Academic study of crimes goes by the wayside when you visit the locations where events actually occurred. The physical layouts of crime scenes can often give the interested observer valuable insights into how those crimes went down, often even providing glimpses into the minds of the perpetrators. The walk that the killers took to the Roman Polanski residence on the night of August 8-9, 1969 is a good example of this.
After driving from Spahn's Movie Ranch to Cielo Drive that night the car containing Charles "Tex" Watson, Susan Atkins, Patricia Krenwinkel, and Linda Kasabian initially drove up the spur roadway up to the cul-de-sac ending at the gate of 10050. There, Watson got out of of car and shimmied up the utility pole supporting the phone lines into the property and cut those lines before backing the car back down to Cielo Drive proper and parking on the downhill side of the turnoff. Then the group walked back up the gate and around it to enter the property and kill everybody there except caretaker William Garretson.
I've been to Cielo Drive on several occasions, but I've always driven up to the top. Although I was unable to attend this year's MF Blog Tour I suggested to Matt that a reprise of the walk up the hill to the gate at the former 10050 address might make for an interesting post.
The walk video shows how narrow the roadway leading up to Cielo really is. (The last time I visited the gate, on the 2015 MF Blog Tour, I had to back my own vehicle down the hill as there was no room at the top to turn around.) It also shows how dark and isolated the area is still today, even though there are now more lit-up residences on the street and there was a fuller moon on the Tour walk than on the night of the murders. It is dark and lonely, and occasional glimpses of the lights shining down in Los Angeles only serve to accentuate the remoteness and isolation. The repetitive call of a bird emphasizes the indifference of nature to the madness of man.
What was going through the minds of the Tate assailants on the night of their visit as they made that same walk up the hill? Pumped up on adrenaline and (for some) speed, the heat of the night, the paranoia and awareness of violence brought on by the knowledge of the previous weeks' incidents involving the murder of Gary Hinman and the presumed murder of Bernard Crowe, the pandemonium and pressure of getting ready to flee the city and go to the desert -- not to mention the uncertainty of not knowing what they would have to do once they go onto the property -- it must have been an intense experience indeed.
The Tour walk up Cielo could only hint at that experience.
The Tate killers parked at the bottom of the Cielo Drive side cul-de-sac at the location of the arrow at the upper left then walked up the narrow roadway to the gate of the property of their unsuspecting victims, indicated by the arrow on the right.
The moon phases on the night of the Tour walk and the night of the murders.
To views of the current gate on the way up:
The base of Cielo looking up. The car was parked to the left of where I'm (Matt) standing to take the photo:
This is the base of Cielo Dr. Beind the person walking, on the other side of the bush is where the car was parked. The perspective shows how narrow Cielo is:
59 comments:
What was going through the minds of the Tate assailants on the night of their visit as they made that same walk up the hill?
https://media.tenor.com/images/a4ace8088e197c934c8506244a2106cb/tenor.gif
Not sure what is being censored. But hey, that is a private road but the TLB TOUR is above the laws of man anyway
Col,
Isn't that you in these pictures?
http://www.mansonblog.com/2013/05/cielo-drive.html
On that same private road?
The sad part about all this back and forth is best summed up by AstroCreep:
"Where I come from, we help one another as much as humanly possible to ensure the success of the group- to further the agenda. To impart wisdom. To lead and to mentor. Because there isn’t time to waste years for someone to learn the hard lessons."
That is the way it should be but apparently, it is not.
I have to ask what on earth is worth all this back and forth. Frankly, by either of you.
And this, below, is more fun than reading this back and forth anyway.
https://twitter.com/TheDailyShow/status/988826609330282497
Laugh more bark less.
I was not aware before of such a long walk. I missed that trivia because I thought they parked much closer to the gate. They were all smokers but I guess the resiliency of youth was on their side.
I think next year for the big 50 tour it should be a full on re-enactment like the Civil War guys do at Gettysburg.
Hey David- I’m not angry or bothered at all by the Col’s words. Just simply stating that the Col has made bold claims (mainly about Bugliosi) and has never backed up with facts. Like I said, I don’t have years to comb thru old posts- whether I would like to or not, I just don’t have the time. I respect everyone here for the incredible amount of time they’ve put in- time that I don’t have to devote to it.
I also subscribe to HS because it’s fact. There is far too much supporting evidence to deny that it’s likely the main “collective” motive. That’s my untrained non Manson blogosphere inter webs non-scholarly opinion.
I’m in my 40’s, have dealt with my previous spouse’s cancer, spent 20 years in army special operations, had more friends and teammates killed in combat and lived thru more death than everyone here combined. My whole life has been surrounded by death and even now, had many more former mates commit suicide. I don’t use any of that as an excuse to be nasty to anyone.
I appreciate the opportunity to make comments here because maybe my perspective is different than someone else’s perspective. I don’t think I’ve ever been rude to anyone and if I have been- my bad! No malice intended.
Sounds like a wonderful idea Peter as long as your playing the part of one of the victims Freakin creep
AstroCreep- I have not backed up my BUG stuff with facts? NO you haven't read enough. What have I not backed up? That he was a mentally ill (wife's own words) liar who beat women and stalked milkmen as well as made up a motive and committed perjury in a capital case? AC, all of the above has been proven time and again. FACT
David- the photos you have linked to are on Bella Drive, a non private road open to the public. FACT
Why people insist on spewing GARBAGE NON FACTS will always confound me
Fake news
Col- “made up a motive” is the part in which I’m seeking clarification- all the rest you’ve stated I’ve found evidence and literature to support.
Patty- Clarity is your friend. What are you decrying as fake/misunderstanding this week?
AC- The murders were not an attempt to start a race war known as Helter Skelter. The head prosecutor Aaron Stovitz before he was replaced told BUG that he was going out on a limb trying to stitch together tons of drug speak into a motive. All scholars of the case do not believe Manson coordinated the murders to start a race war. Indeed, if that WERE true then all of them would be mentally ill and not responsible for their actions.
If you play close attention to the novel Helter Skelter you will see BUG is extra senistive to motive and spends several pages trying to convince the reader there is one
For someone who loathes this blog as much as you do colonel you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time here
Patty don't waste your time. This is the same ColAsshole who made a blog post about Dianne Lake's vagina
http://tatelabianca.blogspot.com/2011/06/snake-lake-talks-about-arousal-her.html
And makes it his life's work to make fun of Debra Tate's appearance. He's not worth your time. Move on.
ColScott said...
AC- The murders were not an attempt to start a race war known as Helter Skelter
Maybe. Maybe not. As has been pointed out a number of times, the 'race war' aspect of HS is but one element of it. The "kicking off the race war aspect" is merely the prelude to a much larger act. And not at all a ridiculous a notion in this world, as Al Queda and ISIS have shown us repeatedly, over the last 20 or so years.
The head prosecutor Aaron Stovitz before he was replaced told BUG that he was going out on a limb trying to stitch together tons of drug speak into a motive
This is true. But proves what ? That Stovitz didn't agree with Bugliosi. Yet, long before Stovitz was kicked off the case, whose angle were they proceeding with in trial ? Stovitz was the lead prosecutor. Bugliosi was the junior. The subordinate. Stovitz had the authority to call the shots. Yet, many years later, he reflected thoughtfully "early on, I told Vince that if he used the argument he finally did, it would be a perfect set up for them to plead insanity. I told him that you didn't have to have a motive for people to go berserk. But as far as I was concerned, the motive was to try to cover up the killing of musician Gary Hinman in Topanga Canyon before the Tate murders.We had this big disagreement. But obviously, he was right to go with what he did."
This is coming from the guy that called the shots. He could have said 'dump this HS shit !' Stovitz was wrong on all counts. Be careful whom you lean on for your evidence.
You claim that Bugliosi had to go get Charlie but you overlook simple stuff that no one who dares call themselves a scholar should, such as that well over a month before Bugliosi was even on the case, Charlie was down as a suspect and it kept on coming from varying directions that he was responsible for the murderers going out to kill. Interestingly, evidence of Charlie's involvement and HS kept on coming up, again and again, whereas, until the penalty phase in 1971, not a bean about a copycat set of murders. Even with Stovitz giving the Family a heads up in the June 25th 1970 edition of Rolling Stone on the subject of the copycat. An edition incidentally, where Charlie speaks of HS, even if he doesn't use those two words.
All scholars of the case do not believe Manson coordinated the murders to start a race war
So what ? That actually doesn't prove a thing about the murders themselves. All it proves is that some people don't believe that HS could have been a motive for murder. It makes for some interesting debates but putting "Scholar" before your doubts and opinions does not make those opinions definitive, even if it massages your doubts.
Indeed, if that WERE true then all of them would be mentally ill and not responsible for their actions
Are all suicide bombers mentally ill ? Was John Lennon mentally ill to think he was Jesus ? Was Leslie mentally ill for believing in HS or just a damned good actress or a bloody liar ?
Methinks there's a huge universe of difference between mental illness and straightforward drug assisted deception and/or delusion.
Me also thinks that you have a lot to understand about the variations that exist in the minds of people.
ColScott said...
I have not backed up my BUG stuff with facts? NO you haven't read enough. What have I not backed up? That he was a mentally ill (wife's own words) liar who beat women and stalked milkmen as well as made up a motive and committed perjury in a capital case? AC, all of the above has been proven time and again. FACT
I resist the temptation to replace your A with a U.
That someone's wife thinks they're mentally ill might actually be telling you more about the wife than the subject.
You have never proven Bugliosi lied in a capital case. Because you can't. You can state it several times a year as you have a tendency to do, but I have demonstrated to you on more than one occasion that the ground upon which you stand is solid as quicksand. And I did use facts. Ironically, some from your own site. Continually repeating something until it becomes true only happens in "My Little Pony" and dodgy churches. Although it appears to have worked at Gresham and Spahn.....
And what has stalking a milkman that he thought was having a fling ting with his wife or that he beat up his mistress some years after the TLB case got to do with the workings of Charles Manson's mind ?
I secretly think that you're actually an alternative comedian ! You remind me of something Dick Emery used to say ~ "Ooh you are awful....but I like you !"
But as for proof, like I said to you last year, you got nothing.
Col.,
I don't know I wasn't there but the 9th photo down appears to be the gate at Cielo. And I think that is you, there. But I guess I was wrong. I apologize.
You're not wrong David.
I'll be Sharon. You'd make a good Clem.
Patty- read better- do not loathe the blog I loathe people who celebrate murderers like thyself
Suze- Ummm did you actually watch Snake's video in which she talked about her VAG? Or did you just flap your mouth for fun? And Debra is a reprehensible vile homophobic lying piece of human garbage who also looks like my dingleberries. Her appearance only matters because she is human garbage and because, as per OUI Magazine, her appearance once mattered to her. Hate inside reflect outside.
Grimmy - TL/DR and don't speak "Stupid"
David- that is me. That does seem to be Cielo. You are not wrong I am. Though I hesitate to point out I was not the person who took the Street number "6" off the bricks and had to make a 24 point turn with the van to get out of there.
Patty- This can't be wrong because it feels so right- YOU LIGHT UP MY LIFE
Peter- The Sharon role ends in blood and tears.Clem gets to live long, and give concerts and selfies to murder fans. Much better role
Ok ... is there an exciting Part III with the Tour 2018 or is this all heading toward a shoot out at the MansonBlog Corral ?
Robert C
Pending Posts
Visit with Tobyann Hendrickson including discussion as to where the sixties really ended
Interview with the former headmaster of Westlake School discussing whether or not cocktail ice could really be heard across the canyons the night of the murders
DNA Testing with Vince BUGliosi Jr to see if his father really was the mailman
$5 footlong happy hour at the MUNCH BOX in Chatsworth
Tour of the Elton John Estate in Bel Air with Alisa Statman- when she realized you could no longer see Cielo from there she threw everyone out of the vehicle- while still moving
Crashing the Snake Lake Book Tour at Box Canyon Books and meeting the grandchildren of Krishna Venta, this time wearing footwear.
Tour of the Farmer John processing plant in Vernon to pay final respects to Babs "I matter" Hoyt
Desert at the Manson Blogger Pinkberry
Wrapped up by the revelation that one of the newbies on the tour was Sandra Good in disguise, utilizing the Bloggers as a diversion to divert the Manson corpse to her residence for taxidermy and veneration, Eva Peron style
Good times!
ColScott said...
I loathe people who celebrate murderers
You were quite the Bobby Beausoleil fanboi from 2005 up until around 2013. There's tons of stuff attesting to this on your site like offering letters of support and jobs should he be paroled.
And you know what ? I thought it was pretty gutsy of you, even down to admitting that he'd lied to you for years.
Continually harping on about the night members of the blog took photos with Steve Grogan leaves you in a somewhat bizarre light and your manner on this particular subject comes over as bitterness masquerading as fair minded.
The Manson blogging community is my personal soap opera. Who needs Days Of Our Lives, WWE, or Internet Blood Sports when you've got online Mansonistas??
Like sands through the hourglass...
Hey, I for one thought ColScott's last post was pretty funny :-)
How many houses did you pass on the way up the street and are any of them the same ones that were there in 69?
Good grief...back to the post.
George, thanks for suggesting the walk and writing this post. One of the things that seemed so poignant was, as you mentioned, the lack of lights and quietness.
I was walking behind the others and couldn't help but get angry that at any time one of those killers could have turned around or changed history and many lives by refusing to go up the drive.
At the top, I peered through the gate and saw the outline of the drive lit up, still curved as it was in 69. It felt like I was looking at old pictures.It was confusing and very sad and I could almost hear Linda yelling "Make it stop!" Aside from the horror going on in the house, I wondered what was going through Linda's mind running down that road alone.
The last pic, taken by one of the others of Matt at the bottom of the Cielo, scares the bejeezus outta me! Glad I wasn't looking that direction.
The experience was terrifying and enlightening.
Maybe....just maybe this could end.
Grave rubbings. Oddly my grandmother did that in 1967 in Saline, Michigan and I was dragged along. When we staged our 'joke' the art store found nothing 'odd' about our goal and, in fact, led us to the supplies. I believe the young woman said 'what's odd about that?'. Of course they didn't do that last year.
When the Col. first posted his comment about the 'Clem' event I said to those around "I never would have done that [been in that pic] and would have offered him $ to answer questions for me". More than one person there said 'no you would not'. You see, Col, we weren't there. We can say what we would have done but would we (a theme in this case by the way)? We can claim we would demand answers and castigate him for using a wrench 48 years ago but would we?
And then there is that old post. Apparently, I wasn't 'wrong'. You did stand on that private drive.
And yet you hurled our trespass at us as if we had done something wrong.
In fact, we did, you did. But it wasn't going to Cielo that night. It was going to Cielo at all, day or night and walking that walk up that drive like you did.
Everyone who has made that walk has 'invaded' the privacy of those who perished there. By 'invaded' I mean as I walked up that drive I had a profound sense of what was taken away that night 50 years ago. It is, in fact, hard to explain.
There was no a group photo shot at the bottom or the gate and no discussion of 'this and that' about where they climbed the embankment or where the telephone pole was in 1969 or who lived where (there are five or so houses that were not there in 1969). It was done in silence. I (we) were alone with our own thoughts...and mine will forever remember that bird.
Perhaps, Col, instead of finding fault with our invasion of their 'legal' privacy on their private road, where you too did the same thing five years ago, you could simply stop this.
Ok, let me try it this way: please stop this.
Pax vobiscum.
Mr. Humphrat,
You know, I don't know.
On the way down a dog barked at me from one, that I remember. I think say, 5. And someone told me only one ??? dates to 1969.
"off·line"
COMPUTING
adjective
adjective: offline; adjective: off-line
1.
not controlled by or directly connected to a computer or external network.
adverb
adverb: offline; adverb: off-line
1.
while not directly controlled by or connected to a computer or external network.
with a delay between the production of data and its processing.
Me thinketh that a significant portion of the more recent posts would be more appropriately shared "off-line" with the limited audience to which many pertain.
As a not so silent observer, I humbly suggest, for all involved, that it would be a good idea to revisit the purpose of this particular blog. If it's to air hurt feelings and flex fact prowess, than so be it. But, for those who know little and are interested in learning more, might I suggest you check your "baggage" before hitting the "Publish" button?
Maybe its just me, but reading, "Comment deleted" and...
"This comment has been removed by a blog administrator" has a way of discrediting a lot of hours logged, knowledge acquired and respect earned, on a topic that is at least worthy of sincerity and consistent, meaningful perspective.
Otherwise, why bother?
Calls, the deletions you see are only for the over the top comments. Racism, mysoginy, f-bombs, etc. trust me, you aren’t missing anything...
Good point Grim i remember when the Col was a BobbyB Bum Boy. Who is the Col anyway? I never really read his blog cause he always came off as being an angry little man. Is he a movie producer or something?
Now back to our regularly scheduled programming...
Matt --- you're up too late .... or too early .... ;-)
He's a disbarred lawyer from Torrance, California. He's a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.The mind plays tricks on you. You play tricks back! It's like you're unraveling a big cable-knit sweater that someone keeps knitting and knitting and knitting and knitting and knitting and knitting and knitting...
I still can't beleve the Col was a producer of Natural Born Killers.I've watched it dozens of times...for that film...my hat will always be off to him...😈
"Now back to our regularly scheduled programming..."
LOL! Truth!
Robert C said...
Matt --- you're up too late .... or too early .... ;-)
Robert, I'm an early riser. Been that way my whole life. It is a blessing and a curse.
Hump, yes there is a new house that I noticed towards the bottom of the hill. It's large and hangs over the edge a lot and is supported by pilings and buttresses. I didn't take a pic given the darkness.
If I calculate the date correctly, the Attorney General will file its response to the Superior Court judge's order that it provide evidence that Van Houten is an unreasonable risk for parole tomorrow.
thanks Matt and David. From the old photos I saw two houses but that was probably showing just toward the top of the street. Thanks for showing how long of a walk it is, and dark and remote.
It's a canyon road off a canyon road. For LA, it's as dark and remote as you can get.
May 4th Peter
I hope you will post the response when it comes.
Sure, no problem. Here is their response from the last time. http://cielodrive.com/ag-answer-lvh-11-22-16.pdf
Thanks. So it's basically an abuse of discretion standard. Based on the facts presented in the response the Governor's decision is certainly easonable enough to survive, but it seems so arbitrary that the Governor can basically keep denying her parole over and over again. On the one hand they say the test is whether she is at present a danger, but on the other, it allows the governor to rely on facts of the case from 50 years ago to make that detemination. At what point does it become unreasonable to rely on those facts.
WOW I haven't had a chance to catch up on the Mansonblog for a while and to my surprise NOT I see Cols morphed into a troll..a hypocrite troll at that..Is it just me or is he sounding a tad Trump like?..a wee bit Cray Cray. 😉
A couple of days ago, I read a comment by Candy and Nuts mentioning the movie, Natural Born Killers. This prompted me to ask about the current health status of Caril Ann Fugate, who went on a murder spree in 1957-58 with the other Charlie, Charles Starkweather. I saw no need to explain this connection to this astute group of true crime buffs.
Now, there's mystery. My comment has disappeared, come back, and now it's gone again. What's happening here?
Orwhut, I saw your comment and I also see that it’s gone now. It’s possible that one of us accidentally deleted it when we were deleting SAG. If so, we apologize.
Matt,
No need to apologize, I thought it might have been an accidental deletion and was going to ignore it. When it came back and then disappeared again, I thought I should bring it up. (-:
Whut
orwhut- your query regarding Ms Fugate is on the earlier bog tour post- not this one.
Brownrice,
THANK YOU!!! Things were seeming very strange.
Matt,
Now, I apologize for my confusion.
Whut
and this snake wearing a vest....
Calls It As I Sees It said...
Me thinketh that a significant portion of the more recent posts would be more appropriately shared "off-line" with the limited audience to which many pertain.
As a not so silent observer, I humbly suggest, for all involved, that it would be a good idea to revisit the purpose of this particular blog. If it's to air hurt feelings and flex fact prowess, than so be it
While I can understand where you're coming from, I would add that sometimes, things that come across as hurt feelings and the rest, actually do sometimes serve a useful function. They can be jumping off points for matters that do become quite important discussion points. It's inevitable that a public forum will throw up things between contributors that not everyone will get initially.
ColScott said...
Why people insist on spewing GARBAGE NON FACTS will always confound me
I think Steve Grogan might feel that way if he were to see that even in 2017 it was being paraded as fact that he cut a man's head off.
Clarity is your friend
And your enemy.
If you play close attention to the novel Helter Skelter you will see BUG is extra sensitive to motive
Naturally. The only thing that makes this case remotely interesting is the motive. Otherwise, it's just a run of the mill murder and all the perps get caught, tried, convicted and jailed. Hardly worth a 600+ page book.
TL/DR
Perhaps the internet's most pathetic {in all the dictionary definitions of the word} rejoinder is that one. Either way one looks at it. If you actually did read it and are trying to pretend to everyone that you don't care, that's dripping with 'miserable'. And if you really didn't read it and are so keen to tell the writer that you didn't, that's beyond miserable. Especially when every post written, even if addressed to a particular individual, is actually written for the perusal and benefit of all.
Besides which, we all know you hang on every word that you don't agree with because that's the kind of person we are.
I hesitate to point out I was not the person who took the Street number "6" off the bricks and had to make a 24 point turn with the van to get out of there
The defence rests.
I've been up to the gate three times, I always back down to Oman's place to make the seven point turnaround to go back down. It is narrow as hell once you turn up the Cielo private road. Walking up it at night I'm sure is pretty surrea.
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