We know that Charles Milles Manson Jr. aka Jay Charles White committed suicide. The general reason for the suicide is presumed to revolve around the premise that his father Charles Manson had something to do with his decision. There have been online stories that Jay committed suicide after a prison visit to Charlie but Jay never, to anyone's knowledge, visited Charlie in prison. Jay wrote his father in prison but never got a direct reply to his letters. I have spoken to someone who told me that Jay visited with TJ Walleman and his wife Ansom sometime before his death and that seems to be as close to communicating with Charlie that Jay was able to accomplish.
Jason Freeman seems to believe that Jay could not live with the fact that he was Charles Manson's son. Jason's belief is likely pure supposition because Jason never saw Jay White after he was around nine years old, according to statements made by Jason's mother Shawn in the book Hunting Charles Manson by Lis Wiehl and Caitlin Rother page 266. (I have a readers edition of the book so the page number might off by a couple of pages)
I believe that Jay's suicide was most likely due to fact that he was heavily in debt with no end in sight in his near future because two of those debts were child support. I have a few documents to support my belief. While being the son of Charles Manson may have weighed on him, he had lived with that fact for 37 years and had done nothing to make his life any better than his father's life had been. Jay hadn't finished high school, he had trouble holding a job, he drank and did drugs. He seemed to blame outlying circumstances rather than his own actions for his troubles.
In 1985 when Jason was nine years old Shawn Freeman Moreland filed a paternity suit with Tuscarawas County Ohio to try to obtain child support for Jason from Jay White aka Charles Manson Jr.. Shawn had not stated a father on Jason's birth certificate. The earliest date I could find for the paternity suit was Sept. 13, 1985 which was the postmark on a certified letter sent to Jay in Texas and signed by Jay. The paternity suit would follow Jay from Texas to Nevada over the years until his death in 1993.
Jay married Elisabeth Faye Noel in Clark County (Las Vegas) Nevada on June 29, 1985 where his mother Rosalie was living with her fourth husband Warren Handley.
Apparently Jay and Elisabeth lived in Texas though because their son Paul was born Jan. 25, 1986 in Galveston Texas. By 1988 and perhaps sooner Jay and Elisabeth had moved to Henderson Nevada. They were both house painters. Elisabeth wanted a better life than that of a house painter so decided to go to college and earn a degree. According to my sources Elisabeth tried to talk Jay into getting his GED and go on to college, too, but he wanted none of that.
Between 1988 and 1992 Elisabeth went to the University of Nevada - Las Vegas and earned a Bachelor of Science degree in civil engineering. By early to mid 1993 Elisabeth had grown apart from Jay and filed for divorce which was granted June 9, 1993 just 20 days before Jay's suicide on June 29, 1993.
By the time of his death Jay was in debt to the Tuscarawas County Child Support Enforcement Agency for nearly $18,000 for Jason's child support. He had future child support payments for son Paul that would have totaled a minimum of $24,400. if the support amount of $200. per month was never raised before Paul reached 18 years of age. He had the debt of paying for half of his ex-wife's college education and couple of other bills. Also, if Jay were to not pay the child support his wages could be garnished.
It's doubtful that Jay White was thinking much about his infamous father when decided to take his own life. He was probably thinking about what a lousy future he had in store largely due to his own actions. You can blame your parents for how you turned out but you can only blame yourself if you stay that way.
90 comments:
Poor Junior. Was it his fault that, when he got married, women were no longer content to live in a shack or grocery shop out of a dumpster?
Child Support? Too plastic, man.
Do we know what became of son Paul?
I do not know specifically what became of Paul though I did find he has a couple of marijuana related arrests in a very red state.
"Too plastic, man." LOL! Great post, DebS. I was hanging out here reading posts from 2012 and overheard Stoner announce the post via my headphones.
Sorry for the rookie question- who was his mother?
Rosalie was CM Jr.'s mother. I don't blame you at all for not knowing who's who. Both of Charlie's sons pre-Family were named Charles. His son by Leona was Charles Luther. Both of those sons were re-named Jay, Jay White and Jay Warner, and both died in Colorado.
Here's an old post on Rosalie which might help.
http://www.mansonblog.com/2013/09/people-passing-through-our-lives.html
DebS said...
Both of Charlie's sons pre-Family were named Charles....Both of those sons were re-named Jay, ....and both died in Colorado
That's priceless ! What are the odds ?!?
Thanks Deb!
Super interesting article, thanks for sharing. I’ve never tracked all of the children or put much thought into “where are they now”. Reading about Susan Atkins fellating her infant son put ALL of the Manson Family kids in a box of “off limits” for me. Aside from the murder victims, they are also all victims.
Astrocreep said: "Susan Atkins fellating her infant son..."
A) What book is that from?
B) Her kids were placed in foster care, I believe. Wonder if they know who their real parents are and what became of them?
I believe the bit about Atkins fellating the infant son was in Bugliosi's "Helter Skelter", but I could be wrong.
It was, but you can also google it- it’s cited all over the place.
Sorry, it isn't that I don't believe you, I just had never heard that before. Creepy!
It’s f’ing disgusting. And I’d imagine a group of chowderheads sitting around watching it happen talking about how beautiful it is for her love-
I think I'll pass on googling "Susan Atkins fellating infant son"
So what does your dad do for a living???
Gorodish said...
I believe the bit about Atkins fellating the infant son was in Bugliosi's "Helter Skelter", but I could be wrong
Though it's in "Helter Skelter" it's only as a description of the kind of things Susan told Ronnie Howard. It actually came up {no pun intended} originally in an interview in late November '69 with Howard.
SERGEANT PATCHETT: What else did she talk about besides these murders? You say she mentioned her kid, now and then?
MS. HOWARD: Yeah, how she used to masturbate him, make him get a hard on, a little one, I forget how old seventeen months or something she said.
Q: She did that to the boy?
A: Yeah, imagine.
Q: Did she tell you the name of the child?
A: Yes, and I can't remember. It is one of those long ones like Abracadabra, or something, I really, I can't remember.
Q: Did she say where she thought of the name for the kid?
A: And then one part is his middle name and the last part is his last name...but she wanted a name that there would never be another one like it. I told her I don't think you'll ever find another one like it.
I don't know as yet whether either Howard or Graham's trial testimony sheds any further light because fellatio isn't mentioned here and it's this interview that Bugliosi and Gentry were referencing. But to be honest, whether masturbation or fellatio, if true, Susan ending up incarcerated was probably the best thing that happened to her son.
AstroCreep said...
Reading about Susan Atkins fellating her infant son put ALL of the Manson Family kids in a box of “off limits” for me
Back in early October '69, before the Family was even arrested out at Barker, Brooks Poston had told the Sheriff " he [Charlie] said once, if he didn’t make it, either his kids, or someone else’s kids would do it. That, the love was in the children. And that, you had to set the children free. And free to him, is making them do obscene sex acts, when they’re old enough to crawl – uh, and uh, old enough to use their mouth."
The children as persons in their own right have never really been of interest to me and with statements like that one and other bits and pieces, I'm not sure I want to delve particularly deep.
Blogger AstroCreep said...
Sorry for the rookie question- who was his mother?
One of the times I read Helter Skelter, I copied and pasted photos of players who I was having trouble recalling, into a document along with descriptions of how they were involved. It helped me know who Vince was talking about.
Now I'm considering doing the same with those who claim to be descended from Charlie and their mothers.
Could these creeps have been any more repulsive? Thieves-check, credit card scammers-check, home invaders-check, murderers-check and now we can add to the list-pedophiles! This discussion also brings to mind how disgusted I was the first time I read about Bobby Beausoleil filling mail orders from prison for custom child spanking drawings to predators outside in the community.
If this post devolves into a discussion of Susan Adkins's perversions involving her children, than i think we can safely say we've reached the bottom.
Is there a reason the photo of Junior was changed at the top of the thread?
As if plunging knives into pregnant women and hearing them gurgle isn’t the bottom? Or tying a dude then torturing him for days having his face hacked up only to be stabbed and suffocated by some pieces of shit for some dough isn’t the bottom? My comment was intended to say that in my personal interests, the kids have been off limits for discussion because it opens a can of very inappropriate worms and they’re truly innocent victims.
starviego said...
Is there a reason the photo of Junior was changed at the top of the thread?
-----
Yes, it was pointed out to me on Facebook that the photo I posted wasn't CM Jr. They gave me a link to the original entire photo which was labeled with that person's name etc. I honestly thought it was CM Jr. when I found it online ages ago because it was labeled as such and sure looked like him to me.
Peter said...
If this post devolves into a discussion of Susan Adkins's perversions involving her children, than i think we can safely say we've reached the bottom
It was mentioned in passing and is relevant because if one talks about Charlie's children, the children of those that had them is also likely to crop up. And following on from that, may be the way children were viewed, brought up, what happened to them, the idea that the numbers of the Family were mooted to grow exponentially in the underground dwelling while Black people ran rampant in the cities etc, etc. That's what happens in conversations involving numbers of people. Different people recall different things and that sparks off other thoughts in others.
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/e7df1a52-3865-42a1-a6bb-29e0c0cca996
The Man in Peter's link said...
Very sordid business
He's not wrong there !
But when you think about it Susan, Dianne, Bruce, Bobby and Charlie {if you believe Nuel Emmons and Dianne Lake} were on the receiving end of sexual shenanigans at young ages. That's obviously no excuse but neither should those episodes be dismissed without consideration of where they contributed to leading.
Off topic but just got some mail that Cappy died... can anyone confirm?
Terrapin said...
Off topic but just got some mail that Cappy died... can anyone confirm?
---
I heard the same thing but cannot confirm it definitively. What I know is that she apparently passed on July 4th 2018. Her Facebook page is no longer up and there are memorial posts on the FB pages of one or more of her children. I was not a FB friend of Cappy or her kids so did not see the posts myself.
I looked for an obit and did not find one which really doesn't mean anything, many people do not have obits.
Ok thanks Deb. I'm not friends with her directly so not sure what happened... she sounded real well in the Reelz doc
It's not just any man. It's Mortimor Duke. Or maybe it's Randolph.
Too bad about Cappy if that's accurate. She was relatively young at 68. I always thought she was the prettiest of the girls, her and Sandy, and I bet it was a blast hanging out with Buffalo Springfield.
AstroCreep said...
"It’s f’ing disgusting. And I’d imagine a group of chowderheads sitting around watching it happen talking about how beautiful it is for her love-"
**********
and likely that includes Clem / Adam Gabriel / Scramblehead / whatever etc ... the guy who many say "deserves a second chance ... he's paid his debt"
Not to mention helping the cops find Shea's remains (after "Clem" had crushed Shea's skull with a pipe)
From the film Chinatown: "of COURSE I'm 'respectable' ... I'm OLD. Politicians, ugly buildings and whores (not to mention pervert murderers) all get respectable if they last long enough."
Peter said...
"Too bad about Cappy if that's accurate. ... I always thought she was the prettiest of the girls"
Yup, she was definitely 'front porch' material!
One of Robert Hendrickson's films has a scene with Cappy walking down a hill where she's as pretty as any model I can think of.
I don't know what you love-bird guys have been smoking but I always thought Gillies was frightening and homicidal. Watch the back when she's around. But I guess it's good-ol-what's-their name once they pass. She always said she'd be raring to go on a murder if Charlie asked. I don't know why he never picked her instead of LVH. It seemed like she was one of if not the last disciple of Charlie, loyal to the end. Maybe he liked her enough to not want to sacrifice (send out to murder) like with the other three.
Peter said " If this post devolves into a discussion of Susan Adkins's perversions involving her children, than i think we can safely say we've reached the bottom. "
Totally agree.
Is anyone keeping track of how many grand and great-grand children Charlie has ? His seed is now spreading unchecked !!!
I have read that Catherine was upset that Charlie didn't select her to go out on August 9-10. It is possible to be upset that you aren't among those chosen and still be glad that you had nothing to do with it. She could be mad that Charlie didn't favor her not that she didn't get to go out and kill people.
Robert C said...
She always said she'd be raring to go on a murder if Charlie asked.
Robert,
I don't remember that. Do you recall when Cappy said it?
Orwhut, it's from a previous posts here about Gillies. It's one of those "secret but totally reliable sources" things.
Peter said...
Orwhut, it's from a previous posts here about Gillies. It's one of those "secret but totally reliable sources" things.
With any luck that source will reveal itself soon.
Orwhut -- in addition to seeing it in writing in several places, I recall hearing her say that in what I believe was an old Bill Nelson vid that included in part a brief Gillies interview. I think he also interviewed her over the phone that was taped and it's in there somewhere as well. But I'm not like Grim and can remember or keep everything up front and center in the mind. Getting real old ;)
And while Peter may have gotten it somewhat right, I believe Gillies was far more pro-Charile hardcore and would have easily murdered if ordered by Charlie back then and who knows, maybe long after. Putting it another way, in my opinion Gillies was part of the most central hardcore of the women that included Fromme, Good, Pitman, and maybe Brunner. And all but maybe Brunner seemed to be dedicated to Charlie well after the murders, like decades.
*** With any luck that source will reveal itself soon. ***
Nelson's dead. Gillies is apparently now dead. The secret totally reliable source may be hard to find now ?
The Great Pumpkin.
She says it in the Nelson interview that is currently on YouTube
Gilles was never one of the big talkers like Squeaky, Brenda or Sandy. I think she liked being part of the circus without needing to be in the Center Ring. That’s why she was a groupie. That’s why she is seen trapesing down the hillside and not in the barn palying with knives and talking about how everyone is going to be sorry. Why she is on the corner in front of the court house and not robbing surplus stores. And why she spent the last 40 years raising a family and feeling the sun on her face instead of rotting in a cell at the California Institute for Women in Corona.
Here you see the true strength of her convictions. She had her chance. The Court was practically begging her.
March 6, 1970 Hearing before Judge Keane Reporters Transcript Vol 2. at 440-42.
DEFENDANT MANSON: There is no God in this courtroom.
CATHERINE SHARE: You are a mockery of justice. You’re a joke.
MARK ROSS: (Loud laughter).
THE COURT: Would you please take those four people, I want their names –
CATHERINE SHARE: There is no justice in the courtroom.
THE COURT: I am going to find that these four people are in direct contempt of this Court.
CATHERINE SHARE: You said the court was over.
MARK ROSS: You said the court was over, your Honor. We were under the impression you dismissed us.
SANDY GOOD: You wouldn’t let him speak anymore, so we can speak.
THE COURT: May I have, please, your name; the first young lady.
CATHERINE SHARE: Catherine Share.
THE COURT: I find that you are in direct contempt of this Court by this outlandish outburst. I find you in contempt of this Court –
CATHERINE SHARE: And everyone.
THE COURT: -- and I sentence you at this time to five days in the Los Angeles County Jail, and I order you remanded to the custody of the Sheriff forthwith. Now your name with the beard?
MARK ROSS: With the beard? Mark Ross.
THE COURT: Mr. Ross, I find that by your outlandish conduct in this court, you are in direct contempt of this Court.
MARK ROSS: I certainly am in contempt of this Court.
THE COURT: I find that you are so. I order that you be remanded to the Los Angeles County Jail for five days for being in direct contempt of this Court, and you are remanded to the custody of the Sheriff. Young lady, your name?
SANDY GOOD: Sandy Good.
THE COURT: Sandy Good, I find that by your outlandish conduct in this Court, reported by the court reporter, that you are in direct contempt of this Court. And I order you remanded to the Los Angeles Jail for five days for being in contempt of this Court.
SANDY GOOD: All right. May I say your conduct has been most outlandish.
THE COURT: May I have your name please?
GATHY GILLIS: Cathy Gillis.
THE COURT: Did you say something? I’m not sure whether you did or did not. If you did say something, I will give you the opportunity now to repeat it. Did you say anything? I heard the other three but I didn’t hear you. Did you say anything to this Court? If you want to say – Tell me at this point what you have to say. Go ahead and say it.
CATHY GILLIS: I have nothing to say to you.
THE COURT: All right. In your case I’m not sure whether you did say anything, you merely stood up with the other three. So in your case at this point I will not find that you are in contempt of this Court. I will excuse you at this time from the courtroom.
Blogger GreenWhite said...
She says it in the Nelson interview that is currently on YouTube
Thank you GW.
Whut
Thanks, Orwhut. Someday that conversation will leave YouTube and that will be that I suppose. Cappy gone. Nelson gone.
"I'd go...poof!"
"Now, your name with the beard?" -that should've been directed towards Catherine Share! Haha.....
^^^
Now THAT'S funny.
What's interesting to me is that for years the top search term in the blog's stats has been "Charles Manson Jr's suicide". Also, since this post went live two days ago it has had over double the page views as last week's post. For one reason or another people are interested in his story...
Hm-m-m .... good effort Peter but not convincing to me. It only highlights she was not a leader nor the sharpest tool in the shed, and that I will agree with.
The alternative is notice Manson kept his core group such as Good, Fromme, Gillies and Brunner away from high risk. The ones selected to murder, if caught, were expendable. The remainder deemed perhaps not reliable or ready for prime time.
Back in the 50's and 60's my friends and I would have called the Manson women 'Biker Girls' and considered them mentally unbalanced and dangerous. Notice where Gillies gravitated to next post-Manson (sh-h-h ... biker girl).
Peter, Matt, Robert, and anyone else who pointed out where Cappy said those nasty things. Thank you. Somehow I jumped over your replies when I logged back in. The only one I saw was from GW.
Whut
Matt said...
What's interesting to me is that for years the top search term in the blog's stats has been "Charles Manson Jr's suicide". Also, since this post went live two days ago it has had over double the page views as last week's post. For one reason or another people are interested in his story...
---
Thank you for pointing that out Matt. It's not often that we focus a post on one of the kids because they are victims of the circumstances of their birth. In this case I felt that posting some of the documents relating to Charles Jr. might satiate the curiosity that a lot of people have about him.
Rosalie had 4 marriages? She tried hard!
As for Manson Jr, another sad story ...
Thanks for all the information you guys put on this blog.
That post about Abigail Folger was very informative too.
I think he favored Good, Fromme, and Pitman because they came from money. And for all his resentment, Manson was probably a little intimidated by that. Maybe it was on a subconscious level after a lifetime of sucking up to rich and influential people. Krenwinkel and Atkins came from the lower middle class. They were closer to Manson's own background. He probably secretly hated them because they were like him in that regard.
Both RXSTR.COM and Cielodrive.com are stating that Cappy Gillies passed away on July 4 in Oregon. Her facebook page is down.
HRVATSKA!!!
Croatia defeats England ?
Indeed so. Bring on France!!!
There are two kinds of countries in this world. Those that care about soccer and those that have had a man walk on the moon.
https://rxstr.com/2016/02/20/catherine-irene-gillies-profile/
It is reported that to this day Cathy is still upset she was not chosen to go with the killers....
Does anybody believe this nonsense? More likely she spent the last four decades thanking her lucky stars she escaped disaster by a hair....
According to the biography on Cielo.com it sounds like she testified that she wanted to go, although the wording of the bio is a little unclear. It says she "testified" that the killings were copy cats and later that they didn't upset her, but they bio only says she "went on to say" that Charlie had nothing to do with it and "stated" she wanted to go along. It's not 100% clear that this was part of her testimony.
"During the sentencing phase, Gillies testified that the murders were copycat killings committed in an attempt to get Bobby Beausoleil out of jail. She went on to say Charlie had nothing to do with the murders, and stated that she wanted to go with the killers on both nights, but was told that she wasn't needed. Cathy testified that the murders didn't upset her, and she would willingly commit murder to get a "brother" out of jail."
But I don't see her testimony as part of Cielo's files of the sentencing phase posted online. So I'm not sure where this comes from.
Robert C said...
I believe Gillies was far more pro-Charile hardcore and would have easily murdered if ordered by Charlie back then and who knows, maybe long after
Leslie back in '69 was of the opinion that her loyalty to the Family was in question and that she would have been a risky proposition:
MR. PART: Now, when you left with Charlie in the car, was there anybody else who saw you leaving?
MISS VAN HOUTEN: Only Cathy. And she knew. ‘Cause she wanted to go.
Q: Well, how did you know Cathy wanted to go, and why didn’t she go?
LVH: Well, Cathy — Cathy was more or less coming and going and coming and going. She said she was with us, but she was — you know she’d leave every couple weeks for a few days. In other words, her amount of loyalty to the Family wasn’t complete.
So for her to do it would almost be like a risk, like she would freak out and then run away, and who knows what she’d do.
And she was feeling bad ’cause she wanted to go ’cause she wanted to help out.
Who knows ? It's only Leslie's opinion but just about everything that came out of that interview has been corroborated independently by someone else somewhere. Maybe Cathy's subsequent actions were actually her trying to show she was hardcore and trustworthy, knowing that the real pressure was off.
The alternative is notice Manson kept his core group such as Good, Fromme, Gillies and Brunner away from high risk. The ones selected to murder, if caught, were expendable
It might just be more mundane than that. Mary was involved in pre~TLB murder {Hinman}, Sandy was heavily pregnant and both were in jail.
Figuring Tex, Pat, Susan, Linda, Bruce, Clem and Leslie as expendable worked out well for Charlie !
Peter said...
There are two kinds of countries in this world. Those that care about soccer and those that have had a man walk on the moon
Spoken like a true gent..........whose team didn't even make it onto the bus to get them to the airport, much less to Russia, much less to the world cup !
starviego said...
It is reported that to this day Cathy is still upset she was not chosen to go with the killers....
Does anybody believe this nonsense? More likely she spent the last four decades thanking her lucky stars she escaped disaster by a hair....
Perhaps it is just bravado ~ but it would be consistent bravado across 48 years. Van Houten's words are from 1969, Cathy testified in '71 that she wanted to go along and the reason she didn't was because she wasn't needed and in that "Manson ~ the final words" recent documentary, she said that Pat & Leslie stopped her from going even though she had wanted to. She concluded that they were protecting her.
Dianne Lake talks about her being a Buffalo Springfield groupie in a former life {interestingly, I've just finished reading Richie Furay's autobiography} and says she was a free spirit that was fun to be around, back in the day.
Apologies, Orwhut. Grim is correct. That’s where I’ve heard Cappy say that before. I need to go back and re-listen to Nellie.
San Bernardino times March 16, 1971- Linda Deutsch:
Testified during the penalty phase. In response to Kanarek's questions:
"They had plenty of people to do what they had to do, and I didn't need to go."
"You know, I'm willing to kill for a brother. We all are. To get a brother out of jail, I would kill. I would have killed that night."
Blogger GreenWhite said...
Apologies, Orwhut. Grim is correct. That’s where I’ve heard Cappy say that before. I need to go back and re-listen to Nellie.
No problem GW. At least you remembered it. I'd forgotten all of those nasty things.
Good, bad, or in between, I still think Cappy was a fox back in the day.
Orwhut said...
Good, bad, or in between, I still think Cappy was a fox back in the day
In my copy of HS {the 1977 Penguin edition, subtitled "An investigation into motive"}, in the photo section, there's a couple of photos with Cathy in them and even back in '78, one of them {she's pictured with Squeaky, Sandy and Ouisch} seemed to sum up that description in the book of their blankness and sameness as they each stand there with the X on their forehead. I thought in that shot they were all pretty and their clothes looked fantastic. But it's always been something of a creepy shot for me. Great photo though.
Grim,
Maybe that was the "fox caught in the headlights" look.
Sorry, I couldn't help myself. :)
Whut
I find the 'Cappy' discussion, interesting.
I wonder if we would be questioning Cielodrive.com's report of her testimony and suggesting she 'escaped disaster' if she looked like Krenwinkel. I note no women have chimed in.
The quotes I posted, above, are her words, reported by Deutsch who had a seat in the press section. My experience is LD did a very good job reporting what was said, much better than most.
And for those of you who think Foxy Cappy (cue the Hendrix) spent the rest of her days thankful she escaped 50 years in the clink, read the beginning of this:
https://medium.com/news-and-politics/charles-manson-vs-media-whos-the-better-brainwasher-c7d90d77577b
Or read the whole thing. It's not bad.
Grim said: "But it's always been something of a creepy shot for me."
Me too.
Of course, Grim, in a strange irony part of that sameness comes from the fact Manson had them cut of their hair except that braid thing, which meant it kind of grew out the same on all of them.
That and the fact when we all wore blue jeans, army surplus jackets, boots, flannel shirts and T-shirts, parted our hair in the middle and grew it out below our shoulders we...ah....kind of all looked the same.
I've always liked Patty in this picture.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9b/Hostile.JPG
And Leslie in this one.
https://68.media.tumblr.com/503c11aa335b873b95bdcc2a28681b94/tumblr_inline_n5inr6Vcos1rglck1.jpg
Sometimes a badass attitude is all you need.
I don't believe this Mary Lan who looks like she is 22 and appears to have spent most of her time in Austin doing design work writing things that everybody knows. News Flash Charlie knows he's never getting out of jail. She hangs out with Gillies and that's the best she came away with?
And I certainly don't put a lot of faith in anything any of them said on the stand during the penalty phase
Well Peter,
Stick to your guns. That is good lawyering. Denial, even in the face of photographs takes a particularly accomplished attorney. I guess now we will never really know.
So we are left with the only record we have. Sort of like the moon landing, mentioned above.
Everybody loves football
Tour Dee France is heating up. Cobbles in three days but mostly just a slow burn of sprinter's stages until the first mountain rendevue after the rest day monday. Theres a cat three finish tomorrow that ll set off some fireworks.
David. If we all accepted the evidence and took what the participants said at face value, then we would all believe that Helter Skelter was the motive and this site wouldnt exist.
Peter. I agree with you 100%. Arguments (opinions) regarding all the conflicting evidence in this case is what powers this blog.
My point was there is absolutely no evidence she didn't mean exactly what she said on the stand and there is some evidence she continued to believe it long after. There is no evidence she 'saw the light'.
Since we're discussing Cappy, I'm wondering if any MK-ultra theorists on here are willing to explain her role in the schematic? I was definitely a mark for everything conspiracy in the good old "anonymous" days of the Internet so don't feel shy. Not that anyone who comments on this blog seems all that shy to me. Kinda the opposite lol.
So she says she was willing and eager to go out for Charlie and murder knowing that everyone was caught and faced the death penalty, but when she had the opportunity to stand up for Charlie at the risk of a few days in jail, she balked. It's easy to testify during the penalty phase or to say something in an interview when it's no skin off her back and everyone else is up there telling the man that there is no wrong and the Charlie is the only love and that you would gladly kill for Charlie because there is no downside. She makes that claim in the same spirit as those that claim they were invited to a party at Cielo Drive, but couldn't make it.
Please give it a rest, Peter. You're starting to fragment. You stated your opinion earlier and are now simply repeating it in argument. I think we all already know how you feel about it. I enjoyed our exchange earlier.
Cathy Gillies played a crucial role in the HS philosophy. She brought the gift of Myers Ranch--the refuge--to Charlie when she joined up in late '68, shortly after they left the property of the Fountain of the World.
"Venta ... knew of a hidden North American valley in which his Elect could hide during the bloodshed until the ordained day came for them to exit their secret refuge en masse..."
To Charlie, it must have seemed like the fulfillment of prophesy.
Could there have been a HS without the Barker hideout?
There are no words
It was beyond words
I lifted up the towel and with the towel wrote PIG on the door
Peter said...
If we all accepted the evidence and took what the participants said at face value, then we would all believe that Helter Skelter was the motive and this site wouldnt exist
Actually, that doesn't make.
HS was never posited as the motive, but one of 3. And even back then, people didn't take whatever was said at face value.
but when she had the opportunity to stand up for Charlie at the risk of a few days in jail, she balked
The example you gave wasn't a great one though because what she says can easily be looked upon as being just as contemptuous as Share, Good and Ross. That's a serious put~down, "I have nothing to say to you !" It's the Judge that's caught it wrongly.
Dan S said...
Everybody loves football
Especially in Croatia !
I wonder if any of the "family" sidewalk girls keep contact from time to time. If Cappy's family will get any condolences from any of them or a visit if there is a viewing. I would think that with the unusual past that they share they might reminisce or have some contact from time to time. Does anyone know if she was in contact with any of the family besides Charlie?
Didnt they all die in 68 or 69? Ceased to exist.......
I think one of the girls said it was due to Cappy always leaving and coming back, that it was believed she was not a "full" member of the family.
Was it in Texas?
Was it in Texas
What about Paul's sibling Daniel that was born to Elisabeth and jay in 1993? Anyone know if paul or daniel are still alive?
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