Thinking of the way she escaped from the wilderness of Barker, the way she protected her family from the Family by hightailing it off to Hawaii {even though she used to argue with her Dad and was a runaway} and the way she came back to testify, even though she knew first hand what her "friends" were capable of with their philosophy of "snitches, every snitch, gets taken care of....gets righteously taken care of, righteously...."{not to mention some of the stuff that came out in open court for all the world to be made aware of and remember to the present day}, I'd have to say that Babs was pretty resilient back in the day. While her Shorty testimony will always be suspect and have ???s hanging over it and her reasoning for turning up at parole hearings for anyone other than Charlie and Tex leaves a bad taste, she was gutsy. I always found it quite fascinating that Sandy thought she was "a pretty girl" and Squeaky said that they saw in her a beautiful woman that had been taught to be clumsy by society.
There’s a show on the History Channel right now where they are discussing the mysterious death of Zero. That has always interested me. I think it was a murder. Also RIP Barbara.
I think Barbara Hoyt was genuinely horrified over what her friends did. She was with them just a short time, but whatever happened in that time frame was enough to keep her haunted for life. A lot of people over the years have claimed she was lying about hearing someone scream. I don't. I think Manson & friends caused a lot of people to scream! Rest in peace, Barbara!
My first dealings with Barbara were on the Ronson board. She was using the name Pickles and was very kind to me. At that point, she was hanging around Bill Nelson. They had a falling out- according to him- over his Costco card. (whatever, hard to say what the truth is in the matter). Before he was outted as a perv (upon which we had a falling out when I confronted him on it and he tried to lie is way out of it), we had spent a lot of time talking on the phone where he had many unkind things to say about her weight. I am not going to repeat them here.
She did what she had to do- do I agree with it? Maybe, maybe not but I'm not Judge Judy and its not my show.
your honesty and lack of souvenir hunting has been sorely missed
Clamoring huh? I would normally do a full post to mark her passing but since Patty has caused so much turmoil I will just do bullet points here--
1- It did not take anyone more than 5 minutes to see what an asshole Nelson was. Sometimes if you were wicked smart like Statman it took 3- if you were an overly kind soul like Doris Tate it took 6. But no one with an ounce of brains listened to Nelson save for the fact that he had shit real researchers wanted. I was glad to pay for them. The one time I spoke to him I felt sick.
Yet for almost a year Hoyt worked with him, selling tickets to a tour that would be a REUNION (can you fucking believe that?) tour of Death Valley. Under the pseudonym DESERT SPEAKS Babs did interview tapes (also sold) for Nellie and in general spread her story for all to see. Fuck her.
My favorite tidbit of this trip was Sandy Good reporting the trip as illegal and Nellie getting into all sorts of trouble. George- I seem to recall she came along too under a fake name...or did I dream it?
2- This trip led to the Col becoming obsessed with the Honolulu caper...and suffice it to say the reason it was never prosecuted is because it never happened. Even if the burger was laced with LSD it was never intended to kill her. Literally no one ever died in history from an LSD overdose. Babs wanted to #metoo before it was fashionable. To be clear, this drama and desire to be included became an essential part of her useless life.
3- This led to further investigation and basically Barbara Hoyt was a drama queen desperate for the attention she never had growing up. Her dramatic "escape" from Barker for those who have researched it ends with Charlie giving her money to get away. The rest is nonsense.
4- The most fucked up thing this woman did was continue to testify in the Shorty Shea hearings giving provably false testimony so that she could feel valued in her later years. "Ohhh I was art of something big and did good." Actually even by her own story she escaped the ranch and knew Susan had killed Sharon and told NO ONE.
5- Debra her dear friend cannot spell her fucking name right.
6- Nelson, who died of diabetes complications from being a fat piece of shit talking about her weight is rich. Hoyt sucked because she was a liar.
How about when Nellie was selling $200 dinner invites to eat with him and a few others including Dianne Lake and her husband? I have the video of that somewhere in my collection. He gave me a copy.
He was a creepy piece of dung- I really never ever ever want to hear about the side effects of certain medication. Also, this was around the time Ronson was pretending to be Ruth Ann. It was nasty.
The whole Shorty thing puzzled me for years and still does. If she was gonna lie why not get the time right with the rest of everyone?
only issue Ive always had is making fun of Babs weight...she really never seemed like some schister oyt for the bucks or noteriety As far as Col Scott...I recently learned he was one of the producers of NBK my second fav film after the Exorcist...third would be Manson....so since I ch e rish nbk watched it at leasr 100 times...whatever Don Murphy on hoyt but Id love your autograph on an nbk dvd just saying
I am in possession of many of the posts from the Ronson board. In those days (2001) there no logins or authentication, so impersonation was rampant and heckling common.
I don’t recall how it was determined that Clark Ronson, the message board founder, was pretending to be Ruth Ann or how his real identity was discovered. There was Lost Star who claimed to be Country Sue and Karen who claimed to be Steven Parent’s girlfriend. If Cats says so, then the poster known as Freckles was Barbara Hoyt. Here is a sample or two. It might be too much to post them all as comments and the without the replies and questions from other people there is no context.
Squeeky didn't just take care of George she loved him with all her heart several of the girls hed sex with old George he was a nasty dirty old man I beleave Squeeky's love for him was long term and genuine.
you know its a funny thing you should say that the first thing that Sadie did when I met her was squat down down in front of me and cut one at first I was shocked but then I thought it was funny.
Bill does not understand why you all give him all this negative attention as he himself says "he is not the story". it's like if everybody attacked your web server what would be the point. Now I very well realize that the pro manson people would stop at nothing including murder to keep witnesses quiet they have done that. so Iam figuring that is where much of the attacks are generated. as I said in another note this whole thing was so so evil thanks Freckles
Pref- WHY do you have the comments to the Ronson board?
Karen McCoy Montecillo was a friend of Steven Parent, went to prom with him. COL made a bet of $500 that she was not his girlfriend. She acknowledged that she was a girl who was a friend but he was gay so since it was good cause, like a marching band I think, I gave half the money to the charity. She died a while ago because she was big as a house too.
Candy- sure np
CATS- IIRC Nellie was planning to make those dinners regular events. I know he takes years but the next Max Frost post should be the road trip that he went on with Nellie to the Zodiac sights. Classic.
I still remember the post headline "Clark is Ruth Ann- and Many Others." Turned out whoever it was was a Neve Campbell stalker who wanted everyone to think he had good intentions but was just a troll. Everyone moved on to the GoRightly Message board then Heaven's yahoo group.
Best thing about the Ronson board was that was where George/Sandy promulgated (via Atwa) Nellie's plea to sexual conduct with an 11 year old.
Now I am going to tell a story so don't freek out this time!!<BR>It's about a ranch hand at Spahn's oh oh I can hear them getting rebbed up. His name was Larry Craven he was a little guy and was somewhat retarded. He also thought the world of Jaun Flynn. He admired him and wanted very much to be jusst like him in every way. Jaun was a tall and strong young man with lots of muscles It was nothing for Larry to put on several shirts even in 90 degrees heat go to Jaun and say "see partner Ive got lots of muscles just like you." Larry always called Jaun "partner". One time there was a little fire in one the trailors and Larry ran to the phone and called the fire dept. and excitedly yelled into the phone " Fire-dept we got a fire up here !!" and they asked "where? " and he answered "in the trailor!!" Click! he hung up the phone the fire dept never made it and the trailor burned to the ground. Yes Larry could function at menial tasks but he was definately retarded. Larry had another problem he was incontinent and frequently wet his pants. One hot day Jaun decided to clean out a trailor in the back of ranch he scrubed and scrubed all day so Larry comes over and admires the remarkable job Jaun did making it a perfect little home You wouldn't notice that it wasn't quite level but that was only a miner problem anyway Larry says to Jaun "gee partner this is beautiful can I bunk with you?" and Jaun says " No partner you would wet the bed". "no I wont says larry I'll pee in this coffee can" So he picked up this old coffee can and procedes to show Jaun how well he can pee in it. He was so proud of himself well guess what? That darned old can had holes in the bottom of and the pee went throught it and down the floor that was slightly down hill. Jaun was pretty mad.
Charley led the younger girls and sone of the men to Golder wash the day after Shorty was murdered. They arrived at the foot of Golder wash at night and started up the 9 mile canyon in the morning. 2 todlers were with them Pooh bear and Dennis De Carlo Danny's little son. His mother had some Indian in her so Charley said that Dennis would be Pooh Bear's slave. One the girls who was a girl friend of Danny's wanted to make sure that Danny didn't find that one out. Anyway it was a long uphill hot trip. At about 1/2 way up there was a little spring and Danny got a drink from it and he immeadately spit the water out Cussing that the water was puetred really bad Well Danny and Tex opened up the well and there was a dead batt in the water after taking the whole day to get up to Barkers Tex drove the power wagon that was up there back down to the falls of Golder to get Charley {you couldn't get a car up the first mile of the canyon it was not passible}. Charley didn't walk up the canyon he said that his ribs hurt from being hit by the police during the raid on the ranch about 2 weeks before and was driven up by Tex. It was a week before any of the other members of the family arrived and the main diet staple was figs and pomagranits that grew at Meyers ranch There was a spring pool at both Barkers and Meyers. The girls sunbathed and entertained each other by reading to each other stories from old west magazines that were found in the bus parked at Barkers. Charley was really mean during this time and the girls were afraid of him. After a week Sadie and others arrived and thats when meyers ranch was broken into. And then there were a few more creature comforts Jaun came up with Sadie. There are lots of events that happened during this time that would make history later.
the at the moment motive for killing white people was to show "blackie" how to do it he wanted the black people to be blamed for the murders. He picked the Tate house because of his anger towards Terry Melcher whom he beleaved would help put out his music. If Charley didn't have a grudge against Mr. Melcher then he would have gone to pick a house at random like he did the second night. Thanks Freckles
The killers drove around looking for someone to kill Charley was going to shoot a driver in a car next to him but the light changed and he drove away to quickly fortunately for him He then stoped at a house and looked in their windows and seeing pictures decided against doing that house Charley said that children may have to be killed at some point but diddn't want to then he tried to go into a church and was going to crucify the minister but being late the church was locked and the minister was not there then after all these foiled attempts did Manson get deliberate about his directions and headed for Howard True's house and commence to kill the Labianca's next door. thanks Freckles
I have a copy of helter skelter mine is autographed but I don't need it to talk about the case
Lol yes Freckles not Pickles. Lol. And I remember Lost Star but I had questions to whether or not it was Country Sue. I think I asked her a question about Bobby or someone who was long gone before Bartell came along. Her answer did not fit.
No he dosn't deserve this wrath there is much more anger towards Bill up here then against Charley there is certainly much more written about Bill then any of the murder victums about Charley or the family members or the story. All you guys do is bemoan Bill. Isn't there anything that would be of more interest? I'll be off the computrer for about an hour but I am willing to discuss the actual events if you want but I wont give in to all this Bill bashing
Like I said in an earlier note I will not focus on anti Bill garbage obviously it will not change any opinions here. I have never seen him attack anybody only answer attacks directed at him. if you are interested in talking about the story then ok that I will do thanks Freckles
If your questions just keep getting harder why don't you just go and ask Bill? He is a grown man go to his web site and E-mail a quiestion he will answer if you act like a civil human being like skipping the threats and the nasty name calling. meanwhile is any one interested in talking about the case?
As I have said Iam not interested in Bill bashing if you have a problem then go to him and work it out. Isn't there any one here who actually wants to talk about the case or does any one know of amessage board that does? thanks Freckles
He dosn't usually read these boards but I asked him to yesterday he dosn't think much of them because so many people here are so opressive but I wanted to check this out for myself.
any way as I said Barbara and Dianne split up going to different areas of the ranch I stayed with Barbara as she went through the ranch house She showed us the little bedroom where she and Sherry slept the night before escaped from the family the old beds were still in there well the frames and springs were. Though they wern't in the same place in the room She showed the old bathroom where Charley was hiding. The cabinet is gone. She moved over to a certain spot in the kitchen and talked about when she over heard Sadie telling Ruth about the murders {this is when she first knew about the murders} and What Sadie said Tex had done to Abigle Foldger She over heard this at meyers ranch left there and came over to Barkers and was standing at this spot and Tex was standing right there. and as she was thinging about what Tex had done He looked at her and said Gee your face is all colors of the desert! She said she realized right there that she couldn't let them know that she knew and at that point the knowledge left her like amnesia not to return till a monthe later in the safty of sleeping in her grandmothers bed but thats anouther story. thenabout 6 of us ladies made our selves deli- lunches can you beleave it some of the people brought a whole truck load of food an drinks and ice and plates we had every thing our hearts could desire And as I said several of us ladies ate lunch in the Barker ranch kitchen table jokingly talking about leaving the mess for 'blue'. Well we did clean it up and afterwards Barbara gave an hour long talk about her expirences with the family during parts of which she cried and then answered questions until there wern't any more. Most of the people had their tape recorders on her. When all was over Barb said she felt great about this exprence stating she didn't feel like a surviver any more but also now feels like an over-commer. And that this trip had shrunk the monster for her. Funny during this day other groups came up to the ranch to. At one point a whole group of japaneese tourists came through as well and none of them knew that day that they had visited the ranch with 2 ex-members there Thanks
If you stood at the front door of George Spahn's ranch house walked down the steps and turned to your left and walked past the board walk to the back of the ranch (this is not the to be mistaken for the back house which is behind George's house and about 1/2 mile down the road) you would come to a group of little old trailers and the end one over looking the creek-bed below is where I was sleeping the night that Shorty was murdered. I had just laid my head down when I was jolted back up by a blood curdling scream. Then there was silence and then the screams started again and again and on and on they seemed to last forever I remember looking out the little window and remembered how light it was from the full moon there were some leaves pressed on the window that I can remember every detail of them. Then I remember being on the floor of the trailer croutched in a fetal position. Iam not sure but I think that I woke there the next morning. When I woke early the next morning I went to the board-walk and went into the cafe and asked Gypsy if she had heard Shorty scream last night and she said very sternly to me that Shorty had gone to San Francisco. I had excepted her explanation and the memory of the scream went totally out of my mind. Later Danny De Carlo and I were taling behind the ranch when Charley came and addressed Danny. Charley asked Danny if lye or lime would get rid of a body and Danny told him that lime would preserve a body and lye would get rid of it. Then Charley told Danny that Shorty had committed suicide with a little help from us. That Shorty was really hard to kill when he was brough to now. Charley said "I stabbed him and he said 'Why Charley why?' and I (Charley) said this is why and I stabbed him again. We just kept stabbing him until Clem cut his head off then we cut him up into 9 pieces and buried him under some leaves. I was standing next to Danny during that conversation and Charley knew vwry well that I was there. Within an hour or so Charley packed all us younger girls Tex Danny and he took us to death valley. Last Spring I had the Pleasure of having lunch with Mr. Kay and he explained to my kid ( I wont say gender ) How my remembering the size and placement of the moon that night showed the date of the murder to be Aug 27 1969 He toled how they got a professional from the Griffith observatory to make that determination at the trial. It was a wonderful reunion to see Mr. Kay again. Shorty's screams have haunted me ever since I have never forgoten them I am well aware that when Shorty's body was recovered that he was not dismembered. And Charley may have said that to give more fear. I don't know what his motives were but I do Know what he said
Charles Manson admitted 'bragged' about his stabbing Shorty He described the murder with blow by blow detail the day after the murder @ Spahn's and the whole time in the desert.
The girls were more afraid of Bruce then Tex Tex was the one who was kind of happy go lucky. Bruce was more intense. He seemed to want to be Charley's second in command he is indeed a killer and he lies all through his parole hearins
Bobby and tex have met Bobby was a fringe member but I would still say he was a member he brought Leslie and Gypsy to the family. About Country Sue from amother thread I don't know her. She joined the family after I left.
Dear Wishes Clem was always desctibed as slow but I never thought so when I knew him because he was just plain crazy he had no inhibitions he had no thought or "hang-ups" I would also say he had no difficulty with the consepts of helter skelter so he wasn't stupid he was animal-like. In another thread some one quoted as a fact that I was face to face with Shorty's wife and didn't tell her about the murder well this a total lie!!! I have never met Shorty's wife I never even knew he had a wife ontil about a year later Long after going to the police.. As for proof of my being who I say I am I could care less if anyone beleaves me or not its not like I get any thing if I get you all to but I will offer some that only I would know " The first week in April 2000 (after our wonderful legal trip to death valley) I had lunch with Mr. Kay.. You guys who are so resouceful I am sure can check that out thank you wishes for letting me vent on your thread.
Squeaky and Gypsy were the main ones who talked me into going Dennis Rice paid for the trip but to put this into contex I should put in some background The day that the story broke dec. first I got my first death threat which continued for the 10 months and 4 days before the trip to hawaii. which definately affected my frame of mind. I did not see Ouish put the acid into the hamburger she disapeared from view when I paid the bill. During our stay in our Hotel we had many conversations one of which I told her a story a friend had told me about two friends of hers She basically said that they took a bunch of pills and then told their mothers and passed out so their moms got them to an ER any way she said that if they really wanted to die they would of not said anything and just maybe gone to the beach awould of just laid in the sand. So anyway afrer I paid for the sandwhich Ouish reappeared gave me the sandwhich swiped her finger in the catsup and put it in her mouth sucking all the catsup off her finger. She turned to me and said "just imagine if there were 10 tabs of acid on that hamburger and I said Wow!!! And she then instructed me to go back to the beach and lay down. She got on her plane and left. I never made it to the beach. I gave more details during the interview with the history channel And now I forgot the rest of your questions I would like to add here that Bill put with abuse from people here for years I on the other hand do not intend to put up with it at all!! and will discontue writing if keeps occuring. I am willing to answer questions and tell of my expirences Thankyou
No I never lived in the south at all the summerville address came from Oh God another story ok here goes--- In late March a bunch of us were in a milk truck heading for the desert when we were stoped in Lancaster and taken to jail and am not sure what for maybe something to do with the truck registration My boyfriend was driving and he had on him that he was David (I think it was James or David ) Lipsett so he told me quietly to pretend that my name was Barbara Lipsett and that we were married that ID is what gave me that address. there are a couple of things on your bio board about me that are wrong. I was never a Barbara Rosenburg and Ouish didn't tell me there were about 10 other killings other then Shorty's it was Sherry
Col. said: ::::::::: "My favorite tidbit of this trip was Sandy Good reporting the trip as illegal and Nellie getting into all sorts of trouble."::::::::::
Neither Sandy nor George actually contacted National Park Law Enforcement, but rather the contemporary ATWA web site did post descriptions by visitor *CanyonWater* about how and why that non-permitted trip was actively being pursued by law enforcement officers in the field as the trip was being conducted.
Or perhaps Charlie's soul has returned from beyond the veil to once again pass among the living, wreaking vengeance on all those that crossed him in this life. And this is just the beginning.
Her dramatic "escape" from Barker for those who have researched it ends with Charlie giving her money to get away
Ends with. That's partly what gives it its sense of drama. The head honcho and very grand Poohbah that they were escaping from after he'd threatened to poke their eyes out with sticks if they tried to leave, catching up with them in Ballarat and giving them $20 and telling them to go back to Spahn...... Which, incidentally, they didn't do. In Paul Watkins' book, he devotes a few pages to the incident and in a way it acts as that breaking point between Charlie and Paul Crockett, that point where Charlie knew it was put up or shut up. The escape is dramatic the way Watkins tells it, the very notion of Charlie catching up with them is dramatic and him not being able to bend them to his will any longer and having to cart them off with $20 is as dramatic as it gets. Whatever else she may or may not have gone on to be or do throughout the rest of her days, the one reality that you can't delete from her last days in the Family is that of the dramatic.
She enjoyed the association and dined out on it all of her days- best thing that ever happened to her, it seems.
Dumb Ugly Grim- sure you can twist anyone's words- the point of MY educated and accurate words were - after claiming that she feared for her life (drama) and escaping through the desert at night (drama) she had such a confrontation that she - was given money.
Hoyt always was a bullshit and dumpling stew even in death.
Oh bother.. haven't had a good Col beverage spew for awhile but bullshit and dumpling stew brought it on..but are we sure it's not plain Cream of Bulkshit?
Ok so no one has died from an OD on LSD but could the point of the great dosing have been to fry her out enough that she didn't return?
And, I am rusty on my TLB, but when Barbara popped out after fleeing weren't other people who were outsiders around and by flipping a twenty at her perhaps gave the impression all was cool instead of having a freak out scene?
After her dramatic escape I take it she then accepted a paid holiday from them in an exchange for not testifying against them? The attempted murder charge was eventually reduced to a misdemeanor one of interfering with a witness but yet she could crop up on TV and more seriously at parole hearings about how they tried to kill her, but no one was ever convicted of that. It's a bit like the 35 victims and the celeb hit list in that it plays to the legend. I'm sure I read somewhere that those who pled guilty did so as there was a deal to keep Ruth out of it as she was about to give birth and it meant she would not do so in jail. They got around a month or so each off the top of my head.
Terry. Find Bill Nelson's old Web address and put it into way back machine and you can read through his site where he first befriends her, then they're writing a book, then they fall out. His website is great as he swings wildly from adoring to vindictive depending on how much love he was receiving from whichever member of the family he was fixating on.
I love these fancy compliments you keep sending me across the Atlantic.....however, Anglo~American protocol prevents me from accepting them. You know how these things can look.....
and suffice it to say the reason it was never prosecuted is because it never happened. Even if the burger was laced with LSD it was never intended to kill her
Oh, it happened, great researcher man. Manson and Bugliosi even part discussed it when Charlie said he hoped Bugliosi wasn't taking certain happenings personally. The real issue is not whether it actually occurred but rather, what the intent was. The DA's office couldn't ultimately prosecute because there was no such thing as an LSD overdose. The case was weaker than watered milk because how do you prove a] how much actual LSD Babs was given and b] that the intent was that she die as a result of being given it because of what she may have done if she freaked out ? There was no case so they got 4 of them on what they could ~ preventing a witness testifying or whatever. Did LE go overboard ? I think yes ~ but understandably so. It was the mindset in the aftermath of having ignored Whitely & Guenther and their info to Jess Buckles about Bobby and the Hinman killing, detective Patchett talking to Charles Manson about the murders and not even writing a report on the interview because he thought nothing of him and Lieut Burdick gleaning from Leslie that members of the Family may have been involved in the Cielo murders but not telling Bob Helder who was in charge of the Tate case and not connecting Family involvement in Zero's "death." After the Family's alleged involvement in TLB, Shorty & Hinman came to light, along with tales of other 'murders' like Crowe and the guy in the desert shot with a .45, pretty much any wrongdoing was seen as fair game to pin on Charlie's mob as it was felt they were up for killing and ripe for a shaking. So they got suspicious even when Randy Starr died of an ear infection. Having not taken these 'hippies' seriously before, they weren't making that mistake again.
CATSCRADLE77 said...
could the point of the great dosing have been to fry her out enough that she didn't return?
I think so. Babs wasn't a seasoned tripper. She testified that she'd only tripped once and that was by mistake thanks to Sadie. The Family {if one is to believe Paul Watkins} weren't averse to freaking out on acid or being present while someone freaked. They'd seen Brooks Poston. They'd seen Dean Moorehouse become a different person after acid. They knew how someone could traverse different worlds and what that could do to someone not experienced and on their own in a place they weren't familiar with. When Grace Slick speaks of wanting to dose Nixon so he'd be talking to melting walls while thinking he was a dog and Thelma Moss says on acid “truth & lies & absurdity & grandeur were all mixed together in the psychedelic experience” it becomes fairly obvious that those in the know had a good idea of what could freak a person out.
I'm sure I read somewhere that those who pled guilty did so as there was a deal to keep Ruth out of it as she was about to give birth and it meant she would not do so in jail
Yeah, Clem said this in his 1981 parole hearing. In that hearing, one of the panel members says the matter was also covered in detail in the 1979 hearing.
After her dramatic escape I take it she then accepted a paid holiday from them in an exchange for not testifying against them?
Actually, Babs' Mum said Babs'd received a threat that she and her family would be killed if she testified. Interestingly, in his book Bugliosi stated that Babs was not just reluctant to testify, but extremely reluctant. Putting those two little bits together, it makes sense she'd go, especially as it was Charlie she'd been escaping from at Barker, not those like Ouisch {whom she actually went to Hawaii with} that she'd considered her friend and also the fact that she'd fled Barker in or around September '69 but it was September '70 that she went to Hawaii. Much can happen in a year. For balance, Clem said that it was Babs that let it be known to some of the women in the Family that she didn't want to testify and wanted to go away and hide somewhere until it was all over and "so, I guess the girls suggested that they go to Hawaii. They bought her tickets." He did corroborate the story of her being given some trippy drugs and explained how they all got indicted ¬> "And one girl went with her. When she went to Hawaii, the girl gave her some hallucinogenic drugs and some food and left her and flew back to the States. And that scared her and she went to, I think, YMCA or something like that and told authorities and then went back to the police and told them that she thought everyone was trying to kill her or dissuade her from testifying. Consequently, everybody that she came in contact with at the ranch that time she mentioned was mentioned in the indictment."
The attempted murder charge was eventually reduced to a misdemeanor one of interfering with a witness but yet she could crop up on TV and more seriously at parole hearings about how they tried to kill her, but no one was ever convicted of that. It's a bit like the 35 victims and the celeb hit list in that it plays to the legend
Unfortunately, it would appear that no one was ever on any of the parole hearing panels that had real in depth details of the whole saga and was therefore able to call her out on saying this. The legend trump carded the truth. That said, it's by no means a foregone conclusion that there weren't thoughts of Babs meeting with an accident that could/would seriously mess her up or hopefully kill her. Mind you, when you think of what was to happen to the likes of Syd Barrett, Roky Erikson and Skip Spence, it's kind of a moot point. The acid laden food wasn't for her well being, let's put it that way. And under the mental pressure of the trip, maybe she got sufficiently paranoid as to think they were trying to kill her and carried that thought with her to her dying day.
Well, blogging that Steve Grogan chopped off Shorty's head, you sure don't !
the point of MY educated and accurate words were - after claiming that she feared for her life (drama) and escaping through the desert at night (drama) she had such a confrontation that she - was given money
Your educated and accurate words demonstrate how dramatic that happening was. Almost like how a good film maker would have scripted it. Besides, the fact that Charlie gave her money doesn't invalidate her fearing for her life prior to this, nor her escaping with Sherry Cooper. The fact that Charlie had to catch up with them {why bother if anyone could leave as and when they pleased ?} in the first place then give them money tells its own dramatic story and if you can't see that or place yourself inside that happening or are too much of a snakeskin cowboy or touchline politician to admit that you may have overshot your runway a little too quickly this time ~ then I can't help you !
Babs was a fucking lying liar who lied
Could be. On the other hand, she could have been someone that never entertained the notion that she could be wrong even when some of the evidence pointed that way. Or maybe it was that she was possessed of simple, no holds barred revenge motivation. "You tried to %££"* with me, I'm gonna $&+=! with you."
She was strange when you see her outside in the court house.I do not understand why she was making faces laughing and talking like it was all fun and games.Waving to her sister.Very strange.
Thank you to those who have responded kindly to her passing. To the people still making fun of her... You are only making yourselves look bad. Imagine someone writing comments like those about your mother/sister/friend right after they died. Friends/family who actually know her read these comments (probably her daughter as well). Please show some respect, stop making fun of someone you don't know, and let those who loved her grieve.
Unknown said: :::::::::::::::: You are only making yourselves look bad. :::::::::::::::::
I beg to differ. Ms. Hoyt's working closely with Bill Nelson will forever make her an object of ridicule. Most people don't understand there is no such thing as an LSD overdose - but everybody knows what child molestation is.
ColScott, Why do you always claim your blog is the only "official TLB" blog? An official is someone who holds an office (function or mandate, regardless whether it carries an actual working space with it) in an organization or government and participates in the exercise of authority (either their own or that of their superior and/or employer, public or legally private). Who gave you authority to claim "official TLB" blog? I run an official website of a late actor, as the estate owner granted me legal rights to represent my website the official website of this actor. I don't understand why you claim your blog to be the official blog of a specific murder case.
ColScott, Why do you always claim your blog is the only "official TLB" blog.....I don't understand why you claim your blog to be the official blog of a specific murder case
It's a sense of humour thing and being tongue in cheek. At the time it was possibly the best TLB site going. It was pretty interactive and far reaching, pushed a lot of really interesting perspectives, over a remarkable 10 year period consistently drew thoughts from a tremendous array of characters and was very specific in its aim of finding the true motive of the Tate/LaBianca murders because its main wheel, the Col, didn't accept the official findings. In a way it probably was actually the Official TLB blog for much of its time. It had a seriousness that took the case among aficionados to a different level. There's a site that calls itself the 2nd official Tate~LaBianca murders blog of which, a higher compliment couldn't really be paid to Scotty's old blog. You shouldn't take it so seriously John. Scotty's site hasn't done anything since 2014 but nevertheless, you should check out its archives. There's gold in them thar hills.....
TO Unknown the way she is waving to her sister and laughing saying hello piggy in spanish did not show any respect to the family of the victims It was like it was all fun and games.
I went to search and only now I learned of the death of Barbara ... I am not American, I am from Brazil, and for some time I learned about all the events about the Manson family, for research
I went to search and only now I learned of the death of Barbara ... I am not American, I am from Brazil, and for some time I learned about all the events about the Manson family, for research
It's a joke that all these people have left some horrible comments about Barbara. The woman is dead so it's easy to talk crap about her. She's not here to defend herself. Who cares about some guy Nelson or any of the other BS that was brought up. Was this "dawnn" who left a comment regarding how Barbara acted in the court room there? There's no way that Debra Tate would've been friends with Barbara had she acted out in the court room. These murders took place over fifty years ago. Yet there are people who are obsessed by them. They need to get a life. Let the victims of the Manson murders rest in peace. Their obsession with the murders is very hurtful to the victims' families. This comment section wasn't meant to talk crap about Barbara. She became a nurse and helped people, Which is a lot more than some of the people who left comments did with their lives. As for what any of the people who had something against Barbara they need to get over it and get a life!
60 comments:
Thinking of the way she escaped from the wilderness of Barker, the way she protected her family from the Family by hightailing it off to Hawaii {even though she used to argue with her Dad and was a runaway} and the way she came back to testify, even though she knew first hand what her "friends" were capable of with their philosophy of "snitches, every snitch, gets taken care of....gets righteously taken care of, righteously...."{not to mention some of the stuff that came out in open court for all the world to be made aware of and remember to the present day}, I'd have to say that Babs was pretty resilient back in the day. While her Shorty testimony will always be suspect and have ???s hanging over it and her reasoning for turning up at parole hearings for anyone other than Charlie and Tex leaves a bad taste, she was gutsy.
I always found it quite fascinating that Sandy thought she was "a pretty girl" and Squeaky said that they saw in her a beautiful woman that had been taught to be clumsy by society.
There’s a show on the History Channel right now where they are discussing the mysterious death of Zero. That has always interested me. I think it was a murder. Also RIP Barbara.
The truth is slipping out of our grasp more and more...
RIP Barbara
RIP Barbara. Good work in life as a nurse and strength in fighting for what she believed in.
She seemed like a nice person. RIP
I think Barbara Hoyt was genuinely horrified over what her friends did. She was with them just a short time, but whatever happened in that time frame was enough to keep her haunted for life. A lot of people over the years have claimed she was lying about hearing someone scream. I don't. I think Manson & friends caused a lot of people to scream! Rest in peace, Barbara!
I'm clamoring for a comment by the Col.
Sorry to hear about Hoyt's death.
A hard life and a short one; not a good deal.
Manson Blog deserves props for getting story out.
My first dealings with Barbara were on the Ronson board. She was using the name Pickles and was very kind to me. At that point, she was hanging around Bill Nelson. They had a falling out- according to him- over his Costco card. (whatever, hard to say what the truth is in the matter). Before he was outted as a perv (upon which we had a falling out when I confronted him on it and he tried to lie is way out of it), we had spent a lot of time talking on the phone where he had many unkind things to say about her weight. I am not going to repeat them here.
She did what she had to do- do I agree with it? Maybe, maybe not but I'm not Judge Judy and its not my show.
Another gone to the list. Sigh.
Hi Cat welcome back
your honesty and lack of souvenir hunting has been sorely missed
Clamoring huh? I would normally do a full post to mark her passing but since Patty has caused so much turmoil I will just do bullet points here--
1- It did not take anyone more than 5 minutes to see what an asshole Nelson was. Sometimes if you were wicked smart like Statman it took 3- if you were an overly kind soul like Doris Tate it took 6. But no one with an ounce of brains listened to Nelson save for the fact that he had shit real researchers wanted. I was glad to pay for them. The one time I spoke to him I felt sick.
Yet for almost a year Hoyt worked with him, selling tickets to a tour that would be a REUNION (can you fucking believe that?) tour of Death Valley. Under the pseudonym DESERT SPEAKS Babs did interview tapes (also sold) for Nellie and in general spread her story for all to see. Fuck her.
My favorite tidbit of this trip was Sandy Good reporting the trip as illegal and Nellie getting into all sorts of trouble. George- I seem to recall she came along too under a fake name...or did I dream it?
2- This trip led to the Col becoming obsessed with the Honolulu caper...and suffice it to say the reason it was never prosecuted is because it never happened. Even if the burger was laced with LSD it was never intended to kill her. Literally no one ever died in history from an LSD overdose. Babs wanted to #metoo before it was fashionable. To be clear, this drama and desire to be included became an essential part of her useless life.
3- This led to further investigation and basically Barbara Hoyt was a drama queen desperate for the attention she never had growing up. Her dramatic "escape" from Barker for those who have researched it ends with Charlie giving her money to get away. The rest is nonsense.
4- The most fucked up thing this woman did was continue to testify in the Shorty Shea hearings giving provably false testimony so that she could feel valued in her later years. "Ohhh I was art of something big and did good." Actually even by her own story she escaped the ranch and knew Susan had killed Sharon and told NO ONE.
5- Debra her dear friend cannot spell her fucking name right.
6- Nelson, who died of diabetes complications from being a fat piece of shit talking about her weight is rich. Hoyt sucked because she was a liar.
Further to the above
7- she was not valuable to anyone's conviction, Linda pretty much took care of that for everyone
8- She was a nurse. That's fine. Accomplished means what exactly?
9- Lie down on the beach? Wtf did she just make that up out of her whale ass?
What did Patty do now? Sheesh
Thanks Col.
How about when Nellie was selling $200 dinner invites to eat with him and a few others including Dianne Lake and her husband? I have the video of that somewhere in my collection. He gave me a copy.
He was a creepy piece of dung- I really never ever ever want to hear about the side effects of certain medication. Also, this was around the time Ronson was pretending to be Ruth Ann. It was nasty.
The whole Shorty thing puzzled me for years and still does. If she was gonna lie why not get the time right with the rest of everyone?
Argh.
Well that was nice.
only issue Ive always had is making fun of Babs weight...she really never seemed like some schister oyt for the bucks or noteriety As far as Col Scott...I recently learned he was one of the producers of NBK my second fav film after the Exorcist...third would be Manson....so since I ch e rish nbk watched it at leasr 100 times...whatever Don Murphy on hoyt but Id love your autograph on an nbk dvd just saying
< 5- Debra her dear friend cannot spell her fucking name right. >
First thing I thought when read D's announcement !!! :-) :-)
Wish her well on her journey.
I am in possession of many of the posts from the Ronson board. In those days (2001) there no logins or authentication, so impersonation was rampant and heckling common.
I don’t recall how it was determined that Clark Ronson, the message board founder, was pretending to be Ruth Ann or how his real identity was discovered. There was Lost Star who claimed to be Country Sue and Karen who claimed to be Steven Parent’s girlfriend. If Cats says so, then the poster known as Freckles was Barbara Hoyt. Here is a sample or two. It might be too much to post them all as comments and the without the replies and questions from other people there is no context.
Squeeky didn't just take care of George she loved him with all her heart several of the girls hed sex with old George he was a nasty dirty old man I beleave Squeeky's love for him was long term and genuine.
you know its a funny thing you should say that the first thing that Sadie did when I met her was squat down down in front of me and cut one at first I was shocked but then I thought it was funny.
Bill does not understand why you all give him all this negative attention as he himself says "he is not the story". it's like if everybody attacked your web server what would be the point. Now I very well realize that the pro manson people would stop at nothing including murder to keep witnesses quiet they have done that. so Iam figuring that is where much of the attacks are generated. as I said in another note this whole thing was so so evil thanks Freckles
Pref- WHY do you have the comments to the Ronson board?
Karen McCoy Montecillo was a friend of Steven Parent, went to prom with him. COL made a bet of $500 that she was not his girlfriend. She acknowledged that she was a girl who was a friend but he was gay so since it was good cause, like a marching band I think, I gave half the money to the charity. She died a while ago because she was big as a house too.
Candy- sure np
CATS- IIRC Nellie was planning to make those dinners regular events. I know he takes years but the next Max Frost post should be the road trip that he went on with Nellie to the Zodiac sights. Classic.
I still remember the post headline "Clark is Ruth Ann- and Many Others." Turned out whoever it was was a Neve Campbell stalker who wanted everyone to think he had good intentions but was just a troll. Everyone moved on to the GoRightly Message board then Heaven's yahoo group.
Best thing about the Ronson board was that was where George/Sandy promulgated (via Atwa) Nellie's plea to sexual conduct with an 11 year old.
Now I am going to tell a story so don't freek out this time!!<BR>It's about a ranch hand at Spahn's oh oh I can hear them getting rebbed up. His name was Larry Craven he was a little guy and was somewhat retarded. He also thought the world of Jaun Flynn. He admired him and wanted very much to be jusst like him in every way. Jaun was a tall and strong young man with lots of muscles It was nothing for Larry to put on several shirts even in 90 degrees heat go to Jaun and say "see partner Ive got lots of muscles just like you." Larry always called Jaun "partner". One time there was a little fire in one the trailors and Larry ran to the phone and called the fire dept. and excitedly yelled into the phone " Fire-dept we got a fire up here !!" and they asked "where? " and he answered "in the trailor!!" Click! he hung up the phone the fire dept never made it and the trailor burned to the ground. Yes Larry could function at menial tasks but he was definately retarded. Larry had another problem he was incontinent and frequently wet his pants. One hot day Jaun decided to clean out a trailor in the back of ranch he scrubed and scrubed all day so Larry comes over and admires the remarkable job Jaun did making it a perfect little home You wouldn't notice that it wasn't quite level but that was only a miner problem anyway Larry says to Jaun "gee partner this is beautiful can I bunk with you?" and Jaun says " No partner you would wet the bed". "no I wont says larry I'll pee in this coffee can" So he picked up this old coffee can and procedes to show Jaun how well he can pee in it. He was so proud of himself well guess what? That darned old can had holes in the bottom of and the pee went throught it and down the floor that was slightly down hill. Jaun was pretty mad.
Charley led the younger girls and sone of the men to Golder wash the day after Shorty was murdered. They arrived at the foot of Golder wash at night and started up the 9 mile canyon in the morning. 2 todlers were with them Pooh bear and Dennis De Carlo Danny's little son. His mother had some Indian in her so Charley said that Dennis would be Pooh Bear's slave. One the girls who was a girl friend of Danny's wanted to make sure that Danny didn't find that one out. Anyway it was a long uphill hot trip. At about 1/2 way up there was a little spring and Danny got a drink from it and he immeadately spit the water out Cussing that the water was puetred really bad Well Danny and Tex opened up the well and there was a dead batt in the water after taking the whole day to get up to Barkers Tex drove the power wagon that was up there back down to the falls of Golder to get Charley {you couldn't get a car up the first mile of the canyon it was not passible}. Charley didn't walk up the canyon he said that his ribs hurt from being hit by the police during the raid on the ranch about 2 weeks before and was driven up by Tex. It was a week before any of the other members of the family arrived and the main diet staple was figs and pomagranits that grew at Meyers ranch There was a spring pool at both Barkers and Meyers. The girls sunbathed and entertained each other by reading to each other stories from old west magazines that were found in the bus parked at Barkers. Charley was really mean during this time and the girls were afraid of him. After a week Sadie and others arrived and thats when meyers ranch was broken into. And then there were a few more creature comforts Jaun came up with Sadie. There are lots of events that happened during this time that would make history later.
the at the moment motive for killing white people was to show "blackie" how to do it he wanted the black people to be blamed for the murders. He picked the Tate house because of his anger towards Terry Melcher whom he beleaved would help put out his music. If Charley didn't have a grudge against Mr. Melcher then he would have gone to pick a house at random like he did the second night. Thanks Freckles
The killers drove around looking for someone to kill Charley was going to shoot a driver in a car next to him but the light changed and he drove away to quickly fortunately for him He then stoped at a house and looked in their windows and seeing pictures decided against doing that house Charley said that children may have to be killed at some point but diddn't want to then he tried to go into a church and was going to crucify the minister but being late the church was locked and the minister was not there then after all these foiled attempts did Manson get deliberate about his directions and headed for Howard True's house and commence to kill the Labianca's next door. thanks Freckles
I have a copy of helter skelter mine is autographed but I don't need it to talk about the case
Lol yes Freckles not Pickles. Lol. And I remember Lost Star but I had questions to whether or not it was Country Sue. I think I asked her a question about Bobby or someone who was long gone before Bartell came along. Her answer did not fit.
No he dosn't deserve this wrath there is much more anger towards Bill up here then against Charley there is certainly much more written about Bill then any of the murder victums about Charley or the family members or the story. All you guys do is bemoan Bill. Isn't there anything that would be of more interest? I'll be off the computrer for about an hour but I am willing to discuss the actual events if you want but I wont give in to all this Bill bashing
Like I said in an earlier note I will not focus on anti Bill garbage obviously it will not change any opinions here. I have never seen him attack anybody only answer attacks directed at him. if you are interested in talking about the story then ok that I will do thanks Freckles
If your questions just keep getting harder why don't you just go and ask Bill? He is a grown man go to his web site and E-mail a quiestion he will answer if you act like a civil human being like skipping the threats and the nasty name calling. meanwhile is any one interested in talking about the case?
As I have said Iam not interested in Bill bashing if you have a problem then go to him and work it out. Isn't there any one here who actually wants to talk about the case or does any one know of amessage board that does? thanks Freckles
He dosn't usually read these boards but I asked him to yesterday he dosn't think much of them because so many people here are so opressive but I wanted to check this out for myself.
(This one confuses me)
any way as I said Barbara and Dianne split up going to different areas of the ranch I stayed with Barbara as she went through the ranch house She showed us the little bedroom where she and Sherry slept the night before escaped from the family the old beds were still in there well the frames and springs were. Though they wern't in the same place in the room She showed the old bathroom where Charley was hiding. The cabinet is gone. She moved over to a certain spot in the kitchen and talked about when she over heard Sadie telling Ruth about the murders {this is when she first knew about the murders} and What Sadie said Tex had done to Abigle Foldger She over heard this at meyers ranch left there and came over to Barkers and was standing at this spot and Tex was standing right there. and as she was thinging about what Tex had done He looked at her and said Gee your face is all colors of the desert! She said she realized right there that she couldn't let them know that she knew and at that point the knowledge left her like amnesia not to return till a monthe later in the safty of sleeping in her grandmothers bed but thats anouther story. thenabout 6 of us ladies made our selves deli- lunches can you beleave it some of the people brought a whole truck load of food an drinks and ice and plates we had every thing our hearts could desire And as I said several of us ladies ate lunch in the Barker ranch kitchen table jokingly talking about leaving the mess for 'blue'. Well we did clean it up and afterwards Barbara gave an hour long talk about her expirences with the family during parts of which she cried and then answered questions until there wern't any more. Most of the people had their tape recorders on her. When all was over Barb said she felt great about this exprence stating she didn't feel like a surviver any more but also now feels like an over-commer. And that this trip had shrunk the monster for her. Funny during this day other groups came up to the ranch to. At one point a whole group of japaneese tourists came through as well and none of them knew that day that they had visited the ranch with 2 ex-members there Thanks
If you stood at the front door of George Spahn's ranch house walked down the steps and turned to your left and walked past the board walk to the back of the ranch (this is not the to be mistaken for the back house which is behind George's house and about 1/2 mile down the road) you would come to a group of little old trailers and the end one over looking the creek-bed below is where I was sleeping the night that Shorty was murdered. I had just laid my head down when I was jolted back up by a blood curdling scream. Then there was silence and then the screams started again and again and on and on they seemed to last forever I remember looking out the little window and remembered how light it was from the full moon there were some leaves pressed on the window that I can remember every detail of them. Then I remember being on the floor of the trailer croutched in a fetal position. Iam not sure but I think that I woke there the next morning. When I woke early the next morning I went to the board-walk and went into the cafe and asked Gypsy if she had heard Shorty scream last night and she said very sternly to me that Shorty had gone to San Francisco. I had excepted her explanation and the memory of the scream went totally out of my mind. Later Danny De Carlo and I were taling behind the ranch when Charley came and addressed Danny. Charley asked Danny if lye or lime would get rid of a body and Danny told him that lime would preserve a body and lye would get rid of it. Then Charley told Danny that Shorty had committed suicide with a little help from us. That Shorty was really hard to kill when he was brough to now. Charley said "I stabbed him and he said 'Why Charley why?' and I (Charley) said this is why and I stabbed him again. We just kept stabbing him until Clem cut his head off then we cut him up into 9 pieces and buried him under some leaves. I was standing next to Danny during that conversation and Charley knew vwry well that I was there. Within an hour or so Charley packed all us younger girls Tex Danny and he took us to death valley. Last Spring I had the Pleasure of having lunch with Mr. Kay and he explained to my kid ( I wont say gender ) How my remembering the size and placement of the moon that night showed the date of the murder to be Aug 27 1969 He toled how they got a professional from the Griffith observatory to make that determination at the trial. It was a wonderful reunion to see Mr. Kay again. Shorty's screams have haunted me ever since I have never forgoten them I am well aware that when Shorty's body was recovered that he was not dismembered. And Charley may have said that to give more fear. I don't know what his motives were but I do Know what he said
Charles Manson admitted 'bragged' about his stabbing Shorty He described the murder with blow by blow detail the day after the murder @ Spahn's and the whole time in the desert.
The girls were more afraid of Bruce then Tex Tex was the one who was kind of happy go lucky. Bruce was more intense. He seemed to want to be Charley's second in command he is indeed a killer and he lies all through his parole hearins
Bobby and tex have met Bobby was a fringe member but I would still say he was a member he brought Leslie and Gypsy to the family. About Country Sue from amother thread I don't know her. She joined the family after I left.
Dear Wishes Clem was always desctibed as slow but I never thought so when I knew him because he was just plain crazy he had no inhibitions he had no thought or "hang-ups" I would also say he had no difficulty with the consepts of helter skelter so he wasn't stupid he was animal-like. In another thread some one quoted as a fact that I was face to face with Shorty's wife and didn't tell her about the murder well this a total lie!!! I have never met Shorty's wife I never even knew he had a wife ontil about a year later Long after going to the police.. As for proof of my being who I say I am I could care less if anyone beleaves me or not its not like I get any thing if I get you all to but I will offer some that only I would know " The first week in April 2000 (after our wonderful legal trip to death valley) I had lunch with Mr. Kay.. You guys who are so resouceful I am sure can check that out thank you wishes for letting me vent on your thread.
Squeaky and Gypsy were the main ones who talked me into going Dennis Rice paid for the trip but to put this into contex I should put in some background The day that the story broke dec. first I got my first death threat which continued for the 10 months and 4 days before the trip to hawaii. which definately affected my frame of mind. I did not see Ouish put the acid into the hamburger she disapeared from view when I paid the bill. During our stay in our Hotel we had many conversations one of which I told her a story a friend had told me about two friends of hers She basically said that they took a bunch of pills and then told their mothers and passed out so their moms got them to an ER any way she said that if they really wanted to die they would of not said anything and just maybe gone to the beach awould of just laid in the sand. So anyway afrer I paid for the sandwhich Ouish reappeared gave me the sandwhich swiped her finger in the catsup and put it in her mouth sucking all the catsup off her finger. She turned to me and said "just imagine if there were 10 tabs of acid on that hamburger and I said Wow!!! And she then instructed me to go back to the beach and lay down. She got on her plane and left. I never made it to the beach. I gave more details during the interview with the history channel And now I forgot the rest of your questions I would like to add here that Bill put with abuse from people here for years I on the other hand do not intend to put up with it at all!! and will discontue writing if keeps occuring. I am willing to answer questions and tell of my expirences Thankyou
No I never lived in the south at all the summerville address came from Oh God another story ok here goes--- In late March a bunch of us were in a milk truck heading for the desert when we were stoped in Lancaster and taken to jail and am not sure what for maybe something to do with the truck registration My boyfriend was driving and he had on him that he was David (I think it was James or David ) Lipsett so he told me quietly to pretend that my name was Barbara Lipsett and that we were married that ID is what gave me that address. there are a couple of things on your bio board about me that are wrong. I was never a Barbara Rosenburg and Ouish didn't tell me there were about 10 other killings other then Shorty's it was Sherry
Col. said:
::::::::: "My favorite tidbit of this trip was Sandy Good reporting the trip as illegal and Nellie getting into all sorts of trouble."::::::::::
Neither Sandy nor George actually contacted National Park Law Enforcement, but rather the contemporary ATWA web site did post descriptions by visitor *CanyonWater* about how and why that non-permitted trip was actively being pursued by law enforcement officers in the field as the trip was being conducted.
Perhaps the central irony of the untimely passing of Barbara Hoyt at age 66 is her outlasting her tormentor by several weeks.
After enduring a lifetime of torment from her association with Charles Manson, she can perhaps now rest in peace.
Or perhaps Charlie's soul has returned from beyond the veil to once again pass among the living, wreaking vengeance on all those that crossed him in this life. And this is just the beginning.
Just sayin'.
Col Scott said...
Her dramatic "escape" from Barker for those who have researched it ends with Charlie giving her money to get away
Ends with. That's partly what gives it its sense of drama. The head honcho and very grand Poohbah that they were escaping from after he'd threatened to poke their eyes out with sticks if they tried to leave, catching up with them in Ballarat and giving them $20 and telling them to go back to Spahn......
Which, incidentally, they didn't do.
In Paul Watkins' book, he devotes a few pages to the incident and in a way it acts as that breaking point between Charlie and Paul Crockett, that point where Charlie knew it was put up or shut up. The escape is dramatic the way Watkins tells it, the very notion of Charlie catching up with them is dramatic and him not being able to bend them to his will any longer and having to cart them off with $20 is as dramatic as it gets. Whatever else she may or may not have gone on to be or do throughout the rest of her days, the one reality that you can't delete from her last days in the Family is that of the dramatic.
Terry-
She enjoyed the association and dined out on it all of her days- best thing that ever happened to her, it seems.
Dumb Ugly Grim- sure you can twist anyone's words- the point of MY educated and accurate words were - after claiming that she feared for her life (drama) and escaping through the desert at night (drama) she had such a confrontation that she - was given money.
Hoyt always was a bullshit and dumpling stew even in death.
One way to tell it's really Hoyt is she always mentioned food,lunch,donuts etc in some part of her stories
Geez, do I detect a hint of bitterness regarding Hoyt from the Col. and Peter????
And if so, what would be the (legit) basis?
I ain't even bitter. I always thought Babs was kind of cute in a nerdy kind of way.
I'm just speculating on the power of Charlie's infinite soul.
Oh bother.. haven't had a good Col beverage spew for awhile but bullshit and dumpling stew brought it on..but are we sure it's not plain Cream of Bulkshit?
Ok so no one has died from an OD on LSD but could the point of the great dosing have been to fry her out enough that she didn't return?
And, I am rusty on my TLB, but when Barbara popped out after fleeing weren't other people who were outsiders around and by flipping a twenty at her perhaps gave the impression all was cool instead of having a freak out scene?
Didn't she testify at Leslie's trials? She got a bit grumpy cos Leslie visited Watkins between trials and he swapped over from prosecution to defence?
If I remember correctly her super secret code name as Nellie's guest of honor in the national park was *DesertEats*.
Terry
You need to READ all the comments and all the blog entries (this one and the ONLY Official TLB Blog) and then ask questions.
Short answer- Babs was a fucking lying liar who lied
"Desert Topping"
After her dramatic escape I take it she then accepted a paid holiday from them in an exchange for not testifying against them?
The attempted murder charge was eventually reduced to a misdemeanor one of interfering with a witness but yet she could crop up on TV and more seriously at parole hearings about how they tried to kill her, but no one was ever convicted of that. It's a bit like the 35 victims and the celeb hit list in that it plays to the legend.
I'm sure I read somewhere that those who pled guilty did so as there was a deal to keep Ruth out of it as she was about to give birth and it meant she would not do so in jail. They got around a month or so each off the top of my head.
Terry. Find Bill Nelson's old Web address and put it into way back machine and you can read through his site where he first befriends her, then they're writing a book, then they fall out. His website is great as he swings wildly from adoring to vindictive depending on how much love he was receiving from whichever member of the family he was fixating on.
ColScott said...
Dumb Ugly Grim
I love these fancy compliments you keep sending me across the Atlantic.....however, Anglo~American protocol prevents me from accepting them. You know how these things can look.....
and suffice it to say the reason it was never prosecuted is because it never happened. Even if the burger was laced with LSD it was never intended to kill her
Oh, it happened, great researcher man. Manson and Bugliosi even part discussed it when Charlie said he hoped Bugliosi wasn't taking certain happenings personally.
The real issue is not whether it actually occurred but rather, what the intent was. The DA's office couldn't ultimately prosecute because there was no such thing as an LSD overdose. The case was weaker than watered milk because how do you prove a] how much actual LSD Babs was given and b] that the intent was that she die as a result of being given it because of what she may have done if she freaked out ? There was no case so they got 4 of them on what they could ~ preventing a witness testifying or whatever.
Did LE go overboard ? I think yes ~ but understandably so. It was the mindset in the aftermath of having ignored Whitely & Guenther and their info to Jess Buckles about Bobby and the Hinman killing, detective Patchett talking to Charles Manson about the murders and not even writing a report on the interview because he thought nothing of him and Lieut Burdick gleaning from Leslie that members of the Family may have been involved in the Cielo murders but not telling Bob Helder who was in charge of the Tate case and not connecting Family involvement in Zero's "death." After the Family's alleged involvement in TLB, Shorty & Hinman came to light, along with tales of other 'murders' like Crowe and the guy in the desert shot with a .45, pretty much any wrongdoing was seen as fair game to pin on Charlie's mob as it was felt they were up for killing and ripe for a shaking. So they got suspicious even when Randy Starr died of an ear infection. Having not taken these 'hippies' seriously before, they weren't making that mistake again.
CATSCRADLE77 said...
could the point of the great dosing have been to fry her out enough that she didn't return?
I think so. Babs wasn't a seasoned tripper. She testified that she'd only tripped once and that was by mistake thanks to Sadie. The Family {if one is to believe Paul Watkins} weren't averse to freaking out on acid or being present while someone freaked. They'd seen Brooks Poston. They'd seen Dean Moorehouse become a different person after acid. They knew how someone could traverse different worlds and what that could do to someone not experienced and on their own in a place they weren't familiar with. When Grace Slick speaks of wanting to dose Nixon so he'd be talking to melting walls while thinking he was a dog and Thelma Moss says on acid “truth & lies & absurdity & grandeur were all mixed together in the psychedelic experience” it becomes fairly obvious that those in the know had a good idea of what could freak a person out.
christopher butche said...
I'm sure I read somewhere that those who pled guilty did so as there was a deal to keep Ruth out of it as she was about to give birth and it meant she would not do so in jail
Yeah, Clem said this in his 1981 parole hearing. In that hearing, one of the panel members says the matter was also covered in detail in the 1979 hearing.
After her dramatic escape I take it she then accepted a paid holiday from them in an exchange for not testifying against them?
Actually, Babs' Mum said Babs'd received a threat that she and her family would be killed if she testified.
Interestingly, in his book Bugliosi stated that Babs was not just reluctant to testify, but extremely reluctant. Putting those two little bits together, it makes sense she'd go, especially as it was Charlie she'd been escaping from at Barker, not those like Ouisch {whom she actually went to Hawaii with} that she'd considered her friend and also the fact that she'd fled Barker in or around September '69 but it was September '70 that she went to Hawaii. Much can happen in a year.
For balance, Clem said that it was Babs that let it be known to some of the women in the Family that she didn't want to testify and wanted to go away and hide somewhere until it was all over and "so, I guess the girls suggested that they go to Hawaii. They bought her tickets." He did corroborate the story of her being given some trippy drugs and explained how they all got indicted ¬> "And one girl went with her. When she went to Hawaii, the girl gave her some hallucinogenic drugs and some food and left her and flew back to the States. And that scared her and she went to, I think, YMCA or something like that and told authorities and then went back to the police and told them that she thought everyone was trying to kill her or dissuade her from testifying. Consequently, everybody that she came in contact with at the ranch that time she mentioned was mentioned in the indictment."
The attempted murder charge was eventually reduced to a misdemeanor one of interfering with a witness but yet she could crop up on TV and more seriously at parole hearings about how they tried to kill her, but no one was ever convicted of that. It's a bit like the 35 victims and the celeb hit list in that it plays to the legend
Unfortunately, it would appear that no one was ever on any of the parole hearing panels that had real in depth details of the whole saga and was therefore able to call her out on saying this. The legend trump carded the truth.
That said, it's by no means a foregone conclusion that there weren't thoughts of Babs meeting with an accident that could/would seriously mess her up or hopefully kill her. Mind you, when you think of what was to happen to the likes of Syd Barrett, Roky Erikson and Skip Spence, it's kind of a moot point. The acid laden food wasn't for her well being, let's put it that way. And under the mental pressure of the trip, maybe she got sufficiently paranoid as to think they were trying to kill her and carried that thought with her to her dying day.
ColScott said...
sure you can twist anyone's words
Well, blogging that Steve Grogan chopped off Shorty's head, you sure don't !
the point of MY educated and accurate words were - after claiming that she feared for her life (drama) and escaping through the desert at night (drama) she had such a confrontation that she - was given money
Your educated and accurate words demonstrate how dramatic that happening was. Almost like how a good film maker would have scripted it.
Besides, the fact that Charlie gave her money doesn't invalidate her fearing for her life prior to this, nor her escaping with Sherry Cooper. The fact that Charlie had to catch up with them {why bother if anyone could leave as and when they pleased ?} in the first place then give them money tells its own dramatic story and if you can't see that or place yourself inside that happening or are too much of a snakeskin cowboy or touchline politician to admit that you may have overshot your runway a little too quickly this time ~ then I can't help you !
Babs was a fucking lying liar who lied
Could be.
On the other hand, she could have been someone that never entertained the notion that she could be wrong even when some of the evidence pointed that way.
Or maybe it was that she was possessed of simple, no holds barred revenge motivation. "You tried to %££"* with me, I'm gonna $&+=! with you."
She was strange when you see her outside in the court house.I do not understand why she was making faces laughing and talking like it was all fun and games.Waving to her sister.Very strange.
In those days, I think it was a big deal to be in the papers and on telly. Now we're kind of blasé about it but not in 1970.
Hoyte went from Hottie to Nottie
Thank you to those who have responded kindly to her passing. To the people still making fun of her... You are only making yourselves look bad. Imagine someone writing comments like those about your mother/sister/friend right after they died. Friends/family who actually know her read these comments (probably her daughter as well). Please show some respect, stop making fun of someone you don't know, and let those who loved her grieve.
Unknown said:
:::::::::::::::: You are only making yourselves look bad. :::::::::::::::::
I beg to differ. Ms. Hoyt's working closely with Bill Nelson will forever make her an object of ridicule. Most people don't understand there is no such thing as an LSD overdose - but everybody knows what child molestation is.
ColScott, Why do you always claim your blog is the only "official TLB" blog?
An official is someone who holds an office (function or mandate, regardless whether it carries an actual working space with it) in an organization or government and participates in the exercise of authority (either their own or that of their superior and/or employer, public or legally private).
Who gave you authority to claim "official TLB" blog?
I run an official website of a late actor, as the estate owner granted me legal rights to represent my website the official website of this actor.
I don't understand why you claim your blog to be the official blog of a specific murder case.
John Seger said...
ColScott, Why do you always claim your blog is the only "official TLB" blog.....I don't understand why you claim your blog to be the official blog of a specific murder case
It's a sense of humour thing and being tongue in cheek. At the time it was possibly the best TLB site going. It was pretty interactive and far reaching, pushed a lot of really interesting perspectives, over a remarkable 10 year period consistently drew thoughts from a tremendous array of characters and was very specific in its aim of finding the true motive of the Tate/LaBianca murders because its main wheel, the Col, didn't accept the official findings.
In a way it probably was actually the Official TLB blog for much of its time. It had a seriousness that took the case among aficionados to a different level. There's a site that calls itself the 2nd official Tate~LaBianca murders blog of which, a higher compliment couldn't really be paid to Scotty's old blog.
You shouldn't take it so seriously John. Scotty's site hasn't done anything since 2014 but nevertheless, you should check out its archives. There's gold in them thar hills.....
grimtraveller,
I was just curious as to why it was called official. Thanks for the info.
TO Unknown the way she is waving to her sister and laughing saying hello piggy in spanish did not show any respect to the family of the victims It was like it was all fun and games.
I went to search and only now I learned of the death of Barbara ...
I am not American, I am from Brazil, and for some time I learned about all the events about the Manson family, for research
I went to search and only now I learned of the death of Barbara ...
I am not American, I am from Brazil, and for some time I learned about all the events about the Manson family, for research
It's a joke that all these people have left some horrible comments about Barbara. The woman is dead so it's easy to talk crap about her. She's not here to defend herself. Who cares about some guy Nelson or any of the other BS that was brought up. Was this "dawnn" who left a comment regarding how Barbara acted in the court room there? There's no way that Debra Tate would've been friends with Barbara had she acted out in the court room. These murders took place over fifty years ago. Yet there are people who are obsessed by them. They need to get a life. Let the victims of the Manson murders rest in peace. Their obsession with the murders is very hurtful to the victims' families. This comment section wasn't meant to talk crap about Barbara. She became a nurse and helped people, Which is a lot more than some of the people who left comments did with their lives. As for what any of the people who had something against Barbara they need to get over it and get a life!
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