Charles Manson -- the man who masterminded one of the most heinous murder sprees in American history -- is dead ... this according to the sister of his famous victim.
Debra Tate tells TMZ she received a call from the prison telling her Manson died 8:13 PM Sunday.
We're told the prison is contacting all of the victims' families.
Manson was recently wheeled into Bakersfield hospital and escorted by 5 uniformed cops. Our sources had said at the time, "It's just a matter of time." He was covered in blankets and looked ashen in the gurney.
TMZ broke the story ... Manson was taken from Corcoran State Prison to the hospital back in January where he was being treated for intestinal bleeding.
As we reported ... Manson was supposed to undergo surgery but it was deemed too risky.
Manson has been locked up since his arrest in December 1969 for the Tate-LaBianca murders. He was convicted of conspiracy to commit the slayings, which occurred one day after the next in August 1969.
Read the story here
N.Y. Times is reporting Manson has died.
ReplyDeleteWow it finally happened
ReplyDeleteStupid people. Everybody knows you can't kill THE SOUL.
ReplyDeleteAnd all those secrets go with him. Always hoped a moment of clarity would come and he would reveal something to make more sense of the whole thing.
ReplyDeleteTMZ broke the news and now it has been picked up by many other news outlets. Prison officials have confirmed his death.
ReplyDeleteTwo down two to go
ReplyDeleteJeez I forgot my Manson doll "Firestarter" was supposed to burst into flames upon Manson's death. Strangely it has not happened.
ReplyDeleteI'll say the cliche comment:
ReplyDelete"The End of an Era."
Except we all know this really isn't The End (My Friend). We are all One. Someone dying is just like a piece of cookie being broken off. I am he As you are he As you are me And we are all together. Charlie has transcended his material form to become inseparable from ATWA.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“I am the man in the mirror, anything you see in me is in you, I am you, and when you can admit that you will be free. I am just a mirror.” -CM, Rolling Stone interview, 1970
"We're all our own prisons, we are each all our own wardens and we do our own time. I can't judge anyone else. What other people do is not really my affair unless they approach me with it. Prison's in your mind. Can't you see I'm free?" - CM, trial testimony, 1970
"“Yeah… get educated… study the mystery of history, and the ramis-jamis… and in the meantime, we’ll call it the in-between time. Then, on the other hand, of course, you have a ring.” Charlie looked down at his left hand, the middle finger of which sported a turquoise ring. “Now,” he went on, “take the toad’s toenail… pretty ain’t it – bleep, bleep – ride in a jeep.” - CM via Little Paul, 'My Life With Charles Manson'
I realized awhile ago he never was going to give any clarity to what went down or why.Definitely the end of a chapter. What happens to his body now though?
ReplyDeleteI agree, Marc. The only reason that I'm sorry to see him go is that he may have been the only one to know the true motive, presuming that it's not HS.
ReplyDeleteI think Watson and Davis know the truth, but I don't think they will ever talk. Maybe Watson will if he truly is a Christian, on his death bed.
ReplyDeleteOK, here's a little hopeful fantasy: Manson wrote down a bunch of unknown to us information on the crimes and gave it to Graywolf or Purplewolf or whatever the heck their names are, with instructions to reveal it upon his death.
ReplyDeleteNot the most sinister, possibly the most verbose. More mass media than mass murderer, more serial syndication than serial killer. A reflection of viewer's perception. Fortuitous for timing for Snake.
ReplyDeleteR.I.P
ReplyDeleteOnly problem with that Jenn...no one can read his writing😨
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteDon't know what else to say but RIP, I would have liked to have hung around you c.1968 or so
ReplyDeleteNow that Charles Manson has died, I can reveal that the murders were a hit by organized crime.... the "Mafia" or whoever you want to call it forgave Manson and associates' drug debts in exchange for killing LaBianca and Frykowski, who owed thousands for gambling and drugs, respectively. No cult, no race war, no "Helter Skelter". Plain old boring organized crime. Because the killers were hopped up on drugs, they made a huge mess and killed innocent bystanders. So Manson was involved, but not the way most people think. Also, Polanski was involved in filming porn, all of Hollyweird knew it, just like Harvey Weinstein.... Polsnski had Manson procure fot him, but Charles drew the line at using 8 to 12 year old kids. The moral of this story is do not get involved in illegal activities or hang around with people who do. The End.
ReplyDeleteAC Fisher-aldag. Thanks for that.
DeleteWell it's closer to the truth then "Helter Skelter" but the mob usually doesn't kill people that owe large sums of cash. Dead people cant pay
DeleteBlaming the victims for their own deaths, huh? Wow.
ReplyDeleteTwisti g my words. No, I do not blame the families and friends of those doing illegal activities. But people who live "the life" DO bring danger down upon themselves and their loved ones. Also blaming the actual criminals, Tex Watson, Susan Atkins.... who murdered willingly. Remember THEM? You seem to still believe in psychobabble like brainwashing, instead of the killers' free will and intentionsl behavior.
DeleteFirst thing love the blog. Excellent information for someone who knows a lot. Charles Manson is dead. I expected it but felt it wouldn't happen. Many secrets are yet to be uncovered. I am a lurker I guess. I would love to contribute. Peace and love.
ReplyDeleteThanks for "revealing" that amazing theory that's been around forever.
ReplyDeleteIt was around forever as a THEORY. A speculation. A guess. This was an eyewitness account.
DeleteAnd, I do not seem to recall any brilliant theories that Polanskui was a child pornographer, or that Manson was asked to procure for him, and that all Hollywood was aware of it. Has THAT been "around forEVER"???
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteMore appropriate headline would read:
ReplyDelete“Manson Experiences Changes at 83”
Rot mf’er..
Always is always forever.
ReplyDeleteAnother one bites the dust. My only eulogy to him is goodbye and good riddance. The probability that he was ever gong to clearly clarify anything at all about the whole Manson affair was less than remote. To his benefit he is now finally free of prison perhaps for eternity.
ReplyDeleteOr “Manson Comes to Now at 83.”
ReplyDeleteJust watched Fox News report to see how wrong they could get it...besides the Race War theory, Sharon Tate was hogtied and The Family (as they liked to be called) did copious amounts of LSD and Heroin...I think Manson said it himself...one day way after he is gone, he won't even have been a real person...I agree...after the real facts are skewed he'll just be a boogeyman.
ReplyDeleteRIP
ReplyDeleteGood Riddance.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand, if you knew the truth about what happened and this truth would have exonerated Manson, why did you have to wait until he died to reveal it?
ReplyDeleteI wonder how Bruce, Tex, BB, Pat and Leslie feel about this. Indifference? Sadness? Satisfied? I wonder if they think the demise of Charlie will take media attention off the case and help their parole chances? Or if Sandy and Squeaky will hold some private ceremony or if they're actually moved on. So many questions lol.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeletehttp://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/sharon-tates-sister-cried-prayed-for-charles-manson-after-death/ar-BBFjZLM?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=HPDHP17
Ha! Exonerated Manson. That's funny. It would have hotten him killed. He was very proud of "no snitchin' on my jacket" meaning, no testifying against others in his prison files.
ReplyDeleteJohn Seger why do I have a feeling that many people will feel the same come your own passing ignorant fool
ReplyDeleteagreed
DeleteTo Iman28 On the night of the Tate murders they did speed. Just watch any of the many documentaries or docudramas on Mason. They should be showing them all over again on TV. I heard audio of Susan saying she did speed that night with Tex. Many interviews with Susan can also be heard on You Tube.
ReplyDeleteTex and Susan Atkins did. I believe they were the only ones that were high either night.
DeleteDebra, straight to the media. Cha-ching!!!
ReplyDeleteGreat news on a Monday morning.
ReplyDeleteThe loathsome bastard caused so much damage to so many people that it's incalculable. Misery loves company, so Charlie roped as many suckers in to his destructive game because he knew he'd never live long as a free man on the outside. Take people down with you ... that's a thing losers do.
I don't know if Charlie's death provides solace in any way to the families of the victims .... probably not. Hopefully to them this is basically some kind of footnote and nothing more.
This probably bodes well for sales of Dianne Lake's book (which I am reading and very much enjoying, surprisingly) and probably doesn't hurt Leslie's chances for parole either.
Adios, Charlie. You could have done better. Much, much better.
Good riddance to the badass punk, twisted manipulative side of Manson - RIP the little boy who didn't have the best start in life and became institutionalised. Yep, I'm on the fence.
ReplyDeleteCharlie will be resurrected. He is Jesus Christ.
ReplyDeleteFinally... he's dead. And reading/watching the news on the mass media i am still impressed on how they forget about Watson. They say Manson made his followers kill, but the pictures are mostly of the three girls. It's just so strange.
ReplyDeleteAnd so the story goes...
Yes! All the coverage I've seen on the news covering his death that have 'highlighted his story' have been about how he made the girls kill for him. Not one mention or picture of Tex. It's incredible how the bastard escapes the spotlight. So many people I know have never even heard his name.
DeleteHere in kentucky the news is reporting only that Manson died. And about his house he was born up in Ashland, the owner of the house has owned it now for 26 years.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAlex Jones has some interesting comments in the opening remarks to his radio show today.
ReplyDelete"Charlie was inducted into a high-level DARPA mind-control program.... He was CIA, 100%."
Alex claims that Charlie was angry that he was being kicked out of the Hollywood sex-and-satan cult, and was no longer allowed to sell his drugs and hang with the Beautiful People. So "He went and killed their High Priestess(Sharon)."
In that case, he's the only CIA member whose meals came out of dumpsters.
ReplyDeleteSo is Tex next? (sounds like a style of Mexican food) =D
ReplyDeleteWell at least now the MSM won't have Charlie Manson to kick around anymore.
ReplyDeleteFor all those clamoring for a Col comment I say this-
ReplyDeleteAs BUG wanted (although he would hate Charlie outlived him) all the boxes are ticked, whether it be maniacs like AC surfacing or Debra getting a last grab at attention.
Charlie died knowing the motivation but any TLB scholar worth his salt knew he would never give it up.
It is sad to see what could have been a good life literally wasted.
I wish I could say that some people who do know (Tex, Bryn, Gregg) would now step up and be heard but I really don't think so.
TLB SCHOLARS- work harder, now more than ever
Speaking of manipulative, abusive media moguls....
DeletePlease, for the sake of history, name three people clamoring for a Col comment. And for bonus points name one awaiting the egomaniacal Saint's sanctimonious proclamation that he will bless us with one final summary of his incredibly banal insights.
ReplyDeleteAnd by all means Col, let's use this occasion to extol all to work harder to discover the truth about tragic events that occurred fifty years ago and that maybe 47 people give a flying tu rd about now. Yes...more effort all so you can claim right and your arch-foe the Bug be vilified.
You're a pathetic cartoon.
Charlie was a charismatic nobody who died surrounded by folk either hated him or couldn't care less about him.
Just desert...as they say.
Or dessert, either one. Charlie preferred desert.
ReplyDeleteColScott,
ReplyDeleteAs far as:
"some people who do know"
I agree with you:
And ColScott you say
"but I really don't think so"
Yes, but it goes a lot farther,
so to speak,than that (motivation).
And so you ColScott, and everyone else knows, the "Group" that I have commented about on this blog, is
NOT
the Straight Satans.
Mario George Nitrini 111
------
The OJ Simpson Case
Not that anyone’s clamoring for my thoughts on Manson’s death, but I’ll say it anyway. My view on anyone’s passing is simple. Regardless of fame or significance, was the individual’s existence a net positive or negative for their family/friends and the planet? In the case of Manson, I’ll go out on a limb and say negative. That old con left a lot of wreckage in his wake. Thanks for indulging me.
ReplyDeleteOr 47 years ago and 50 people giving flying turds, for that matter.
ReplyDeleteWilliam Marshall said "John Seger why do I have a feeling that many people will feel the same come your own passing ignorant fool."
ReplyDeleteWilliam, I have no idea why you have that feeling.
I haven't caused deaths, hatred or ruined any lives.
I think my two word statement sums up how the majority of how most people feel about Manson's passing.
He wasn't some misunderstood hero that you are seeming to feel the need to defend his honor.
Charles Manson was a hateful, vengeful, manipulative, hateful man.
He and his crew were responsible for a really nasty murder spree.
He wasn't a nice guy.
People magazine is reporting That Manson did not have any relatives or next of kin on file with the prison meaning that his body would likely be left with the state. However relatives do have 10 days from the time of death to claim the body. After the 10 days if no family comes forward the state will assume responsibility.
ReplyDeletehttp://people.com/crime/charles-manson-body-no-known-relatives-in-prison/
... And the LA Times goes there.
ReplyDeleteThe Human Side of Charlie Manson
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-ulin-manson-death-20171120-story.html
Hello everyone. I hope everyone is right as rain. Charlie's dead. Wow, I don't know what to think at this juncture. Did he take truth with him or do others hold pieces to what we are striving to figure out... who even cares anymore. Should we even care anymore.. do any of us do what we should...
DeleteBut much love to everyone and keep searching for truth but expect vague lies.
Cats
Hey Cats! The recent book Now is the only thing that's Real by Neil Sanders name checks truthontate in the text and bibliography. Thought you might like to know. Good to hear from you.
DeleteThanks Christopher. Must buy the book. He was interviewed by Ed Opperman awhile back.
DeleteI spent yesterday evening with a friend who has a tenuous connection to the Manson story: She spent some time with Bobby Beausoleil in the Haight. But we didn’t talk about Bobby last night; we talked about David Cassidy, also her friend, who is on his deathbed. She describes David as a self-depreciating man with an open heart. Talking to her, I became so sad for David’s deteriorating health and his family.
ReplyDeleteDuring the evening, I found out about CM’s death, who’s been a much bigger part of my life than David Cassidy, and I cried. Even though my friend knows about my involvement with this blog, I’m sure she thought I was crying about David and I didn’t say otherwise. I excused myself to the restroom for a while, confused about why I was crying for the “mean” guy.
Later at home I couldn’t stop crying. I was up most of the night, trying to understand why I’m so sad that Charles Manson is dead. I do not support CM, I think he is a sociopath, a murderer, and deserved every sentence he received.
But now, although my eyes are still red, I get it: If CM was given truth serum on his deathbed, I think he would have said, “There was no motive. Everyone just made me mad.” My opinion is he never gave a shit. My tears are for all that is lost because of that:
- For the unborn baby who never got to live.
- For Steven Parent and the others at Cielo Drive.
- For the LaBiancas, who were called the “middle-aged couple.” (Who is God’s name is middle-aged in their early 40s?!)
- For Shorty Shea who’s Jesus-loving, real killer has never, ever admitted to doing a damn thing.
- For Gary Hinman, a friend.
My love to the families of the victims.
Rob King, count me as one who was clamoring to hear from Col and wants to hear from Saint.
It's Cats!!!
ReplyDeletePerhaps it's Memorex... hey Zelda!
DeleteI am curious to know if anyone involved with The Manson family blog, requested permission to a meet with Charles Manson in prison? I understand the process was Highly selective, and usually he said no, but it was up to him. I could be wrong about that. Now, that he's dead it seems more reasonable to ask the question, as it will not encourage anyone to try to meet with him.
ReplyDeleteGeorge met with him over 200 times if Patty remembers correctly
DeleteI wrote this a while back, and for what it is worth I'll share it again. For what it's worth....
ReplyDeleteThe saga of the Family is a mad, wayward story that fulfilled no other purpose than to magnify the notoriety of Charles Manson. Looking at the facts in the cold light of day, everything Charles Manson set out to achieve failed dismally. Music, relationships, crime, putative attempts at world domination – all ended in abject catastrophe. While there are still many people who would wish to elevate him to near deity status, the fact remains that Manson achieved little other than carnage. If he did succeed in sending America a wake-up call, it was by chance – a by-product of the wreckage that built up around him. Others with similarly fractured childhoods have gone on to forge great and extraordinary futures for themselves. Charles Manson’s inability to rise above the knocks and the barbs of life prompts little sympathy.
The great irony is that the optimism and boundless love of the 1960s was responsible for allowing Manson a voice in the first place. That really is the sad, fascinating truth at the heart of Manson and the Family’s story.
Love back at ya Cats! x
ReplyDeleteMust natter soon. X
Delete
ReplyDelete"Manson achieved little other than carnage."
How many people can claim they killed an entire decade? Charlie probably at this point has bigger name and facial recognition than any of the individual Beatles. Bigger than 98% of all the Hollywood stars ever in existence. Not bad for a half-assed nothing!
Of course all the publicity is negative, but in the town where he made his bones it is said there is no such thing as negative publicity. And if you want to blame somebody, where would Charlie be without the entertainment industry, which has squeezed that po' boy for all he's worth for the past 50 years?
Forget it, Jake, it's Hollywood.
Welcome back, Cats.
ReplyDeleteAC Fisher, your theory is interesting and certainly possible. Except for one thing: I grew up in Brooklyn and know a little about the Mafia. I don't think it "outsources" its "work." And if it did, why would it pick Manson and his crew for these murders?
ReplyDeleteI don't know if it was "Mafia" per se, but organized crime outsources all the dang time, to motorcycle clubs and common street gangs. I do not see any Cosa Nostra in $1K suits selling product, nor sullying their Brooks Brothers with debtor blood; instead I see Mexican Mafia (who are not really Mafia atall), Crips and Bloods, and Red and White who are not all right. Manson connected with the bigwigs in prison. He was merely the procurer. Mr. Watson, not Sherlock, did the deed.
DeleteWe miss you Cats
ReplyDeleteWell if everyone else is coming out of the woodwork then so am I. And for the record, I too welcome the Col's contributions and insight although he may not reciprocate.
ReplyDeleteAnd good to see Cats again too ... blast from the past.
Greetings to all from Patagonia
Jem
Wow cats AND jempud! Crazy!
ReplyDeleteMs CarolMR
ReplyDeleteACFisher made this statement here:
Another article by Paul Krassner - Manson Family Photos - Manson Family Today ...
www.mansonblog.com › 2011/06 › anot...
Jun 2, 2011 ·
"Adam, mobsters DO subcontract out hits to 1% motorcycle clubs. And the Mafia ... You are Charles Manson. It is August"
Outsourcing it's work?
Mario George Nitrini 111
-------
The OJ Simpson Case
This couldn't come at a better time for Leslie.
ReplyDeleteI was actually thinking that all of this attention couldn't possibly help Leslie right now. It's like Charlie skrews her over one more time on the way out the door.
ReplyDeleteHere is the official CDC press release:
ReplyDeleteCORCORAN – Inmate Charles Manson, 83, died of natural causes at 8:13 p.m. on Sunday, November 19, 2017, at a Kern County hospital.
Inmate Manson was admitted to state prison from Los Angeles County on April 22, 1971, for seven counts of first-degree murder and one count of conspiracy to commit murder for the August 1969 deaths of Abigail Ann Folger, Wojciech Frykowski, Steven Earl Parent, Sharon Tate Polanski who was eight months pregnant, Jay Sebring, Leno La Bianca and Rosemary La Bianca.
On December 13, 1971, Manson received a first-degree murder conviction from Los Angeles County for the July 25, 1969, death of Gary Hinman and another first-degree murder conviction for the August 1969 death of Donald Shea.
Inmate Manson was originally sentenced to death. In 1972, the Superior Court of California in the County of Los Angeles vacated and set aside the death penalty pursuant to People v. Anderson (1972). The decision caused all capital sentences in California to be commuted to life in prison. Manson’s death sentence was modified to life on February 2, 1977. California did not have the life-without-parole sentence at the time.
California inmates who receive a sentence of life with the possibility of parole are entitled to parole consideration hearings after serving the legally required minimum term. Inmate Manson had been denied parole 12 times between November 16, 1978, and April 11, 2012; the last parole hearing he attended was March 27, 1997. He was not eligible to have another parole hearing until 2027.
Inmate Manson had been housed in the Protective Housing Unit at California State Prison-Corcoran since 1989. The unit houses inmates whose safety would be endangered by general population housing. He had also been housed at San Quentin State Prison, California Medical Facility, Folsom State Prison and Pelican Bay State Prison.
DebS said...
ReplyDeletePeople magazine is reporting That Manson did not have any relatives or next of kin on file with the prison meaning that his body would likely be left with the state. However relatives do have 10 days from the time of death to claim the body. After the 10 days if no family comes forward the state will assume responsibility.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
TY for this, Deb. Will anyone bother? There's bound to be some ghouls wanting to fight over whatever meager belongings a doddering ex-hippy inmate had. Maybe his supposed son Matthew Roberts has a claim. It's curious he never signed anything over to Grey Wolf or whoever it is that officiated his various hangers-on. Maybe he knew the circus they'd likely make out of his funeral after his death... or maybe your physical form just don't matter none.
A.C. Fisher-Aldag said...
ReplyDelete"Polsnski had Manson procure fot him, but Charles drew the line at using 8 to 12 year old kids."
Care to provide any evidence?
Sorry, none but hearsay from the horse's mouth.
DeleteIt is weird that moment when someone dies and you realize they won't be coming back. My initial feeling is that by dying he loses power in my mind and becomes just like the rest of us, death being the "great equalizer." Everything he did in his life will lose significance as the march of time wipes away the memory of it. For most of the public he is some kind of icon, and "Helter Skelter" is a well known tale, but they may only have a vague idea of the details or of Manson as a man. And now for a day or a week it is one of the big stories people hear about and some may not even have been aware he was still alive. The mainstream media presents the story in a generic way that grates on Mansonbloggers and gets details wrong, even small ones like saying Melcher was renting his house to Polanski. They must do that with just about every story so that unless you're into that subject you wouldn't know the difference.
ReplyDeleteI sort of go along with Kevin Marx saying "Good riddance to the badass punk, twisted manipulative side of Manson - RIP the little boy who didn't have the best start in life and became institutionalised." And I would add the little boy who learned from his Uncle and others not to cry, not to be vulnerable. I wonder if he felt vulnerability toward people such as Lynette who felt such a sense of love from him and still believe so much in him.
Perfect sentiment. I also feel for Manson as a boy. Foster homes or boys schools leave you with a bit of detachment. He obviously was very bright and one could imagine what he could have been. But we all make choices that change our lives and in some cases, history. I think his signicance in the years to come will fade, and he will be a foot note in murder history. For those of us growing up during that time, it's a horror story, a living nightmare. Kids today don't really know or care who he is. I wonder what the other convicted are thinking and if anyone will interview them.
DeleteWe can hate him, love him or sit somewhere in between... but like it or not we ALL owe Mr M. a big thanks for the hours & hours of endless entertainment we've enjoyed over the years obsessing over this case. Vale Charlie.
ReplyDeleteOn a completely different note, it's a real pleasure to see Cats & Jempud again.
I actually thought this was my post for a second until i saw brownrice as the poster. This is my sentiment exactly, love or hate Manson et al, he has certainly kept a lot of us entertained through books, interviews, documentaries and so on for 50 years and for that i say thankyou Charlie.
DeleteHe should never have been convicted of 1st degree murder, my thinking is if you tell somebody to jump off a cliff and they do it, are you guilt of 1st degree murder? If your called charlie manson then the answer would be yes
It obviously didn't really matter to Charlie. He knew it didn't matter what he said; he was going to rot away in jail the rest of his life( which frankly he probably deserved), I just kind of leaped into this world 10 months ago and I'm noticing certain doors are shutting very fast. Granted, they're ones that would probably never have been opened anyways,but that's besides the point: time is running out. The truth was there, but Charlie's passing is a harsh reminder that like everything else it's dissipating. Nobody gives a shit about a "filthy commune" from the sixties anymore. I wonder how Mary felt when she found out
ReplyDeleteCats,Simon and Ducky...just like old times.....good on ya Chuck.
ReplyDeleteSurely someone will claim his ashes and at least scatter them at Spahn and Death Valley.....without a Media Circus.
Saw this last night- Bryan Cranston recalls meeting Manson as a lad while horseback riding at Spahn Ranch in 1968. I don’t pretend to have the knowledge that most of you have about the case, but seems like there are details that Cranston provides that I’m not sure jive with reality.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2017/11/20/bryan-cranston-recalls-close-encounter-with-charles-manson-in-his-youth.html
Rip uncle Charlie. Kinda wish you woulda left some final Charlie message.
ReplyDeleteWhat in the hell did an innocent pregnant woman have to do with organized crime? How about a teenage boy driving along in his car, minding his own business? What about Gary Hinman & Donald Shea? Those were "hits" too? Also, why didn't they just shoot the victims, instead of making them suffer even more by taunting them before death, then STABBING them? I'm sorry, but I call complete BS on that ridiculous theory. I hope CM will rest in peace & all, but he was not innocent of demanding those murders.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunate collateral damage. You think criminals doing drive-by shootings say, "Careful, don't accidentally shoot a toddler?" Do terrorists say, "Watch it, don't accidentally bomb any pregnant ladies"? The fact that the hit was done by a bunch of selfish druggies added to the mess.
DeleteAnd yes, Hinman was about drug money owed. Shea was viewed as a witness who could testify against the killers.
DeleteYou are acting as if criminal dope fiend losers think rationally and plan their actions with wisdom and insight.
It's amazing that the Mafia just happened to need someone to kill someone that lived in Terry Melcher's old house and at the same time someone who lived in the house next door to Harold True. And then the good luck of finding Charlie to outsource it to, since he was familiar with both those places. Talk about serendipity.
ReplyDeleteIt just goes to show you that it really is a small world.
I'm in awe, Peter...
ReplyDeleteApparently his grandson, Jason Freeman, will attempt to receive Charlie's body in order to give him a proper burial.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/charles-manson-grandson-hopes-give-proper-burial-article-1.3647218
I was also one who was looking forward to reading Col's thoughts regarding Charlie's passing, as well as Saint's.
Ok, it's time Manson Family Blog declare themselves family of Charlie and collect his ashes and all his stuff plus any cash laying around. How much would his ashes be worth ?
ReplyDeleteHow about a central Charlie & Co. museum like Aes-Nihil or maybe Stoner Van Houten have already started ? A depository and shrine for the Manson Family Blog annual tour to visit and for others of a worshipping nature.
Incidentally the thing that keeps grating over me the most when the media discusses anything Manson including this latest is when they call them 'hippies'. At least have the gumption by now to call them what they really were, among other things, as allegedly coined by Sandy .... 'slippies'.
Most people don't know or care about Manson ? Most Americans can't tell you who's buried in Grant's tomb either. In fact most Americans don't know who Grant was. When it comes to history and geography, most Americans don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. But my experience is most Americans, even millennials, have 'heard' of Manson. And he most definitely will live forever for those crime hobbyists much like Hitler for WWII enthusiasts.
Just rambling again here ....
To meet with Mason in prison or otherwise would have been like meeting a historical figure in real life, but when he was alive, I could not say this. I had the feeling that young people who could be influenced would meet him and be influenced maybe in a negative way to either do something dangerous or wrong or would just end up feeling bad and upset by the experience. In other words, Manson may be harmful to one's mental health.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the link, Joe Col. Very spooky video!
ReplyDeleteThe article says that Jay White was the only son of Manson's. Given that he had two other sons, that could complicate matters. It will be interesting to watch it shake out.
On Twitter half of the people thought Marilyn Manson had died and they other half were using him to make comments about politics. Most of them think he killed Sharon Tate and call him a serial killer. They assume that Manson went to the locations and helped and told them on how to kill the victims, but people don't really want to look into Manson very far. I know I did not look into Manson myself for many years, because it was too upsetting to think about Sharon Tate and the others killed. I was also fooled into thinking that Leslie helped kill Sharon Tate, but she was not even there that night. I can't believe I spend so many years believing wrong facts. When one looks at the photos of the three girls with the shaved heads, it seems like all of them were there to kill at all once with Manson present, because why else would they have supported him throughout the trail? Normally people turn on each other and say, that they were not present at a murder and they to find an alibi and blame each other.
ReplyDeleteI would think that Squeeky or Brenda or any of them could collect his body and if they said "sorry, only family members are entitled," they could argue "hey, the state spent nine months convincing a jury we were a "Family," now cough up.
ReplyDeleteI, for one, am not sorry to hear of his death. In my opinion, Charlie's adult life was all about using people to get by in life. He was a pimp and the women in the family were common whores and laborers, used to bring others into the family, settle debts, and tend to the chores. Charlie's biggest ambition was to be famous, and he achieved that goal by involving his minions in the murder of wealthy, well-known white people.
ReplyDeleteI thought of RH when I first heard of Charlie's death. I wonder if the two of them had a chance to talk as Charlie moved though the tunnel towards eternal damnation. If so, I hope RH got the answers to the questions y'all have talked about over the years.
Two things bug me about Ace’s recent comeback comments. In the unlikely event that either of the two multiple killings were at the behest of the Mafia (the Cosa Nostra, Mexicans, street gangs or whatever other mafiosos), one has to seriously consider why –out of all the criminals for hire in California– the contractors would alight on a capricious, unpredictable loser like Charlie to do the deed. If you want a hit carried out surely you go to a professional – not least for your own protection should the mechanic betray you (as Susan Atkins seems to have done).
ReplyDeleteAs for the constantly repeated claims that Polanski traded in child porn: yes, and no. First you have to remember the age at which a young person ceases to be a child in the eyes of the law can be as high as 18/21 in some jurisdictions. In others, such as Canada, it can be as low as 12. So any photographic evidence of sex an adult male might have had with an under 18 or under 21 partner could be classified as child porn in some places.
And these were different times. Jerry Lee Lewis and Chuck Berry were openly consorting with pre-teens. In the UK Bill Wyman of the Stones was openly cohabiting with a thirteen-year-old. And the 33 year-old Manson was not only having sex with under aged Dianne Lake and Ruth Morehouse (and others) but was also knocking them about. Yet despite all we hear about CM we don’t often hear of him being described as guilty of sexual relations with a minor.
From sex with 13+ girls in the permissive 60s to the idea that Polanski was procuring 8-12 year olds to make pornographic movies is quite a jump. Unless Ace can show otherwise I submit that there is not a shred of evidence to support this idea (I hesitate to call it a theory as a theory is required to be consistent with method, and I see no method). Furthermore, as is the case with the famed porn movies alleged to have been shot by/of/with Family members, given the capitalist imperative that governs such things it is unlikely that such movies would not have surfaced in the same shady way that porn clips of Barbra Streisand and Sly Stallone have.
Finally, and apologies for my prolixity, may I too join in the swell of those who are always happy to see what the Col has to say (not to be confused with the way he often chooses to say it) and to see oldies but goldies like Cats and Jem making unexpected but welcome appearances.
One positive bit out of CM's passing is seeing all the great old hands return to this Spahn Ranch of the internet. Cats, Jem, hell even the Col! Cats, is there any hope of transitioning some of that great material from your old site to some repository somewhere? Maybe this site, or the Col's place or some type of wayback machine? Some of that stuff was really great.
ReplyDeleteAce.. give it up. You know very little of what you post about. You ain't in the "underworld". Don't care how many murderers you get "hand fasted" to.
Charles big lesson was don't snitch, right? Well, the big lesson of the Manson saga is get in the front seat of the snitch bus as fast as you can. DeCarlo, Snake, even Linda K came out a lot better than the true Manson Crew Members. Snitching clearly has a fat and sassy future, unlike the dreary road of life in prison in PC that Charlie lead.
Oh, darn, now I must forthwith remove "thug" from my resume.
DeleteManson's grandson hopes to give his grandfather a proper burial.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/charles-manson-grandson-hopes-give-proper-burial-article-1.3647218
Ace says:
ReplyDelete• I can reveal that the murders were a hit by organized crime
• Polanski was involved in filming porn, all of Hollyweird knew it
• Polsnski (sic) had Manson procure fot (sic) him, but Charles drew the line at using 8 to 12 year old kids
• Hinman was about drug money owed
• Shea was viewed as a witness who could testify against the killers.
Assertions of this kind cannot be believed simply because someone says so. I invite her to substantiate these claims if she wants us to treat them with any seriousness.
FrankM
Thank you all for your kindness - it is much appreciated.
ReplyDeleteChristopher- talked with Neil Sanders. A fine chap.
Shorty's pistols- we may get the band together for a new world tour. We have been practicing for awhile now, and should be hitting the road shortly.
Love to all and thanks again.
I heard they went to Hinman's to get money, but was the money owed? I don't have any sense of that. I think if he had money he would have given it to them, but he did not have any to give them. But Mason believed Hinman had money, and was holding out.
ReplyDeleteMacy, my opinion is that it was a botched extortion/robbery. Apparently they thought he had inherited money. I'm with you though, if he DID have it he likely would have coughed it up after having his ear and face sliced.
ReplyDeleteMatt was the Hinman inheritance motive first introduced by DeCarlo in an attempt to get out of jail free?
ReplyDeleteYes, I think so. I'd have to look it up though. There's the chance he made it up for that reason but they believed him more than others because he wasn't under Manson's "spell". He "just liked broads"...
ReplyDeleteMust be a tough time for Rosie too. Imagine the emotions? On the one hand, Manson and his friends are blamed for killing Rosies mom, on the other hand, they saved Rosies life.
ReplyDeleteMust be hard.
OMFG crash that was soooo funny. I'm dying here!
ReplyDeleteYeah, Bobby had one card to play at Hinman's place and when Gary didn't back down, Bobby resorted to Charlie and his playbook. Botched extortion ... regardless of what the Family thought they were entitled to of Gary's largesse or not.
ReplyDeleteDidn't one of the girl's resort to Manson without Bob's knowledge by phoning him?
DeleteCrash ... as you know, no sense makes sense.
ReplyDeleteElla Bailey, in her recorded police interview said everyone knew about Gary Hinman, and someone suggested he had come into some money. They were sitting around, trying to brainstorm ideas on how to get money. I don't think that inheritance idea came from Danny DeCarlo only.
ReplyDeleteStarviego wrote:
ReplyDelete"How many people can claim they killed an entire decade? Charlie probably at this point has bigger name and facial recognition than any of the individual Beatles. Bigger than 98% of all the Hollywood stars ever in existence. Not bad for a half-assed nothing"
"Not bad" but people paid for it with their lives, so there's that.
A.C. Fisher-Aldag said...
ReplyDeleteYou are acting as if criminal dope fiend losers think rationally and plan their actions with wisdom and insight
You are acting as though "the Mafia" don't.
Now that Charles Manson has died, I can reveal that the murders were a hit by organized crime.... the "Mafia" or whoever you want to call it forgave Manson and associates' drug debts in exchange for killing LaBianca and Frykowski, who owed thousands for gambling and drugs, respectively
As far as I'm concerned, being a keen reader of your stuff and following it back a good ten years or so, you simply have no credibility. Your statement above is, as you pointed out, not new. You've been saying similar for a decade. You've also made a point of making it well known that you were in regular contact with Charlie, that whatever you'd relay publicly is what he told you and that he was incapable of lying.
Well, this is where you fall down hard.
You've relayed so much inaccurate stuff down the years that at least for me, you are impossible to believe. A few examples of many;
"Nixon, when he was still a lowly San Clemente judge. Charles says that he somehow ran afoul of Nixon when the former president was still a San Clemente judge".
"When Charles testified in his own behalf, they cleared the courtroom so he couldn't "mesmerize" the jury."
There actually WAS a ticket; that has been established. The date on the ticket was officially listed as 7 August. It'd be fairly easy to alter the number, especially on a carbon.
Assuming I'm being told the truth-and he HAD to know, if I put this online, that people would attempt to poke holes in it-anyway, assuming it's the truth, the 9th at 3 am is the night after the Tate murders, yes? So he couldn't have run back to LA, cleaned up the murder scene, then hurried off to San Clemente. Through LA traffic.
And assuming it's the night of the LaBianca murders, instead, he couldn't have tied up the LaBiancas at 1 am, run back to the ranch, switched cars from the station wagon to the truck, picked up Stephanie, and ended up near San Clemente at 3 am...
But now, alas, the ticket seems to be missing.
I'm thinking it was the night of the LaBianca murders, and that it was actually the 10th. 3 reasons: 1.) He doesn't do linear time well. 2.) He told me he was not at the LaBiancas, he was, um, having an assignation with a young lady. Which would be the reason for taking a panel truck; and 3.) Why would the ticket disappear, and the cop be reassigned and not testify, if the citation was actually written on the 7th?"
"Debra can choose to accept that her dear sister was involved with drug dealers, was having an affair outside of her monogamous marriage, was using cocaine and amphetamines while she was pregnant...."
"Besides, he has never, ever lied to me."
i] Richard Nixon wasn't a Judge, let alone one that ran into Charles Manson and gave him reason for wanting to settle the score.
ii] Clearing the jury when Charlie spoke in his trial was for his and his co~defendants protection.
iii] The bread truck was out of action after the afternoon/evening of August 8th because Sandy & Mary were booked with it. But not on the 7th when Charlie was ticketed in it.
iv] Proof please, that Sharon was taking heavy drugs while pregnant and having an affair. Sure, could have happened but some proof would be cute.
Read on. There is a method to my madness.....
2/5
ReplyDelete"If it was a big planned conspiracy, how come everyone didn't know everything? How come testimony didn't match, or changed, or was downright wrong... the allegation of beheading & dismemberment, for example?"
"Bobby BeauSoleil says he killed Hinman, with aforementioned dubious female help, and that Charles M. really hadn’t anything to do with it."
"'Supermarket owner', my left tit. I’m willing to bet the farm that LaBianca was the supplier, Hinman and Frykowski the dealers (and Crowe, too) with Charlie W. and pals getting a piece of the action for the bikers, musicians and other assorted pals."
"He continues to maintain that the ticket was in the wee hours of the 9th."
"The young women of Charles's acquaintence were not beaten. Gypsy stated that, but she's lied about other things, as well. Other ladies of his acquaintence say that the rumors of beatings are untrue."
"My source is Charles Manson. He was there. Youse guys were not"
"That young lady was not really named Rosina and her dad was someone famous, perhaps show business, perhaps business-business. It's relevant if you realize that her parents might've been somehow in this mix, too... perhaps blaming Ranch people for her getting caught up."
"What Charles has said is that he was not there at all [the LaBiancas], that he received a traffic ticket that night nearly 100 miles away, that he was with Miss Schram."
"Further, I am told that Susan Atkins was not at the LaBianca's house, as she was dope-sick from pigging out on Frykowski's stash the previous night.
Leslie Van Houten acted as the 'Avon Lady' because she knew Mr. LaBianca. In criminal slang, the 'Avon Lady' is a person known to the victim, who gets the victim to open the door. That is why she was asked along. Her father and the LaBiancas apparently had some connection. I can say this now, as I realize it's not gonna affect her parole....Charles maintains that Leslie's father and Mr. LaBianca knew one another through church or a civic group, and that Leslie was vaguely known to Mr. LaBianca."
i] Charlie was the one that spread the rumours about Shorty being beheaded.
ii] Has Bobby ever said he killed Gary with female help ?
iii] How many people does it take to say Charlie beat or abused them and/or others for you to acknowledge that he did ? Mary ? Sandy ? Stephanie ? Dianne ? Susan ? Gypsy ? Does it matter if witnesses like Linda or Brooks actually witnessed such ?
iv] Rosina isn't...Rosina ? Leslie knew Leno ?
Boogie on, reggae woman.
3/5
ReplyDeleteAC Fisher Aldag once said...
"Dear Bruce Davis:
Isn't it true that you were the 'criminal mastermind' of the so-called family, not Charlie?
Weren't you a relatively big-time drug dealer and involved with a large-ish bike club, as well as a mid-level organized crime group? Weren't you their 'enforcer'? Didn't you kill a bunch of other people, too; murders for which you never got busted? What was the motivation? All them folks couldn't possibly have owed your people money.
Here's my theory: You were too creepy to attract many young women, so you used Charles and his amusing patter to bring in the girls.
You were too cocky to get along with many young men, so you handed out dope like it was candy, and ingratiated yourself with the powerful.
Then you got really out of control, started to enjoy killing just for the pleasure of the deed, not as a simple business arrangement any longer. Your people realized that you were going off the reservation, and cut your sorry a$$ loose.
Toward the end, you seemed to be getting a bit psychotic. Maybe it was the drugs. You became awfully sloppy with subsequent crimes. Not to mention your escape then surrender - likely when the buzz finally wore off. What the heck were you thinking, dude?
And now you're getting out of prison. That Christian schtick really worked for you"
Last I looked, Bruce was still in jail.
4/5
ReplyDelete"The same people that place Charles at the scene also place Susan Atkins at the LaBianca house. Others state that she was back at the Ranch, too sick to move, after ingesting wads of narcotic substances."
"I maintain that drawing down on a criminal kidnapper and rapist, who has captured a white lady, and threatened to kill women, children and old people, is an HEROIC action. Shooting Crowe was BRAVE.....BTW, did any of you happen to notice that although Crowe kidnapped and raped a woman, he walked?
The only justice he ever received was when Charles shot him.....
The lady's name was not Rosina. She was grabbed off the street by Crowe and his men. Two were white, four other than Crowe were black, which is why Charles mistakenly assumed they were part of the Black Panther party.....When Charles arrived, the people stated above were present, all heavily armed. Charles attempted a negotiation, saying he'd cover the debt later. Crowe wasn't having it, and threatened to kill the young woman. She had apparently been raped, judging from blood, being disheveled, torn clothing, etc.....The men advanced on Charles and his crew. TJ was so frightened that he peed in his pants. Tex was also frightened and tried to waffle. The large, heavily armed men moved on them. Charles fired his .22 handgun. He hit Crowe in the stomach, as we know....Tex and TJ fled the scene, as did several of Crowe's men. Charles believed he'd killed Crowe, and threw up out of fear. The young woman said that she would stay with one of the white men, the one who had ties to the Beach Boys, as he stated he would take her to the hospital for treatment of her wounds.....This is the whole story as it was told to me.
Of course, I got the story from Charles."
"As I've said before, Charles's involvement with the killings was knowing some people from prison who had been or were at the time, involved with organized crime. He put them together with various people to do some enforcements, including Tex, who badly wanted to be part of a motorcycle club.....Charles could not possibly have predicted that the enforcements would end in death, including that of bystanders. He should've gotten 18 years for knowledge before and after the fact."
"Mr. Bugliosi offered Charles a deal of 18 months with time served if he would rat out the people behind the enforcement. He refused."
"Charles was incarcerated because the corporations wished to gut the environmental movement, as the executives do not wish to be deprived of their Porsches and yachts, at the expense of a little inconvenience such as undrinkable ground water. Charles was prosecuted for murder in the first place because Mr. Bugliosi was vying for the position of governor and chief big d*ck of the state of California, and needed a pulpit to pound
"Charles maintains that he was not at the LaBianca house... he states that he received a traffic ticket, that night, miles away."
ReplyDelete5/5
"Helter Skelter was Susan's invention, the White Album was hers, she came up with most of the rhetoric about it...."Helter Skelter" and a lot of the doomsday stuff came from Susan. You must remember, a group of people were sitting around talking about things... not Charles lecturing everyone and them hanging on his every word.
Some of the young ladies, such as Brenda and Gypsy, were very revolutionary, talking about the downfall of society.
Charles came up with some of the race riot stuff, since prisoners of African descent were talking heavily about the "Black Power" movement of the time, and also due to the Crowe incident. At that time, many people believed there was gonna be a massive racial uprising... including members of the American government.
However, Charles isn't particularly racist... he was simply quoting what black prisoners had stated in his presence."
i] Whoever placed Susan inside the LaBiancas ? Equally, who has ever said she wasn't along the 2nd night because she was sick due to the drugs supposedly taken from Cielo ?
ii]"Rosina" kidnapped off the streets by 7 of Crowe's guys but stays with one after ? Tex was along ? Even when Charlie has told George Stimson he had run away ? It is of such significance that he says it twice, in 2 different places. TJ ran away ?
iii] Susan invented "Helter Skelter" ?
You frequently spoke of cover ups. Charlie could have mentioned half the stuff you claim he told you without ever mentioning the Mafia.
A.C. Fisher-Aldag said...
ReplyDeleteSorry, none but hearsay from the horse's mouth
You know, you've spoken much over the years about how the system, the establishment, the media, the powers that be, have portrayed Charlie as this mesmerizing guy with power to persuade and "brainwash" but in reality, you've been among the foremost exponents of this. It's ironic to extremes that you should be on the same bank of the river as those you've endlessly criticized over the years. You actually embody what that lot and the many hacks that lazily write about the case point at in Charles Manson. You say he's never lied to you and that you got all your info from him, yet, in the case of the LaBiancas {just one example ~ I could go on}, he "told" Emmons that he was there. Even if you hold his book as you do, to be, in your words, "in more rich and vivacious terminology, 'A pack of F-ing lies!'" he told the same thing to Vanity Fair, to George Stimson and to Rolling Stone. Your credibility is predicated on the fact you claim he told you he was not there but at least 100 miles away in a bread truck ~ that was being held by the Police at the time. But you won't accept that you were lied to ~ you simply wriggle.
Sound familiar ?
One is left with the conclusion that either you are lying your blaggers off {for whatever reason} or that you've been lied to and conned, the latter being basically no different to what the aforementioned have been pointing at for the best part of half a century. And this is all before we even get to how what you say contradicts what George Stimson and Nicholas Shreck, who also had Charlie's ear for many a year, said. You made a lot of noise about how Charlie's co~defendants' stories didn't match which you took to be proof of their lies and there being no conspiracy, yet here we have 3 people who had Charlie's ear for a number of years doing the same. And the same happens with Bobby and Charlie's accounts of the Hinman murder. They don't match in crucial places where they need to.
Perhaps I'm just what a cousin of mine called me back when I was 16 ~ cynical. But when I see history repeat itself so clearly and vividly with the same person as the fulcrum, I, for one, approach with more than an eyebrow raised.
Either which way, I simply don't believe you and I actually have for a long time weighed up the facts.
It's possible. 'Tis also possible that I misinterpreted "apples & pears = stairs" rhyming slang, mixed with prison slang, street slang, poetry, riddles, confusion of elderhood, song lyrics, and shamanic-style free association. Or it's possible it is true, and that you noble, edjacated scholars are not in possession of all the facts.
DeleteAs for brainwashing, I was mesmerized into helping decommission a nuke plant (RIP Palisades 2020) and funding a non-profit. That didn't require research, effort, lobbying, skill, or free will... just psyyyyychic mesmerism. Woo, woo!
Starviego said...
ReplyDeleteHow many people can claim they killed an entire decade?
You certainly possess a flair for hyperbole but I must ask, how one kills a decade ? Many of the pathways that began to be opened up in the 60s {which actually had their roots in the 50s, 40s and 20s} flourished and continue to the present day, regardless of whether one thinks they have turned out to be good or bad for various societies. Without a doubt, Charlie and his troupe represented the darker side of the 60s but so did many others, including branches of government, movies and the music biz. To call him the man that killed the 60s actually takes away responsibility from many of those that didn't exactly help life along for many others in the decade. And it's a rather lame, if catchy, epithet.
It's also not true.
christopher butche said...
was the Hinman inheritance motive first introduced by DeCarlo in an attempt to get out of jail free?
Well, considering DeCarlo didn't tell Police about this until November '69 one has to ask where Kitty Lutesinger got the info to tell Police on Oct 12 that she'd heard Charlie had sent Bobby and Susan to his house to get some money from Gary and how, the following day {the 13th} Susan Atkins told the same two cops, Whitley {or Whiteley !} and Guenther that she'd been sent to Gary's house "to get some money he'd supposedly inherited." It was that conversation that settled Susan's hash; after this, she was booked on suspicion of murder. Apparently, what got Susan blabbing to the Police was them kind of hinting {according to Jerry LeBlanc and Ivor Davis} that Bobby had implicated her in the crime.
I find it interesting that both "Five to die" {which goes into a lot more detail but which, because it was written pre~trial, shows its inaccuracies at times, understandably though} and "Helter Skelter" record this episode virtually identically, especially given that Bugliosi was to diss "Five to die" in his tome as a "quickie paperback" that he said didn't include much of what he was to know through the likes of Paul Watkins, Brooks Poston & Juan Flynn.
Peter said...
amazing that the Mafia just happened to need someone to kill someone that lived in Melcher's old house and at the same time someone who lived in the house next door to Harold True. And then the good luck of finding Charlie to outsource it to, since he was familiar with both those places. Talk about serendipity
Innit ! Who needs skill, brains, ambition, the reputation for ruthlessness and sheer heartless disregard for the lives of others when you can rely on the stars to align and bring such fortune ?
jempud said...
Well if everyone else is coming out of the woodwork then so am I
Jemima Puddleduck {A name I still use as a code for a wee} always reminds me of being a reading kid in the 60s....before it got killed ! 😆
Cheers Grim. That new Sanders book said it was DeCarlo and didn't mention Kitty.
DeleteAustinAnn74 said...
ReplyDelete"Ella Bailey, in her recorded police interview said everyone knew about Gary Hinman, and someone suggested he had come into some money."
I thought it was Ella Jo who suggested Gary had the money? Or was it just 'someone?'
Well, rumor was that the certain "someone" was, indeed Ella Jo Bailey. She didn't admit that, though. Who really knows. I have always believed, however that Gary Hinman's murder was the result of a botched extortion/robbery as Matt said. Bobby Beausoleil, in his idiotic attempt to make himself look less culpable in front of various parole boards suggested it was a failed drug deal. His plan to shift a bit of the blame to his victim backfired though. He killed Gary, simply because he didn't want him telling the cops what they had done. He was scared of going to jail. Gee. . .
Delete
ReplyDeletegrimtraveller said...
"iii] How many people does it take to say Charlie beat or abused them and/or others for you to acknowledge that he did ? Mary ? Sandy ? Stephanie ? Dianne ? Susan ? Gypsy ? Does it matter if witnesses like Linda or Brooks actually witnessed such ?"
Tex might disagree:
http://www.mansondirect.com/twatson.html
I don’t remember Manson ever physically abusing the girls.
I believe that after the Crowe incident, that the word got out that Manson and/or his people could do this type of thing on demand. Since Manson became increasingly interested in amassing cash as we know, these were probably hits for hire, but not by organized crime. My opinion is that the true sponsors were close to the victims.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteAs far as Manson killing the '60s goes, I like BB's take on the subject:
http://murdersofaugust69.freeforums.net/thread/491/seconds-magazine-1998-9
INTERVIEWS WITH BOBBY BEAUSOLEIL 1998-9 By Michael Moynihan for Seconds Magazine
Q: These people had been freaked out about the entire youth culture for years, and aside from maybe a few drug casualties or a few minor incidents, they didn't have anything which they could really trot out in order to show how terrible this all was—and now they did.
A: Well, exactly. They were looking for that thing that could be used to hurt the movement, or to put it to bed, to rest—to kill it essentially. They wanted to kill the youth movement, and the Manson cases were ideally suited for that. If any one event can be said to represent the end of the counter-culture movement, it was that event. It was used as a tombstone, in a social context. It marks where the youth movement of the '60s was buried. It's really a tragic thing.
So you are correct, Grim, when you say Manson didn't do it alone; he was in fact just the tool--a tool wielded by others.
Monday's Inside Edition featured a short blurb about Ava Roosevelt. I had not heard the story about how her faulty Rolls Royce helped save her from becoming another victim that night. I know other people claim that they should've been there that night as well.
ReplyDeleteI think it's kind of comical that Charlie's passing is lumped together with a spate of celebrity deaths: Malcom Young, Mel Tillis, Charlie, Della Reese and David Cassidy. It's a wacky mix and makes for a confusing jam session in Rock and Roll Heaven.
ReplyDeleteI just knew Grim was sitting on a big one.
"Charlie we're in HELL, man!"
"I know, ain't it GROOVY!"
Charlie killed the 60s and then Altamont stabbed it after it was dead.
ReplyDeleteCharlie really knew how to talk I could see why all those young people where impressed with him what I do not understand is how the ones that did murder could be so cruel and not have compassion for all the victims.Without Charle some of them would most likely never been involved in murder.I think Charles movtive was all that is said but also just to get back on society and a way to keep the family together.
ReplyDeleteElla Jo Bailey's testimony at Manson's Hinman/Shea trial. Pages 5061-66.
ReplyDeleteMR. MANZELLA: Miss Baily, are we talking about one statement or more than one statement now?
A: We are talking about one statement now.
Q: All right,. And it was made at the camp site in Devil's Canyon.
A: Yes
Q: And it was made in the latter half of July, 1969?
A: That's right.
...
WITNESS: Mr. Manson said that, "We need money to get our stuff together, supplies and our dune buggies, to go out to the desert, because we have been spotted at the camp site by the Fire Patrol."
MR. MANZELLA: Now, was -- during this conversation, or during these statements made by Mr. Manson, were any names mentioned other than names of Family members?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And what names were mentioned?
...
A: Gary Hinman's name was mentioned, and also Terry Melcher.
...
THE WITNESS: Charlie Manson asked, "Is there anyone that you know of that has money, that we could get for our cause, to go to the desert?"
THE COURT: The question was concerning Gary Hinman. What was said concerning Gary Hinman? What do you remember of that cconversation?
THE WITNESS: It was stated that he owned his house in Topanga Canyon --
THE COURT: Now, who state that?
THE WITNESS: Myself.
THE COURT: Mr. Mansella?
MR. MANZELLA: Yes, your Honor.
Q: Miss Baily, would you tell us what you said in that regard?
A: I said, "I understand Gary Hinman owns his house in Topanga Canyon." I also stated that I believed that he had stocks and bonds.
Ella didn't admit in the recorded police interview that she is the one who suggested Gary. Or, hell, maybe she did. I really don't remember.
ReplyDeleteNo she does not. But that isn't really discussed on the existing tape. Mostly they talk about what happened after. But they do indicate that there may have been an earlier conversation the day before that apparently was not recorded.
ReplyDeletePeter said...
ReplyDeleteCharlie killed the 60s and then Altamont stabbed it after it was dead.
Perhaps... in the USA but not anywhere else. In the UK, Europe & Oztralia, "the 60s" (or the "youth movement" or "the counter culture" or the"psychedelic revolution" or any other name that "the 60s" serves as a generic label for) kept right on trucking into the mid-to-late 70s. Shit, Oztralia didn't even really HAVE a 60s until the 70s :-) Interestingly enough, the major event that all these places shared was that the "death of the 60s" pretty much immediately followed the election of a repressive, right-wing government... Nixon in America, Thatcher in the UK & Fraser in Oz. Cultural hegemony ensures that most people miss that point.
starviego said...
ReplyDeleteTex might disagree:
http://www.mansondirect.com/twatson.html
I don’t remember Manson ever physically abusing the girls
So what if he doesn't remember ? Enough people did. The Family had been together a year before Tex showed up. He lived at Dennis Wilson's but wasn't exactly a member. Then he lived with Ouisch's Dad in a tent down at Spahn for a while, away from everyone else. And he was gone for 3 months at the start of '69. He spent time working on Dune buggies where his attention was diverted. He was strung out a lot and for all he knows, someone could have taken a Charlie clattering the day Tex was crawling around on his hands and knees beeping at kids. And he wasn't arrested at either the Spahn or Barker raids. Did they not happen because Tex doesn't remember them ? 😉
Mr. Humphrat said...
ReplyDeleteI think it's kind of comical that Charlie's passing is lumped together with a spate of celebrity deaths: Malcolm Young, Mel Tillis, Charlie, Della Reese and David Cassidy
And don't forget Rodney Bewes !
I saw AC/DC live back in '82 and you couldn't hear the bass. Malcolm and Angus were so loud but it was one heck of a band. After that gig I couldn't hear properly for nearly 36 hours ~ and I had a job interview 12 hours after ! Needless to say, I didn't get the job.
David Cassidy I also remember very well. He was huge in England around 1972/73 and I really enjoyed "The Partridge Family." I think I liked it before I knew who Cassidy was. My sister and her gorgeous friends were gaga for him and, now I come to think of it, David Essex. Even now, the chorus of "Rock me baby" I always sing as "Iraq me, baby." His autobiography is actually really sad.
christopher butche said...
That new Sanders book said it was DeCarlo and didn't mention Kitty
Manson Mythos used to push that line in his various guises. He pushed it so much that I got curious and looked at it and the dates made for interesting reading because although DeCarlo was asked about Hinman's vehicle relatively early on in the investigation, the Police's lead on the inheritance actually came from Susan Atkins. Kitty didn't say it was an inheritance, just money and Susan didn't mention Manson, just that they were sent. Kitty is crucial to the puzzle because that's what got the Police to go and talk to Atkins in the first place. Had it not been for Kitty, Susan may well have been released like most of the others in the Barker raid.
AustinAnn74 said...
Bobby Beausoleil, in his idiotic attempt to make himself look less culpable in front of various parole boards suggested it was a failed drug deal. His plan to shift a bit of the blame to his victim backfired though
The crushing irony is that by telling this story, he makes himself look no better and even more cold blooded because, by his own admission, he had sorted out his "misunderstanding" with Gary. Therefore, it cannot be said to be a death because of drugs.
Tim A. said...
Monday's Inside Edition featured a short blurb about Ava Roosevelt
If I met the Countess, I would have just one word to say to her but it wouldn't be "liar !"
It would be "Ha !"
Grim. Good point about Bobby. In all the excitement about motive there is a tendency to overlook that he reckons he and Hinman had reached a satisfactory conclusion regarding tthe disagreement.
DeleteI was thinking about the popular revenge on showbiz motive for Manson. The shooting of Crowe in front of a friend of Jakobson didn't exactly do him any favours.
Kitty snitching is often overlooked. That leaving Spahn and getting the police involved as she believed Manson was trying to kill her (between Hinman and Tate?) set the ball rolling
Yeah almost every person who was there either experienced or observed physical abuse towards the girls. I grew up in 1990s when there were Manson t shirts being sold in almost every music store. Endless think pieces debunking the “myths” of Charlie as a bad guy. If you first learned about him in the 1990s he was just a misunderstood musician and ecologist who never harmed anyone, and the racism and the idea of Helter Skelter: that was made up by mean old Mr Bugliosi. Plus any bad thing Manson did, like say, tying up the Labiancas which the devious kids talked him into doing when he just wanted to chill and play music on the ranch, was excused by his childhood in prison. Once I started to read accounts from people who actually knew him my views changed. The 1990s conveniently left some things out of the narrative. His physical abuse, the rape, the pimping of children, and stabbing Shorty Shea. Actual quotes from Manson making comments about the looks of women whose lives he’d destroyed, quotes from Manson talking about his dear female friends as things he’d dispose of like discarded toys after he found them disgusting for having the babies that he encouraged. Even the ecology part was bs. I’ve been out to the area around the former ranch, the hills are still littered with old car parts. As for Helter Skelter, whether it was a motive or not, it was something that he was pushing. The audio on the Cielo Drive site from as early as October 1969 is proof that it wasn’t completely made up and it was something people around him bought into to varying degrees. So anyway, a person my age had to research to figure out Charlie was actually an abusive person. He actually. was involved in murders. He hated every woman he ever met. The marketing and myth of Charles Manson in 1990s was ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteNonymous:
DeleteYou couldn't have said that better about Manson. I was a teenager in the early 90s, and I remember walking into a t-shirt shop next to Tower Records in Austin (on the drag) and seeing a Manson t-shirt. The reason I remember that moment, is because I argued with the clerk about that stupid shirt. I knew Manson was a creep way back when I was a little kid. My sister & I saw that made-for-tv Helter Skelter movie back when we were very little. That is how I found out about Manson. I then went to a library a few years later, and got the HS book. He def wasn't a misunderstood counter culture figure. He was a piece of shit, who abused/used everyone he came into contact with. He had an agenda for everyone. The clerk told me to basically piss off after I announced my disgust upon seeing that shirt. Speaking of that old Helter Skelter movie, the part that made me literally nauseated was when the Sadie character was describing how she murdered Sharon Tate, and tasted her blood. The actress who played Susan Atkins did a great job making those weird facial expressions & creepy eyes, just like the real SA. The Ronnie Howard character looked horrified & sick, probably just like the real one did after hearing the gory details.
http://www.indiewire.com/2017/10/roman-polanski-marianne-barnard-molestation-1201889717/
ReplyDeleteNonymous,
ReplyDeleteI remember in the 1990's these T-shirts with His photo and the words, "Charlie Don't Surf. Super popular in Southern California.
Ella Jo: "I said, "I understand Gary Hinman owns his house in Topanga Canyon." I also stated that I believed that he had stocks and bonds."
ReplyDeleteThis is where the "Inheritance Theory" never made any sense. It would have taken days/weeks to convert house/stocks/bonds into cash in hand, involving real estate people, banks, brokers, lawyers, etc. and multiple visits outside the house.
The only way the crime would have paid is if there were a large amount of cash in Hinman's house, and there was never any evidence that the Mansonoids thought there was.
The (evil) King is (doornail) Dead !!! Long Live the (coming or new) King (or Queen) !!!
ReplyDeleteYou think those drugged out idiots knew that it would take weeks to convert stocks/bonds/deeds into cash? They probably thought Gary could stroll into the bank, and quickly have access to money, or that he had money already. That is why they looked at his checkbook. Maybe someone knew that he had been saving for his trip to Japan. Who knows. The killers weren't exactly thinking logically. If they were, BB wouldn't have killed Gary, then drove off in his car with the murder weapon in it. Plus, if Gary had all this money from this mysterious drug deal, what the hell happened to it? $1,000 back then was not chump change. What did the police find in Gary's house, or bank account afterwards to indicate he had that money? Did he buy a bunch of stuff for his trip? Did he have brand new matching luggage, new clothes, etc? There was nothing bought with this money. The whole thing is utterly ridiculous. Nobody ever mentioned a peep about a drug deal until BB started in with that lie. As big as a blabbermouth as Sadie was, she surely would've let it slip through the grapevine that Gary was killed over a drug deal. All of the murders that these creeps got busted for had a common MO with Manson leading the orchestra.
ReplyDeleteLike I posted earlier. Give it up Ace. Your seat on your high horse isn't as exalted as you believe it to be.
ReplyDeleteThis quote...
Charles was incarcerated because the corporations wished to gut the environmental movement, as the executives do not wish to be deprived of their Porsches and yachts, at the expense of a little inconvenience such as undrinkable ground water. Charles was prosecuted for murder in the first place because Mr. Bugliosi was vying for the position of governor and chief big d*ck of the state of California, and needed a pulpit to pound"
Is a bunch of made up shit, probably by you.
it is statements like these that have caused Native American Tribes all over this land to name Ace as "Big Chief Walking Eagle", too full of shit to fly.
"Charles" bullshitted you and you fell for it like a ton of bricks.
ReplyDeleteI am not the only who doesn't buy into the Inheritance Theory
Beausoleil parole hearing, 2016:
http://cielodrive.com/bobby-beausoleil-parole-hearing-2016.php
DEPUTY COMMISSIONER MAHONEY: ... there's claims that no, Manson wanted Mr. Hinman robbed because of a 20 thousand dollar inheritance. You know, and it looks like it was, I don't want to use the word typical, but a typical Manson murder, almost. To, you know, lead into the race war that he wanted to create. There was the fact that the word political piggy was written in blood, and the paw print left to be of like, the Black Panthers. There was the fact that when you were stopped by the police, you told them that the car was sold to you by a black individual. So there's ample evidence that looks like, no, this is not a bad drug deal, this was part of the Manson Family, and part of a typical Manson Family murder.
New documentary with release brought forward. December 3. Trailer link below. Final Words...
ReplyDeletehttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kx-TGqqMuPU
Here's the blurb from their site...
ReplyDeleteCharles Manson: The Final Words
Narrated by musician and director Rob Zombie, the documentary focuses on the Manson family murders told from Manson’s perspective using never-before-seen case files, pictures and exclusive interviews with Manson himself from inside California State Prison.
Charles Manson: The Final Words includes Manson’s eerie and disturbing conversations about modern society, justice, his decades behind bars, the Bernard Crowe shooting and the murders along with digitally restored audio recordings from the original investigations to reconstruct a path of events that led to the brutal slayings of movie star Sharon Tate and four of her friends on August 8, 1969 in addition to the murders of Gary Hinman and Donald “Shorty” Shea.
The documentary also includes compelling new interviews with members of the Manson family which reveal never-before-heard details that help uncover the real story and motives behind the grisly murder spree. Viewers will hear from accused Manson family members Bobby Beausoleil, Barbara Hoyt and Catherine “Cappi” Gillies along with prosecutor Stephen Kay, defense attorney Gary Fleischman, music producer Phil Kaufman as well as other investigators and authors.
Peter said...
ReplyDeleteCharlie killed the 60s and then Altamont stabbed it after it was dead
Lennon didn't identify Charlie as the one that killed the 60s. His view was "the people who are in control and in power, and the class system and the whole bullshit bourgeoisie is exactly the same, except there is a lot of fag middle class kids with long hair walking around London in trendy clothes....but apart from that, nothing happened except that we all dressed up. The same bastards are in control, the same people are runnin' everything. It's exactly the same.
We've grown up a little, all of us, there has been a change and we're all a bit freer and all that, but it's the same game, nothing's really changed. They're doing exactly the same thing, selling arms to South Africa, killing blacks on the street, people are living in fucking poverty with rats crawling over them. It just makes you puke, and I woke up to that too. The dream is over. It's just the same, only I'm thirty, and a lot of people have got long hair, that's all. Nothing happened except that we grew up, we did our thing just like they were telling us. Most of the so called 'now generation' are getting a job. We're a minority, you know, people like us always were, but maybe we are a slightly larger minority because of maybe something or other."
brownrice said...
Interestingly enough, the major event that all these places shared was that the "death of the 60s" pretty much immediately followed the election of a repressive, right-wing government...Thatcher in the UK
Thatcher didn't really follow immediately, she didn't become PM until '79, although Heath did get in in 1970. And what then followed was 9 years of fudge, weak right wing, weak left wing govts, coalitions with the liberals that didn't really work, joining the EU then within 2 years having a referendum to see whether we should be in the EU, a PM resigning mid term, his deputy out of his depth as replacement PM, Thatcher overhauling Heath as Tory leader, the unions hoofing first one government then another by the short and curlies, the UK being known as the sick man of Europe, many figures from the radical 60s music scene becoming rich pop stars and tax exiles and carving out totally different personas from their 60s incarnations to the extent that many didn't know the likes of Bolan, Sweet, Slade, Bowie and Elton had all been active in the 60s.....by the end of '78 the UK was in a sufficient mess for Mrs T to seem like a viably strong alternative that could bring change and hope.
If she did preside over a period that still makes people shiver and can still bring on all night debates of fury angst & passion, there are elements of the left and counterculture that really have no one to blame but themselves. Britain in the 70s was a decade of nuances, all of which eventually played a part in paving the way for Mrs T and even she didn't have the real power base until '82.
It was very sad to find this blog still up and online.
ReplyDeletehttp://releasecharlesmansonnow.blogspot.com/
So, I just looked at it a bit and it was like write a letter to help Manson get out of jail, and he's already dead, but its not updated or removed. And there is very little information about his last days or last words or anything, now that these blogs are abandoned. I am not sure, but I think I read grey wolf is the friend of Manson, whom they claimed was seen with Star going to a gem and mineral show. But, I lost the details or the notes I had on that subject.
starviego said...
ReplyDeleteI am not the only who doesn't buy into the Inheritance Theory
Of course you're not. Lots of people don't. The Inheritance theory, is presented, at least by Bugliosi during the penalty phase, in his book and for years afterwards as having the hallmarks of a Manson episode, all the way down to bloody writing on the walls involving some guise of the word 'pig'.
But look at what Mahoney is actually saying in its entirety from the hearing. He is concentrating on Police evidence that came up in August '69 that show Bobby trying to shift blame onto Black people and tying that together with Bobby's recent admissions that he tried to blame Black radicals and the Panthers. Mahoney is so concentrating on the race war aspect of the Family and is obviously, by that, trying hard to pin Bobby as a bona fide member of the Family and under Charlie's orders. He's not actually saying he doesn't buy the inheritance theory {nor that he does} because he says there's testimony and evidence to support it, rather, that because Bobby was denied parole in 2010 for not being able to show insight as to what led to the crimes, has he changed in the ensuing 6 years given that the evidence shows, with all that we "know" about HS, that this murder demonstrates Charlie's MO ~ blame the Blacks {in the hope that Whitey would get pissed off and go gung ho for revenge}. He wants to know how Bobby explains such major differences in what came up in '69 being so closely allied to what was said to be Charlie's plan to start HS and this drug deal story that comes so late in the day.
It would have taken days/weeks to convert house/stocks/bonds into cash in hand, involving real estate people, banks, brokers, lawyers, etc
Well, be that as it may, it didn't seem that way when Juanita gave the Family $10,000 or when Linda nicked Charles Melton's $5000 or when Tex filched Lotsapoppa's $2700 and according to DeCarlo, when Sandy came on board, she had $6000 worth of stocks which she sold and gave to Charlie. It didn't seem to take long to get money out of Dennis Wilson. Even without Dianne Lake's book there has for almost half a century been ample evidence that good money found its way to the Family.
A.C. Fisher-Aldag said...
Or it's possible it is true, and that you noble, edjacated scholars are not in possession of all the facts
That's precisely why I used examples of your quotes where there are known facts, in particularly from Charlie.
Ha! Exonerated Manson. That's funny. It would have gotten him killed
Then why were you openly declaring it all these years while in the same breath stating that Charlie never lied to you and all this came from him.
He made it to 83 !
The talk of Mafia hits and black books has been around for decades. Wouldn't you think a hit might be put on Charlie just to make sure he didn't give away more than he was already giving away ? After all, Charlie was far sighted enough to flex his muscles on Susan, Pat and Leslie when they all blabbed in '69 with the result that they sank themselves ~ but not him. And when they started "telling the truth" it did them no good. One died in jail, 2 are still there.....
A.C. Fisher-Aldag said...
ReplyDeleteShea was viewed as a witness who could testify against the killers
George Stimson states the absolute opposite in his book. He says "Nor did he {Shea} have any idea of what some of them had already done to demonstrate that devotion and commitment."
Steve Grogan and Bruce Davis both mentioned that he was said to be a snitch but never in connection to any murders. In fact, in George's book, Charlie tells George about Shorty's snitching and about the woman he was with which seemed to bother him even in 2001. In the book George actually quotes Charlie at length including "[People] don't come to me with that shit [race mixing] because I'll kill 'em."
CATSCRADLE77 said...
Thank you all for your kindness - it is much appreciated
Hey, you presided over one of the great sites on this subject, hosted tons of priceless info and when you "came off the road" it was well noticed, missed and commented on even up until David's Dianne Lake book post.
What's not to love ?
grimtraveller said
ReplyDeleteThatcher didn't really follow immediately, she didn't become PM until '79, although Heath did get in in 1970
Yes. That was my whole point. Sorry if I didn’t express myself clearly. What I was trying to say was that the whole “death of the 60s” thing has become short-hand for the end (and failure) of the 60s counterculture but only in America was there any really obvious sign or agreement that it had in fact “died”. In the UK (courtesy of the Free Festival movement and the microdot gang) it continued to survive, grow and spread right up until the 1980s when Maggie (having pretty well crushed the miners & unions by then) turned her sites on the freaks. Google the Battle of the Beanfields (1985). In Australia, the hippie movement was doing very nicely thank you until the constitutional crisis (some would say “coup”) of ’75 when a progressive left-wing government was replaced by an authoritarian right wing one. The following year, the major communes in Australia were rather brutally raided in an attempt to close them down… houses & possessions set fire to, fruit trees cut down, gardens dug up, hippies chained to coconut trees & carted off in cattle trucks. An ugly business all round. Luckily, in the long run it didn’t really work. For quite a few of us (and our kids & grandkids), the “spirit of the 60s” never really died… despite what media pundits, wikipedia & conventional wisdom tell us.
grimtraveller also said:
Hey, you presided over one of the great sites on this subject, hosted tons of priceless info and when you "came off the road" it was well noticed, missed and commented on even up until David's Dianne Lake book post.
What's not to love ?
I'll second that.
The Daily Mail tracked Linda Kasabian down to shout questions at her about how she feels about Manson dying, took pictures of her while she asked them to leave, and showed a picture of her current apartment, and revealed her current name to anyone who didn’t already know it.
ReplyDeleteNonymous said...
ReplyDeleteThe Daily Mail tracked Linda Kasabian down to shout questions at her about how she feels about Manson dying, took pictures of her while she asked them to leave
Well, that's the Mail for you. Juxtaposed with a piece about Hitler's last meal !
Linda looks like a regular 21st century grandma, hoody and joggers. When I was a kid, 68 was considered ancient and "old" people dressed like old people. But that generation that came of age in the 60s did have something different about them that, for a great many of them, never departed and carries on to the present day. There was much about that decade that left a lot to be desired but there were also some tremendous aspects that have enriched life for many since.
CrisPOA said...
ReplyDeletereading/watching the news on the mass media i am still impressed on how they forget about Watson. They say Manson made his followers kill, but the pictures are mostly of the three girls. It's just so strange
But in the end, does it really matter ? Watson is still in jail and whoever is on the parole boards at his future hearings won't forget him !
I've often read that Bugliosi created the Manson myth, but never once heard anyone recall that Bugliosi in his book called Watson the chief Tate~LaBianca killer.
Many members of the media in general aren't interested in the polite backwoods boy that took drugs and killed if there's a barely literate but ever so clever and charismatic con {in both senses of the word !} of whom it is said could get young ladies to kill at his behest. It's simply a better story and Tex had all the charisma of sunflower stalk.
ColScott said...
Charlie died knowing the motivation but any TLB scholar worth his salt knew he would never give it up
I think Charlie lived most of his life pissed off that he ended up going down for the final time as easily as all the other times he was caught. There's no way that he could admit that "the MAN" got it right and that the wall he had so carefully constructed to show how poor society's structures were ended up falling on him and crushing him to dust. Not only that, the establishment he had so little time and respect for rebuilt his wall and that fell on him too. Holding out on "what really happened" was all he had and that took the form of never admitting that "the MAN" was in fact correct. The very fact that 3 people that had his ear for years all have espoused different motives tells one all one needs to know.
It is sad to see what could have been a good life literally wasted
I so agree with this. It also applies to the others but when one takes on board just how good Charlie was at certain things and how he could get to people, well, I think so much good could have come of it. Even if he'd been some kind of advocate for prisoners post '67, even for a short while....Although it's easier to focus on his trail of destruction there were positive aspects of his interaction with people at various points.
Mario George Nitrini 111 said...
everyone else knows, the "Group" that I have commented about on this blog, is
NOT
the Straight Satans
Sometimes Mario, one can be too cryptic for one's own good. "The Group" sounds like a Canadian version of The Band {most of whom were Canadian anyway}.
Spit it out clearly, man !
Nonymous said...
ReplyDeleteThe Daily Mail
At first their article is really accurate, a refreshing diversion....then it reverts to type. There's one really odd bit {it might be in the "Where are they now ?" segment} where the reader is informed that Susan Atkins died in 2009 then is told she's next eligible for parole in 2012.
prefeteria said...
I believe that after the Crowe incident, that the word got out that Manson and/or his people could do this type of thing on demand
If they heard the same story Charlie supposedly told AC, no one in their right mind would hire that lot for a shit, much less a hit !
Well, maybe Susan....
Marlene Ful said...
what I do not understand is how the ones that did murder could be so cruel and not have compassion for all the victims
In a acid~y, topsy turvy, twistedly counterculturally seeming way, arguably, compassion was being shown.
It is noteworthy that when Susan was first speaking of the murders to one of her cellmates, she was adamant that whatever she said and did to Sharon, she was saying and doing to herself. Although earlier on Vermouth Brilliantine joked that
I am he As you are he As you are me And we are all together
that opening line from "I am the Walrus" is really worth taking a look at and examining. At its heart is quite an interesting sentiment actually and not necessarily a negative one either. It certainly explains much of the Family's schtick and why Atkins and Van Houten did not initially see what they had done as wrong or more to the point, saw it as being right. Remember, their mode of thought was that death was a beautiful thing and they were ready to die so that gave them the right to bring death to others, to mercifully release them from this mortal plane.
Twisted ? Yeah.
But they believed it. How Charlie got them to go along with that is one of the marveling aspects of this story although he's by no means the first person to have achieved such a feat.
Without Charle some of them would most likely never been involved in murder
I guess we can never know but I've been inclined go along with that.
On the other hand, who can tell ? That TLB was the occasion that did bring them to murder perhaps suggests that in other stressful circumstances they would have. Bruce and Steve certainly showed real weakness in how they succumbed. Tex also, particularly as he has said that he didn't want to go killing anyone. Could Leslie and Susan have found themselves in circumstances that could have erupted into violence and murder ? They did with strangers. Imagine later down the line and a spurned lover or something.
We humans can be strange and our tipping points unforeseen. I wouldn't mind betting that at the start of '69, none of the Family could have seen themselves killing.
starviego said...
So you are correct, Grim, when you say Manson didn't do it alone; he was in fact just the tool - a tool wielded by others
I didn't even say Manson didn't do it alone. I said he didn't do it at all.
Christopher that Manson: Final Words looks good!
ReplyDeleteJust as an addendum to the Mail story - they contacted me on Monday for a proposed piece on the Joel Pugh/Manson saga (yet again). I sincerely hope I put them off - but am not holding my breath! x
ReplyDeleteI wonder if the news of Manson's death to those still in prison strikes a morbid cord deep inside each of them. It's got to have caused a shudder, a terrible recognition, like a dark shade slowly closing over a lighted window of their own wasted mortality.
ReplyDeleteI was curious if Lynette Fromme had made any sort of statement on old Charlie's demise, but found nothing listed on Google except this odd Lynette parody video put up a few days ago on You Tube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yDAnoExkEo
myna, that is a strange video. i feel like anna j witiuk has quite the talent for improv, though!
ReplyDeleteYOu know, Myna, I think that that's actually a pretty strange & good song in the parody video you posted a link to. esp. considering she may have written it directly before recording & uploading that video.
ReplyDelete@Logan~
ReplyDeleteI'm guessing it must have been a story she followed for some time, at least on the Lynette Fromme/Charles Manson angle. It was a very curious find, indeed.
I'm just a soul who's intentions are good Oh lord please don't let me be Misunderstood
ReplyDeleteMy hope:
ReplyDeleteHis first encounter post death was with Atkins and while she bitched at him he responded "Hey, Sadie, we finally made it back to the desert, finally, that's why its so hot here."
William, If you mean 'Manson Rah Rah': bullshit.
starviego said...
ReplyDeleteCharlie probably at this point has bigger name and facial recognition than any of the individual Beatles
Ironically, if there was a point at which the 60s "died", it was when that crowd that sang "all you need is love, love is all you need", "with our love we could save the world" and "Love you, love you ~ and in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make" broke up amid arguments, put downs of each other in songs, LP covers and interviews and court cases that lasted most of the following decade. The deaths of Hendrix and Joplin soon after didn't help.
Unknown said...
ReplyDeleteHe should never have been convicted of 1st degree murder
On which of the 9 counts ?
my thinking is if you tell somebody to jump off a cliff and they do it, are you guilt of 1st degree murder?
With all due respect, that's a poor analogy because it's way more nuanced than that. Many people that talk about Charlie's involvement routinely ignore that little matter of conspiracy.....and that conspiracy took a couple of years to bake and is where much of Charlie's power, such as it was, lay.