever know the truth), how crazy is that?!
(Original link: https://www.complex.com/sports/2015/05/jerry-west-thinks-charles-manson-followed-his-ferrari-home-1960s)
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Was it Jerry West? I've never heard the car described as a Ferrari. Who knows, but that would be pretty crazy.
Pax Vobiscum
Dreath
61 comments:
Interesting, but I don't think the white sports car was Jerry West. Like you said, nobody ever mentioned a Ferrari, just a white sports car. According to Linda Kasabian, Charlie and the gang pulled up next to a white sports car at a light on Sunset. In 1969, I would figure a "white sports car" was most likely a ragtop, and on a hot August night would have the top down. Now if I were the sports car driver, at that time of night, I would've glanced over and definitely noticed a 1950s beater car with 7 hippies stuffed into it. And remembering the way the Tate murders flooded the news that day ( I was 13 in 1969 and remember it like yesterday), I would think West, who was an L.A. legend then, would remember it being on that day. I have been following the TLB murders semi-obsessively since 1969, and I have always wondered "who drove the white sports car" that night.
Manson wasn't going to do anything to a 6'2" athlete. He's strictly a slapping around little girls kind of guy.
In the mid-80's I was out at night with a girlfriend. We were driving on Holden Rd in Greensboro. Holden is a four lane and we were in the left lane going southbound. A yellow corvette pulled up next to us and despite slowing down and speeding up it stayed to our right. It was really creepy, especially because the windows were heavily tinted. The car finally turned away, but it was only because I showed it my .38.
You just don't forget things like that.
Gorodish,
I don’t think it was Jerry West. I thought it was humorous that yet another 60’s era celebrity would yet again insert himself into the case. Jerry must have been busy on the 8th so he couldn’t be invited to dinner at Cielo.
Initially, it doesn't seem like he's glory hunting as he stresses that he doesn't know if it was Manson. Then he spoils it by saying that it was specified that it was a Ferrari when it wasn't. The way Jerry quotes it, it looks like he is saying Charlie said he'd followed a Ferrari.
For the record, Charlie, during his trial, doesn't dismiss the tale of a sports car chase. And Manson specifically says it was an XKE Jaguar {known in England when I was a kid as an E type Jag}, not a Ferrari. Hence:
"We speed down the highway in a 1958 automobile that won't go but fifty, and an XKE Jaguar goes by, and I state to Clem, 'Catch him Clem, and we'll rob him or steal all of his money,' you know. And he says, 'What shall we do?' I say, 'Hit him on the head with a hammer.' We magical mystery tour it.
Then Linda Kasabian gets on the stand and says: 'They were going to kill a man, they were going to kill a man in an automobile.'
To you, it seems serious."
It's interesting Clem is mentioned in the way he is, both because he was along on that night and more significantly, because he was, with Charlie and Linda, in the front of the car.
Pax Vobiscum said...
before settling on Harold True's former neighbors, Leno and Rosemary LaBianca
Was it ever confirmed that they were neighbours ? Had they moved in before Harold moved out ?
grimtraveller said....
... Harold True's former neighbors, Leno and Rosemary LaBianca
"Was it ever confirmed that they were neighbours?"
No. Most sources indicate that True moved out before the LaBianca's moved in.
I think Harvey Weinstein also made a similar claim but he's in so much recent trouble that I can't find it on Google.
Matt, that's creep af.
Creepy not creep. Although the dude was clearly a creep.
So, Linda was at Harold's a year before but she only met Charlie and crew around the 4th of July? And she was also in traffic court in May in MA. and was convicted of driving on a suspended license before heading west? Is proof of her being in court in May somewhere online? And by online I mean am I missing it on Cielo probably.
Greenwhite said: "And she was also in traffic court in May in MA. and was convicted of driving on a suspended license before heading west? Is proof of her being in court in May somewhere online?"
New Hampshire not MA and right here
http://www.mansonblog.com/2016/08/the-unhappy-odyssey-of-linda-kasabian.html
Item #10. Wednesday, May 7, 1969.
Thank you, David. I remember that post. As I learn more and more though about the case I realize when I go back and re-read things that I wasn't even close to understanding what the writers were telling me at times when it was all brand new to me.
GreenWhite,
You are welcome. Since I wrote it I kind of had an advantage there (wink).
Always been an interesting issue to me. If it her license was suspended and the suspension not withdrawn then Bugliosi’s stated reason why she was chosen was not accurate. Did she fix the suspension for whatever it was for? I never was able to determine that.
David, between insane sounding rants about SVH, Brian Davis recently pointed out on his radio show that LK was denied entrance into the jail to visit Bobby because she didn't have a valid ID. And then she bailed when Charlie sent her back the next day. Clearly, I need to go back and re-read every word ever written about and spoken on record by Linda. Your earlier post is a great starting place. Do you think she slowed Parent long enough for Tex to get him or are you on board with the "Halt!" story at the gate?
GreenWhite said...
between insane sounding rants about SVH, Brian Davis recently pointed out on his radio show that LK was denied entrance into the jail to visit Bobby because she didn't have a valid ID
On the website, some of those comments are addressed to me. I will get around to answering them one day !
He took down last night’s show already :(
starviego said...
"Most sources indicate that True moved out before the LaBianca's moved in."
Does anybody know if the True house was occupied at the time of TLB?
"We speed down the highway in a 1958 automobile that won't go but fifty,..."
We know it was really a 1959 Ford Fairlane.
'59 Ford: Post from March 24th, 2011
http://www.mansonblog.com/2011/03/59-ford.html
Tim A. said...
"We speed down the highway in a 1958 automobile that won't go but fifty,..."
We know it was really a 1959 Ford Fairlane
I think he was trying to make light of the fact that it wasn't a new classy car whereas the E~type jag was, in trying to demonstrate how a story could be spun one way when his explanation of what really happened was quite ordinary and harmless fun.
GreenWhite said...
Brian Davis recently pointed out on his radio show that LK was denied entrance into the jail to visit Bobby because she didn't have a valid ID
It strikes me that there could be a few reasons for being denied entry. Perhaps she didn't actually have the licence on that particular visit but made sure to have it the next day. It has long struck me that it obviously wasn't a big deal to Charlie because he sent her again the next day. Also, during the trial, Kasabian is asked about her licence more than once and by the defence lawyers too. It would have been so easy to check out her licence and if it was found to be defunct at the time she was saying it was street legal, just think of how much hay could have been made of the fact that the star witness has been caught out in a lie like that. That would have undermined the prosecution's case because her testimony was crucial. I just can't believe the prosecution would have been that stupid, particularly as one of their strong suits was parading her immoral ways for all to see in such a way that any defence attempts to do likewise were ineffective as they'd gotten in there first.
It has never been established exactly why Linda was along on both nights. Cappy in a recent Manson documentary said she was more involved in murder than ever came out, Pat said to Guinn that she wasn't trying to stop the Cielo onslaught and was just as willing as everyone else, Atkins in her last book tried to show that there was nothing she did that Linda didn't do, George Stimson said she was part of it because she owed Charlie for protecting her from her husband when he came to get his mate's $5000 back, others have said she was very vocal about killing in order to free Bobby. It was Bugliosi who put it out there that it was because of her valid licence that she was involved. That it has taken on the status of fact is partly his doing and partly not because he makes it clear that although he thought that was part of the reason {he also explains part of another reason to Laurence Merrick & his wife in "Death to pigs"} he did not know why for sure and was speculating. But he's stated the licence theory enough times for it to become one of those things that people feel can be taken a shot at. It leaves the impression that something is not quite right there.
I would be skeptical about anything Cappy, Patricia, or Sadie said regarding Linda. And why would she owe Charlie? Who gave who $5000? And the only ones that tried floating the idea that she was behind the freeing Brother Bobby motive are Patricia, Saddie and Leslie.
My opinion is that Linda actually had less to do with the murders than she testified to, but embellished her story to make her testimony more valuable to the prosecution. I think the first night, she spent most of the time hiding in the back seat of the car.
I don't believe West. He really didn't offer up specifics, just that he had a white ferrari, and read in HS that Charlie follow a white sports car the night of the LBs and then assumed it could of been him.
David said...
I don’t think it was Jerry West. I thought it was humorous that yet another 60’s era celebrity would yet again insert himself into the case. Jerry must have been busy on the 8th so he couldn’t be invited to dinner at Cielo.
Thanks David, I did take your article as somewhat tongue-in-cheek. I'd never heard the West story before and have always wondered why nobody every claimed to be the driver of the legendary white sports car.
Peter said...
I would be skeptical about anything Cappy, Patricia, or Sadie said regarding Linda. And why would she owe Charlie? Who gave who $5000? And the only ones that tried floating the idea that she was behind the freeing Brother Bobby motive are Patricia, Saddie and Leslie.
At Tex Watson's urging, Linda stole $5000 from her (ex?) husband Bob's friend Charles Melton, and gave it to Manson. Her motivation was most likely acceptance into the fold. Melton and Bob Kasabian came to Spahn to get the money back, but Charlie gave them one of his "maybe I should kill you" spiels and they left empty-handed. I agree with the theory that Charlie took her along to the murders as one of those "I had your back now you owe me" agreements a la Tex/Bernard Crowe. I do agree with you that Linda, as misguided as her acts were, was no killer, and the "Free Bobby" thing was not a major factor in the killings.
Peter said...
I would be skeptical about anything Cappy, Patricia, or Sadie said regarding Linda
Trust me Pete, I am. I mentioned them only to illustrate the paucity of a genuine reason brought forth as to why Linda was ever along in the first place.
I often try to show when a person said a particular thing because the when is sometimes as important as the what.
And why would she owe Charlie? Who gave who $5000?
Linda handed over the $5000 but when the guy she nicked it from and her husband came up to Spahn to get it back, Charlie protected her and sent them on their way and as a result, she owed him, according to George's argument.
starviego said...
starviego said...
"Most sources indicate that True moved out before the LaBianca's moved in."
Does anybody know if the True house was occupied at the time of TLB?
I believe the property where True lived had multiple residences, it wasn't a single home on the property. There are a half dozen or so residences there now.
Looking at a 1968 reverse street directory for Waverly Dr. it shows Mrs. A La Bianca at 3301 but there are no other odd numbered addresses in the 3300 block. I'm not sure what the address was at the True home but I don't see a True listed for 1968 on Waverly. He may not have been the primary renter.
http://rescarta.lapl.org/ResCarta-Web/jsp/RcWebImageViewer.jsp?doc_id=026bc4f2-52f9-4cbf-b1e4-12291b1cd6d0%2fLPU00000%2fLL000001%2f00000010
And here's a link to the 1969 reverse street directory where neither True or the La Bianca's are named as being on Waverly.
http://rescarta.lapl.org/ResCarta-Web/jsp/RcWebImageViewer.jsp?doc_id=026bc4f2-52f9-4cbf-b1e4-12291b1cd6d0%2fLPU00000%2fLL000001%2f00000011
As for the house Harold True rented next door, at the time of the
murders (and since at least 1963) it was owned by a Julia Posella and
Seglinda Joya Posella Bergstrom. Right after the murders, on Aug 29,
1969 they sold the house to Leon Berberian and Armine Berberian, no
doubt related to the people who acquired the LaBianca's house. The LaBianca's property
officially transfered from the their Estate's ownership to Dikran
Berberian on February 9, 1971.
As an aside, Dikran Berberian assumed what remained unpaid on the mortgage on Leno and Rosemary's house ($41,997.25) and paid Corina LaBianca, the Executrix of the estate, $13,752.75 in cash for a grand total of $55,750.00. Now it's nearly a 2 million dollar property.
Katy Perry recently purchased the former monastery on the other side of the La Bianca home. The property will continue to go up in value, a nice neighborhood in L.A.
Pistol packing Matt I wouldn't have ever pictured that. I occasionally pack a snubby 44 special myself a big no no here in Jersey
I had never heard Charlie's explanation of the incident before. Very interesting. A silly joking statement could seem sinister under the circumstances. And under the mind opening influence of acid ( not to mention how one's judgment would be effected by speed) you could take things of of context and place significance where it's unwarranted.
The hated Laker has become top executive of my Warriors, the best team ever right now. I gave up on the NBA after the corrupt officiating in the 2016 finals; but, if there's ever a fun team to watch, this side of the Globetrotters, it's these warriors
starviego said...
Does anybody know if the True house was occupied at the time of TLB?
I reckon Charlie thought so, judging by the way his directions after much aimless wandering and no closer to a kill suddenly became somewhat specific.
I also reckon he was well aware that Harold True was no longer there, no matter what he says.
Peter said...
My opinion is that Linda actually had less to do with the murders than she testified to, but embellished her story to make her testimony more valuable to the prosecution. I think the first night, she spent most of the time hiding in the back seat of the car
But one does not cancel out the other. She could still have heard or seen the shooting of Parent, seen some of the stabbings of Frykowski and Abigail then run off and hidden for the rest of the time in the back of or under the car.
GreenWhite said...
So, Linda....was also in traffic court in May in MA. and was convicted of driving on a suspended license before heading west?
David pointed out that "it could either be she didn’t have a license with her when asked to present one and later produced it or it could mean she simply didn’t have a valid drivers’ license at all."
If it was the latter, would that conviction have prevented her from taking the driving test and obtaining a licence before July when she came to Spahn ?
grimtraveller said...
I reckon Charlie thought so, judging by the way his directions after much aimless wandering and no closer to a kill suddenly became somewhat specific.
If so, why didn't he choose the True house as a target--in line with choosing houses where they had been before, ala Cielo Dr? Did they get there, see that the house was dark, and figured nobody was there, and so just choose a neighboring house?
(Thanks DebS for the additional info!)
I always found this segment a little strange. Apparently Manson can bring a snake to life on his say so, but when he says he is going to kill a his random guy, the guy drives off, leaving Manson looking like a total eejit on the road?! And no one questioned this? Manson shuffled back into the car after his big proclamation and it was ay-ok?
Just a little theory of mine, but in a sense the seeds of:
why didn't he choose the True house as a target--in line with choosing houses where they had been before, ala Cielo Dr?
can be found in:
I always found this segment a little strange. Apparently Manson can bring a snake to life on his say so, but when he says he is going to kill a his random guy, the guy drives off, leaving Manson looking like a total eejit on the road?! And no one questioned this? Manson shuffled back into the car after his big proclamation and it was ay-ok?
The idea of the second night was to show the previous nights set of murderers {now split into 2 groups} how it should be done. Even in 2013 Charlie was telling Rolling Stone that Cielo would have gone better had he been there. He considered Waverley as better because he was involved. But on the night in question, up to the point of the sports car incident, it had been failures, mishaps, indecision, changing minds etc and I think with Charlie's competitive nature, it wasn't lost on him that the night before, even he'd been surprised that the killers were "home so early" with 5 deaths behind them and that the deaths had made the news big time, all day long. On this night they'd been out for hours and as yet, nothing. I reckon at that point, the former True house was the target. He knew where it was, he knew how to get there, he assumed the house next door, that he did know well, was empty because he'd always known it to be empty {he told Vanity Fair in 2011 and Rolling Stone in 2013 he'd been in the house before when he visited Harold. True who had moved in in Sept '67 and moved out in Sept '68 according to his testimony in Leslie's 2nd trial said both there and elsewhere that there wasn't anyone living next door}. He also knew Harold no longer lived at Waverley and I think his target was 3 housemates that True had shared the house with, Allen Swerdloff, Ernest Baltzell and Harry Yost. When Harold was moving out, Charlie had wanted to move in and asked True but he said it wasn't for him to say, to ask the other 3 and the 3 housemates said 'no'. I suspect when Charlie thought of a surefire place to show the others in the car "how it should be done" an obvious place was the former True house and having rejected his request to live in the house, those 3 were hardly his favourite people.
Starviego said...
Did they get there, see that the house was dark, and figured nobody was there, and so just choose a neighboring house?
What Charlie didn't know was that Swerdloff, Baltzell & Yost had moved out not long after True. He knew Harold wasn't there {why else would he have asked if he could move in once Harold had gone ?} so if, by his own admission to George and Vanity Fair he went to Harold's house, why ?
It was his curiosity at seeing a light on next door and a dog that made him go to the LaBiancas so in that context, it was random. It works out to be a straightforward puzzle fit; if the LaBianca house was thought to be empty and the True house occupied, then it was isolated. If the True house turns out to have no one there but the house next door is occupied, it's just as isolated as the True house would have been had the positions been reversed.......
Charlie didn't exactly help his cause when he told George Stimson he remembered telling the killers not to let the victims know they were going to be killed.
Someone said in the last post about Gibbie Folger, that she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Actually, that could apply to most of them. Given that they'd had that long drive then dropped Rosemary's daughter home, it certainly applied to the LaBiancas.
Grim, that makes total sense! It all flows.
How do you keep all this information - names, places, times...in your brain? It’s incredible. I wish I could.
Some say it's a gift, some say it's a curse, some say it gets on their blasted nerves !
So on the subject of the white sports car is there just LK and CM's testimonies and the Jerry West interview?
Grim thanks for the CM testimony transcript. I found amusing that he had Clem saying "what SHALL we do?"
Dan said, "I gave up on the NBA after the corrupt officiating in the 2016 finals; but, if there's ever a fun team to watch, this side of the Globetrotters, it's these warriors"
Your warriors lost the finals in 2016 and you blame it on poor officiating? They are not the best of all time, just best this year and last year.
It is amazing how many people publicly made claims that they were "supposed" to be at Cielo Drive the night of the murders, but some miracle stood in their way and saved them. People want to be a part of big events, both good and bad. Mr. West had a white sports car and wants to believe he may have been the person targeted by Manson. There were probably thousands of people in L.A. who could make that claim for that night.
In April 2016, a poor white family of 8 in rural, southern Ohio were murdered, at 4 different, but nearby locations. The murders included a middle aged woman, her three children, future daughter-in-law, ex-husband, brother-in-law and a cousin. The 3-year-old, 6-month-old and 3-day-old grandchildren were spared. The crime remains unsolved, and during the 2+ years since the murders, more than a dozen people have claimed they had plans to spend the evening at one or another of those locations the night of the murders. I don't really understand the desire to attach oneself to these horrific events, especially in the Ohio case, as claiming to be expected guests could make a person a suspect.
It’s a gift.
StillGrooving said...
It is amazing how many people publicly made claims that they were "supposed" to be at Cielo Drive the night of the murders, but some miracle stood in their way and saved them. People want to be a part of big events, both good and bad
Maybe it says something about a certain strand of the celebrity mentality.
What's also interesting are people who we know just missed out on death because of various decisions not to come to or stay at Cielo like Witold K, Mrs Chapman and Debbie Tate. It doesn't seem that they joined that club of people who delighted in telling the world that they "could've been there" even though they really did have that claim.
Thinking about it, there's certain people that may have run into any of the 7 that were out on the night the LaBiancas were killed and they don't seem to be of the "I ran into the killers that night" ilk. There's people that might have seen them at Denny's restaurant, the gas station near Sylmar, the two cops by the beach, the guy whose door Linda knocked on, the people that lived in the house next to the Malibu Feedbin and the various people that gave the various perps lifts when they were hiking back to Spahn. Even the guy that came looking for Leslie. And {for different reasons that had nothing to do with him, but are no less real} I suppose one could put Saladin Nader into that crowd.
Perhaps some of them have, but I've not been aware of any. They certainly couldn't find any before and during the trial. If there have been, I'd be fascinated to see what they said and how they put it.
"Wouldn't the house be shared marital property? And if so wouldn't Suzan and Frank Jr get a share of the proceeds?"
The house was Leno's sole and separate property as it was acquired prior to his marriage to Rosemary. Whether her children got a share of the proceeds from his estate depends on what his will stated, if he had one. Absent a will, he had a daughter, Cory, who would have been more entitled to whatever remained -after paying off all the creditors- than Suzan and Frank, Jr.
Rosemary had a separate probate as Corina LaBianca was only the Administrator of Leno's estate which dealt with selling the house.
Corrupt officiating. Not poor officiating. Donaghy the ref was in jail for fixing games and Scott Foster the ref in the finals called him 100 times. No other ref he called, just him. Dramond was assessed a technical AFTER the game leading to his suspension. I'm calling out Scott Foster; why was he even assigned to the games as he's rated about the worst? Anyway, 73 wins, virtual sweep last year of the playoffs, 5 all stars starting with cousins on board plus Igou off the bench.... I tried to give it up after they won their 1st (as a long time suffering dubs fan I felt the miracle had been accomplished and I wanted to stop tv time burgling myself) but then they started the season with a 25 game win streak and sucked me back in- and that was before Durant so the splash bros were really something to watch (Klay had 37 in a quarter!). But i'm out now. Tour de France starts tomorrow! Ok now back to the Family jams
That must have been a very roomy sports car. Jerry West is on youtube claiming to be 6'4.5" tall.
I guess there probably were a lot of people who thought they could have been the one in the sports car that night, but Jerry West is famous and so is the only one we can read in an interview. Since Helter Skelter didn't come out until years later anyone who thinks it could have been them would have to read the book and rely on an old fuzzy memory.
And I guess the fact that so many people attached themselves to the Tate residence as opposed to people who might have seen them on the second night would also have to do with the ones claiming a brush with infamy are celebrities who have the ear of the press. There's probably lots of people we don't know who told friends and family they think they might have seen the killers on one of those nights.
It also makes me think of the woman who was said to have identified Tex as the one she saw at the Stubbs residence in Olancha. She saw Tex on TV months later and thought it was or could have been him.
Gorodish said...
I have always wondered "who drove the white sports car" that night
According to Linda, the sports car incident was the first thing she ever spoke to Bugliosi about. Prior to the day she was taken out of jail to see 10050 Cielo, she said that she'd never spoken to him before and on the journey out there, this came up.
What an ice breaker !
I think she must have meant it was the first thing she spoke to him about on the day they went to Cielo. She gives different answers to Fitzgerald and Shinn when they ask her about the first time she spoke to Bugliosi. The above point refers to her answer to Fitzgerald.
Cats if your still out there could you get me accepted at the Maury Terry facebook page. I miss you and your Truth on Tate/LaBianca, but I get it, it is disheartening when people keep dying around this case especially the innocent.
Hate NJ & getting out soon. Keep it in your pocket.
Late on this I know, but the Leno, who was born in that house, had just bought it from his mother in 1968 or so. The house had been in the family all along, so Leno would have certainly been aware of Harold True and the others living there...
starship said...
the Leno, who was born in that house, had just bought it from his mother in 1968 or so. The house had been in the family all along, so Leno would have certainly been aware of Harold True and the others living there...
Would he ? If, in the whole time True, Swerdloff, Baltzell and Yost lived in the house they knew next door to be empty and never saw anyone there, to the extent that when Charlie visited they were able to go into the house to {as Charlie put it to Rolling Stone} "fall on girls", that wouldn't make any awareness on Leno's part of the actual identities of the people next door at all certain.
I didn't mean Leno would have known their actual identities, but it was a nuisance house and I'm not at all sure why the LaBianca house would have been empty for long periods of time. Ususally Leno's mother or some other family members occupied it.
starship said...
but it was a nuisance house
Was it ? Do we have evidence of that ? When it became known that Charlie was acquainted with someone living next door, weren't inquiries made about possible conflict arising between the occupants of the LaBianca's but none turned up because the house had been empty during the True tenure ?
I think there's significance to the point that Manson was familiar with the internal layout of the LaBianca house, by his own admission. What's equally interesting is that the fact he'd been in the house wasn't known at the time of the investigation, hence, some of the head scratching on the part of Bugliosi, other investigators and researchers as well as the spotlight shone on Suzan LaBerge, Joe Dorgan, and the notion of Rosemary LaBianca as the acid queen of Los Feliz and the mysterious black book and Mafia hit subsequently, when people wondered 'why the LaBiancas ?'.
I'm not at all sure why the LaBianca house would have been empty for long periods of time
Well, Leno's Mum owned the house. In a sense, unless she was in some debt and needed the money, it wouldn't have made any difference to her whether it was empty or occupied, presuming it was already paid for. It's an assumption on my part, but given that Leno grew up there for a while and the house had been in the family for ages, it would seem that it was paid for. So for Leno's Mum, it was a win~win. She gains if the house is sold, she doesn't lose if the house is unoccupied.
Grim said: "Was it ? Do we have evidence of that ?"
Harold True in his interview with Stovitz says the police were called once while they lived there.
A bunch of college kids living in a house together in 1969? That in itself speaks to the possibility of it being a nuisance house.
So too:
Manson and his girls partying in the house with Harold True. I'm sure those parties were something.
Linda Kasabian and her gang partying in the True house, long before she had ever met Manson...
David said...
Harold True in his interview with Stovitz says the police were called once while they lived there
starship said...
A bunch of college kids living in a house together in 1969? That in itself speaks to the possibility of it being a nuisance house
True and Baltzell were 28 in the summer of '68, hardly kids. But I agree, there was a possibility of that house being a nuisance house. But there's no evidence of that being the case. Yes, the Police were called once in True's time there, he said that the cops turned up in the early hours just as they were taking someone home and there was no problem. He even goes on to say one of their neighbours was a cop.
I remember once, I let my mate's sister have her birthday party in the house I lived in. Loads of drugs and people turned up and a riotous time was had by all and at 7am, the Police came to the house and said "I think you'd all better start getting home." It was crazy that night, one guy that lived in the house twice pulled the fuses in protest and later tried to land me in the soup with our landlord.
But despite that visit by the police, ours wouldn't be looked upon as a nuisance house. That's how I'd view the True house. One cop visit does not a problem house make.
Does anyone think there is connection between Leonard Posella jr investigation (possible suspects) and the tenants living in home owned by Julia Posella and seglinda posella bergstrom home
The following is my entry into Quora a few years ago: under Charles J. Neilson or "Chazz": "I think I was very nearly killed by Manson himself on the night the LaBiancas were killed.
I later read Helter Skelter in 1976 and I never forgot the chill I felt when I read the part where Manson directed his driver, Linda Kasabian, in the 59 Fairlane Ford to stop next to a a little white sports car as they were heading east on Sunset Blvd back to Hollywood where they eventually left to find the LaBiancas. It described this sports car as being followed by Manson after one lighted intersection and then a second where he intended to stab (or ? shoot) the reported young white man alone in this sports car. As Manson got out to walk up on the unsuspecting guy, the light turned green and the sports car jackrabbited onward eastward totally unaware of how close he came to being murdered.
When I read that, I could not help thinking that I left the UCLA campus near midnight nearly every night of the week after using the library for a study hall and that I always left on the northern end of the campus (on Sunset Blvd) which was essentially an isolated almost desolate area during 1969. I would turn eastward and there was another lighted intersection further down with residential homes nearby. I also recall that there were no other white sports cars on campus, only green, red, yellow, camouflage, etc but not white. As a sports car nut, I was tuned in to that fact. Furthermore, the moment I read that part, I recalled quite vividly one night during that year when I was at a lighted intersection near the UCLA campus, where it had always been quiet and devoid of traffic, that a car’s bright lights were shining behind me and then somewhat to my left.
I can remember an uncanny uncomfortable feeling of my usual isolated space there on Sunset Blvd. being intruded by this car. I can see the overwhelming brightness of light and a car’s engine noise right beside me to this day. I had a bone white 1961 Triumph TR3 with the top up but the side curtains (extensive plastic windows with additional door coverings) were not bolted on and my elbow was hanging out probably 20 inches from the pavement, quite a tempting exposure to Manson if he had seen it I have always joked to my friends after reading this that if a cop ever stopped me and rided me over my jackrabbit starts, I would tell him how it actually saved my life many years ago!
I have never won the lottery or been lucky to have things fall easily into my lap, but I have been to Vietnam and back without a scratch, made it through tough times getting into and through medical school without any financial support from my family, and several paranormal experiences where I (or my son) could have been killed or died.
Maybe we all have luck given to us in ways we don’t expect. Maybe those who work hard in life for their rewards are given a break they never realized. I sometimes wonder if I was given my full life in return for having demonstrated (to God) that my goal to become a physician and provide competent medical care to humanity was on track by virtue of my tenacious efforts to succeed.
Regardless, a lot of time has passed since then and I still can see that would-be murder scene in my TR3 as the point in my life where I might not have had to endure later hardships, my brain surgery at age 52), etc.
A Chinese proverb states a stone will roll either of two ways from a rooftop. I am thankful that my fate gave me a full life in spite of some of the tough parts. It is interesting that I knew in all likelihood that I was that guy in the sports car since the day I read the book. I have never seen any information anywhere that would make my contention less probable. I am certain I was the guy.
Charles J. Neilson MD Sugar Land, Texas 77478
I often look back at the time when the light turned green and I instantly jackrabbited onward. I have thought, “Could God have given me just enough opportunity to avoid death at that moment….and thereby live a full lifetime as a physician, doing God’s work, so to speak……or die instantly and forever avoid the long grind to become a physician, the long delay before acquiring favorable financial status, the school loans, the adverse effect on my first marriage, etc. and bypassing all these hassles on Earth in order to get right to an eternal spiritual existence.” So, I have always looked at that moment as the time “God won” and I was allowed to do his bidding, albeit not without some suffering for many years. I entered into Family Practice eventually, not a highly lucrative field, but after having a brain hemorrhage and brain surgery at age 52, I switched to full time emergency medicine and have been quite happy since then. In the scheme of things, God, nevertheless, did win.
Charles J. Neilson MD, Sugar Land, Texas 77478
My “supposition” that I was “that guy” is based on quite a few circumstantial facts:
1) Back in 1969, the late night traffic around midnight on the northern border of the UCLA campus (on Sunset Blvd) was virtually non-existent. An occasional solitary car every 4 to 6 minutes might drive by. My leaving campus at midnight every night and driving up to the northern edge of campus to get onto the quiet and car-free Sunset Blvd was noticeable enough to make me feel like my space was being encroached when I noted a noisy car with its lights brightly shining on me. I even remember having my hair stand on end during that experience.
2) The trial testimony by Linda Kasabian revealed that the person that Manson had directed her to follow was a “single male driving a small white sports car”.
3) Again, I was the sole (male) driver of a “small white sports car” on Sunset Blvd every night around midnight during August of 1969.
4) I was always driving eastward on Sunset Blvd as described in trial testimony when I left the campus around midnight during that late summer.
5) I was a sports car enthusiast and I always checked out any and all sports cars in the various UCLA parking lots.....and I never saw a WHITE sports car. I was very aware that I probably had the only white sports car. There were red, yellow, black, green (BRG), camoflaged, Hippy styled (flowers, psychedelic, etc.) but no white ones, which always struck me as interesting.
6) My sports car was a 1961 Triumph TR3A, which is a fairly small sports car when compared to the larger Austin Healey (not the “Sprite”), Jaguar XKE or XK120, AC Cobra, Corvette, Lamborghini, Porsche 911, Aston Martin, Mercedes-Benz 300SL, etc. It was no doubt a “smaller” sports car of that time.
7) I remember loud valve lifters when stopped with lights shining on my back and almost blinding me. Manson’s car was a 1959 Fairlane Ford, which has noisy lifters.
8) I have always been a “jackrabbit” starter as far as driving habits go and I still drive that way. When that light turned green, I remember hauling out fast. Remember that I felt my space encroached, hair standing on the end of my neck, bright lights blinding me, and I still remember that incident today. When I read Helter Skelter, this incident actually came into view in my mind and I recognized the scenario quite well. I actually had hair stand on end on my neck once again.
9) I emailed, I think “Mark Lane”, or someone like that, who was the webmaster of http://CharleyManson.com, and who was a self-styled authority on all that was the Manson story. He said that there were several Manson “near victims”, who were known individuals, but that this particular near victim, the “white male in the small white sports car”, had never been identified. He said my story certainly seemed plausible and that no one else had ever claimed to be that victim.
10) Without any other person to come forward who lived during that time in August 1969, who drove down Sunset Blvd at midnight in a small white sports car, who was a white male, and who, like most Los Angelenos, was cognizant of the Charles Manson family stories, I have to wonder why no one else has come forward as that possible near victim? Charles J. Neilson
Charles - thank you for sharing this with us. And, providing such detailed supporting evidence. Life is both kooky and, precious...you most certainly experienced the exact moment where kooky and precious crossed one another. Thankfully, you lived and, spent your life helping others.
Cheers
Doug said:
Charles - thank you for sharing this with us. And, providing such detailed supporting evidence
Evidence that torpedos his tale in an instant. For Charles "Chazz" states:
"I had a bone white 1961 Triumph TR3" and "My sports car was a 1961 Triumph TR3A, which is a fairly small sports car when compared to the larger Austin Healey (not the “Sprite”), Jaguar XKE", while Charlie, on the stand states the make. As I stated earlier, "For the record, Charlie, during his trial, doesn't dismiss the tale of a sports car chase. And Manson specifically says it was an XKE Jaguar {known in England when I was a kid as an E type Jag}".
When they say the Devil is in the detail, well, sometimes, he is.
Most importantly here, If we are to choose one testimony over another, I find it easier to accept Linda Kasabian's testimony in the Manson trial where she testified, "Yes, after I had been driving for a few minutes there was a small white sports car in front of us...." She said "SMALL" white sports car. Compared to an XKE, Austin Healey, Jaguar, and the like, a Triumph TR3 is pretty darn small comparatively. Only a Triumph Spitfire or MG Midget seem to be any smaller. Manson's tale spinning was never very credible.
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