They know you’re out there.
In the annals of the Manson blog, the post that received the most participation was the motive survey a few years ago. Thousands voted. This proved that if only a handful of people regularly comment, there are thousands of lurkers.
I'm not a regular blogger, by the way. Not Matt, nor Deb, nor My Favorite Saint.
I’m a lurker. I’m a reflection of you.
Like many of you silent masterminds, I started lurking when this blog had Day-Glo fonts and that blog master with the evil screen name. Didn’t matter. I was hooked and felt secretly naughty learning new details about the case I thought I knew so well. I am now a Manson blog addict and have watched it grow full of investigative journalism, peppered with cutting humor and snark. I’ve lurked in bed, on the train, on numerous planes, at weddings, in church, in office meetings, and during blind date bathroom breaks. For a while, my mother lurked with me. It’s been fun, interesting, and I feel I’ve gotten to know all the bloggers, though I’ve never met a single one. (This must terrify them.)
Why did I finally comment? Two years ago, I blew my lurker status by asking to join one of the Manson tours. Although I couldn’t make the tour, I exposed my real name to at least one blogger. So, I decided to start adding comments here and there, and it wasn’t that bad. Now, whenever I comment, I have no fear (and no remorse). It’s just that I’ve always been more comfortable being in the audience. I know how you lurkers feel. Thing is: the people who do the research and write the posts want you to participate. The effort they put into keeping this going is tremendous. It’s almost like someone told them: If you’re gonna do something, do it well.
So in the spirit of Halloween, let’s thank them by creeping out of the closet and each writing a comment.
Here’s what I’ve been wanting to know from everyone: If you could sit down and chat with any living person from the immediate or extended case, who would it be and why?
To kickstart the lurkers: Matt the Met, how about you create one nice thing to say about the Yankees for each lurker who comments? You only need to share if the Yanks win the World Series, which was looking pretty good until yesterday.
Out of the closet and hoping to hear from 100 lurkers,
Monica
90 comments:
It is an obvious computer glitch that any post not written by me could have been the most commented on or read ever....
😜
Hello Monica. Too bad you waited so long to say hello. I think this is a great idea and I hope lots of other people come out to say hi.
The post I did over the weekend about Tex took hours but they usually take days or weeks to do. The work and insults and arguments are all worth it when you get to read one new person contribute to your ideas or say something nice about your work.
I love many of the regulars but I wrote for silent masses who I know read like you do Monica. I just wish more of you would come out and play lol
We are all better off when you do...
Lurker here who's only commented on one post. I'm relatively new to the case but in the past 9 months or so I've immersed myself in everything I could find. I actually got sucked in watching one of those documentaries on TV (the one where Linda narrates). I had a question about one particular part, that I can't even remember now, googled it and opened up Pandora's box. I found this blog relatively quickly in my search and have read just about every post from the start. After that I found a copy of Little Paul's book for $60 and didn't hesitate to order it.
I'm a 31 year old mother of two toddlers so even the times just fascinate me. The case strikes me because, although I can't fathom murder, I can kind of understand how kids from relatively 'normal' families end up getting caught up in craziness. I had the ideal middle class upbringing, my parents were and are amazing, but I just always felt like something was missing. I excelled in school, sports, was part of the 'popular crowd' but I never quite felt comfortable or content, I guess. I went through a few years of experimenting with drugs, hanging out with 'bad boys' (who were usually kids just like me) and at the time I didn't have the backbone to say no and wanted to 'fit in'. I look back at situations I put myself in and can't believe it now (nothing crazy criminal but totally opposite from the world I grew up in). I was lucky my parents never gave up on me, they were always close, I tried to live a double life and in a lot of ways I succeeded in that. I think about what could've happened if I had been separated from my family and fell under the influence of an older manipulative guy like Charlie. I don't see myself going on a murder spree but I can kind of understand the perfect storm of personalities and bad things happening. That part was never so unbelievable to me. I think I'm so fascinated to the case because I can almost relate to them.
I was lucky, my rebellion lasted a few years and then I settled down but I think it's part of the reason I'm so drawn to the case.
To answer the question...ugh, that's a hard one! The answer changes rapidly as I fall into certain subjects. If they were going to be completely honest I would like to talk to Brenda, I'm fascinated by what happened to her to get her to that point and I'm sure she's one of them that knows almost everything. Dianne Lake would be another, to be that young and in a situation like that...
Yankees??? That's like blackmail... or something. But 100 lurkers? Saint has the record on a single post with 12, I think. So, I'll agree to your challenge feeling like the odds are in my favor.
Monica,
I like your writing style. Please keep posting.
Long time lurker, I think I have only commented once before on the motive survey. I first read HS in the library of my small town In Western Australia, as a 13 year old not long after it was published. Over the years, I have read anything else TLB related that I could find. The people I would most like to talk to would be Ruth Ann or Mary.
Hope you keep writing, Monica! Really enjoyed reading your post!
My "one person" pick, with one caveat - they must be forced to ingest a truth serum before the talk: Bruce Davis. IMO he knows much, much more than he's ever said.
Without truth serum: Witold K.
P.S. I count as 1/2-a-lurker, right? Except I detest the Yankees (DODGERS!!) so I hope Matt doesn't lose the challenge. Although it would be awesome to "meet" new commenters. Hmmmm... torn.
Hi, I'm a lurker. I've only commented a few times before but I read every post. I first read about Manson in an edition of The People's Almanac that my parents had. I think the same one that had a write-up of the Jeffrey MacDonald case. I was about 13 at the time ( I was born in 1978, so was too young to have learned about either case when it was fresh). I became pretty obsessed with both cases and started reading as much as I could about them, especially after the internet became a thing. I think I was a lot like some of the girls. I might have gone along with CM too.
I love reading the posts here; they always make me think. I am so excited to be the very first person in my city's library system to have signed up to read Dianne Lake's book when it comes out. I feel kind of silly saying that, but I know people here will understand. There will be one copy in circulation and I'm the first of six who have requested it, so not really a popular new book, but I feel kind of special having gotten there first. Ha.
As for the people I'd like to talk to...any of them really, but I've always been interested in Dianne, which is why I want to read her book. I also wanted to mention a Claire Vaye Watkins sighting in the wild...I just finished reading a desert-setting murder mystery novel, that included a review from her on the back cover. She liked the book more than I did, I think.
I was a lurker at another defunct blog for awhile. Commented and was told basically to shut up. I left. A year or so later drawn back to the subject I started lurking here. Finally I wrote a Kasabian post and sent it to Matt.
There is nothing more enjoyable to me about writing here than seeing a comment appear from a lurker, even if the first time it happened to me was because I messed up the number of Kasabian's brothers.
For me with truth serum: Kasabian.
Oops
Without: Ed Sanders
Jennifer, I think Dianne will be on Dr. Phil next Wednesday.
Trilby, I'd save some of serum for Witold
Thanks, Cielodrive.com! I didn't know. I'll try to watch.
I started off as a lurker by accident. I can't remember how but I do remember reading something about Juanita Wildebush and something else about Charlie's Mum saying he had mental problems. I think this was 2014, maybe earlier. Came back about a year later and used to click on the photos and follow the threads associated with those. They weren't particularly deep but every now and then a phrase would come up or a point be made that made me want to check up and it started from there. I'd think about commenting but then I'd think 'what for ?' I was only intending a temporary glance. Then elsewhere I came across the LVH~Marvin Part interview and that blew my socks off and from there discovered there were a few good blogs and basically dived into 4 of the 5. I also found that at that time, a number of contributors had done {or were doing} the rounds among the variety and eventually I couldn't keep quiet.
What a great post! I lurked for quite a while before mustering the courage to comment. It can be quite intimidating. I see individuals who clearly put a great deal of time and thought into their posts. I love watching Patty talk in the third person. The Col is provocative, and has forced me to reconsider everything I thought I knew about the murders since I first picked up HS as a kid in the late 70's. Matt, Deb, George, my favorite Saint, David, as well as all of the other contributors entertain and educate daily. I thoroughly enjoy this blog. I wish I had the time to sit down and crank out a post, but I'll just have to settle for, what i hope would be a well though out reply.
If I talk to anyone, it's Kasabian. With serum.
The person I would like to talk to is Rosina Kroner partly because she's not far from me and I've seen her at her store but also because she was there for perhaps the first instance of violence which may have led to the rest of the madness and because she may have an opinion about whether the burn was all Tex's idea and I would like to hear all the details she could remember Also she spent time with Tex away from Manson and maybe she could shed light on his personality and whether he could be a sociopath or just a dutiful soldier or both
But I know she doesn't want to be bothered so I don't want to mess with her
Cielo. Thank you for posting the Diane Lake interview. I knew you had it 'cause you could see the box label in the picture you used for the audio archives.
Dani_P said...
I think about what could've happened if I had been separated from my family and fell under the influence of an older manipulative guy like Charlie. I don't see myself going on a murder spree but I can kind of understand the perfect storm of personalities and bad things happening. That part was never so unbelievable to me. I think I'm so fascinated to the case because I can almost relate to them
I think you're a good writer, I like the way you apply what happened with the women to where you've been at.
Jennifer Hays said...
I first read about Manson in an edition of The People's Almanac that my parents had
I'm reminded of a documentary I saw on Ray Davies of the Kinks where he was talking about his songwriting process in the 60s and when he discussed the song "Autumn Almanac" he said he deliberately used the word 'almanac' because it wasn't a commonly used one, as he described it, a very "un~rock'n'roll" word. I spent 4 years as a teenager in Nigeria and the word was a really common one there at the time {late 70s}, much more common, believe it or not, than 'calendar' so it tends to make my ears/eyes prick or raise up when I hear it {or see it in print}. It was in Nigeria that I first came across the case, in a book called "Infamous Murders" {for decades I thought it was "murderers"} and for 10 months, I actually felt that virtually all the murders and murderers in the book were a lot more interesting than Charles Manson and his troupe.
I think I was a lot like some of the girls. I might have gone along with CM too
I think Bugliosi was right on the ball when he described this case as unique. And not least because of Charlie himself. I don't know how much air time people accused of murder received prior to him but he certainly got lots of media attention that focused on him as a personality and his charisma shone through sufficiently to attract people to come and support him.
I am so excited to be the very first person in my city's library system to have signed up to read Dianne Lake's book when it comes out. I feel kind of silly saying that, but I know people here will understand
Nothing silly about that at all. Although here in London libraries have taken a pounding because there's so much one can now find online, they still fulfill a vital service, especially to those that grew up with them. If a book is popular or wanted, there's quite a scramble to get them.
Monica said...
Here’s what I’ve been wanting to know from everyone: If you could sit down and chat with any living person from the immediate or extended case, who would it be and why?
Linda Kasabian, out of sheer curiosity. And Squeaky because I'd be fascinated to try and understand what she saw, from her own particular point of view.
I'm a longtime lurker and enjoy the informative posts made by people who have obviously put a great deal of their time and talents into researching this case to often impressive results.
I also enjoy reading the thought-provoking and sometimes funny exchanges in the comments area. This case is complex on so many levels that the opinions and emotions expressed here reflect that complexity. Yet, the common thread seems to be searching for the truth that has yet to be told or published.
The inspiring part for me is that small and sometimes crucial pieces of that truth continue to surface and this blog has hosted many of these discoveries adding pieces to puzzle some of us have been trying to put together for many years.
Cheers to those in charge and everyone who has contributed here.
Grimtraveller, if you can find The People's Almanac (I think there were three editions, each different and all written in the late 70's, I think), you would love those books. I've read your comments here and on LSB3 for a long time and you seem very interested/knowledgeable about history, popular culture, etc., and those books were great compendiums of all kinds of trivia and random information.
I'm a longtime lurker, too. I occasionally comment, but the amount of information in the posts & the comment section is often overwhelming, and I find it better to just read everything & ponder it instead of spouting off my uninformed opinions which wouldn't add much to the discussion anyway.
I have learned so much about the case (and many other things besides) from this blog, its posts, and the myriad personalities in the comment section who've kept it going through the years (RIP Mr Hendrickson). Grim, David/Dreath & Mr Stimson always have something fascinating to contribute. (Not to say that the other regulars don't hold their mud!)
An answer to Monica's question: I'd love to speak with Julia Cafritz, even though she's only tangentially related to the case, I think it would be interesting to hear what she has to say about her aunt's oft-spoken of connections to Manson & friends in Reno (if she has anything to say at all).
As stated elsewhere in the section, Linda, Witold K, Rosina & Squeaky would also be fascinating to talk to. Incidentally, I have a friend who works at an Albertson's (a chain grocery store) in Fort Worth, Texas. He told me that an "L. Fromme" who very much resembled Squeaky came in to pick up a birthday cake from the bakery around 2012/13. Just one of those lil tidbits about the case that most people run into from time to time!
Monica, great post! I have commented two or three times, but I qualify as a lurker. I appreciate the writers of this blog. I look forward to reading the latest posts and comments each night.
I thought only certain writers could post a new topic. I hope you will write more.
As for the question, I would most like to talk to Leslie or Patricia. Gypsy is also someone I'd like to interview.
To all.
There is no such thing as an inarticulate, or unintelligent or uniformed comment. Every question, every comment spurs thought and investigation. Some comments have inspired my posts.
This is indeed about finding the truth. And the way it will be found is by someone's comment.
Any input or question is priceless in reaching that truth.
Even Grim's.
I'm kidding Grim. Frankly, he inspired one of my posts.
I've been "stalking" this blog for about 6 to 9 months now commenting here or there. I really got interested after I saw "manson", the hendrickson doc.
After I saw that, I watched a stoner van YouTube tour of spahn ranch and that got me onto wondering what the "family" looked like today. Naturally it led me here and after I saw the pics and started reading posts, a lot of questions were answered and waaay more came to mind. Now I'm addicted and I wanna find out what really happened which a lot doesnt add up. I can't stay away, and it is weird lurking because I do feel like some of the posters (i.e. Mr. Stimpson, st. C) give personality in their posts and I'm starting to feel like I've already met them.
If I could talk to one person from the case about the case today, without a doubt it'd be either Mary or clem just because they won't talk.
Thanks for the blog guys!
Well Monica, you've drawn out 8 lurkers so far if I decide to throw you Logan and lostgirl. I recognize them so whether or not they qualify may have to come down to a vote if it's close. The Yankees won, but you are behind the pace of drawing out 100. I won't put too much thought into 100 nice things. Yet.
Dani_P
Jeannie
Jennifer Hays
Logan
lostgirl
BlueJayWay
Tim A.
Toby King
What Monica says is true though. On a really bad day we see at least 2000 page views. On a really good day as many as 13,000. So, we are aware of how much we've grown.
Thank you Grim! That made me blush because I love your writing style and soak up every word you post!
8 lurkers, 8 runs. Sound like a sign. Maybe we should follow the Yankees to the bottomless pit and build and empire and… I digress.
Thank you lurkers, half lurkers and usual suspects for commenting. And for those who despise the Yankees, thanks for taking one for the team.
Are others lurkers reading this post? Now you see how much the usual suspects like to hear from you. We only need 92 more of you to say hi!
The person I would like to interview is Clem. He knows everything, and I doubt he’d need truth serum.
That is amazing how many view this site Matt
Logan I like your L Fromme birthday cake story!
F the pinstripes
Hi everybody, I guess Monica's post has finally made me want to reveal myself! :-) I started reading about Manson/TLB back in the mid-1980s when I was a teenager and have been a student of the case ever since. I follow this blog regularly. I really miss Cats and Truth On Tate-Labianca. The one (living) witness to this whole story Id love to interview would be greg jakobsen (sic?). Specifically, Id love to ask him about all the film and video footage he and friends supposedly shot in and around Spahn Ranch circa spring, 1969 for the documentary film he was going to make in collaboration with Terry Melcher. Personally, in regards to motive, I think voytek and jay were partners in a small-scale hallucinogenic drug ring that ran afoul of some of the bigger LA-area dealers. In a nutshell, I believe voytek and jay were selling their wares at lower prices to certain customers of these big-time dealers, which understandably pissed off the latter. So the big-time dealers, who knew manson & watson, basically hired the family to do a hit on votek et al. Would like to hear feedback on this theory (of which Im certainly not the first proponent of LOL). Anyway, please keep this blog going as long as possible. Will continue to be a faithful reader and, who knows, maybe someday I will go on one of the annual tours.
I've been reading/lurking for about three years. I first read the HS and Child of Satan while a young teen in the 70's (still have both copies along with other books collected.) I went on with a busy life, and thought little about it unless there was a news event regarding one of the family or the case.
Fast forward to three years ago, a neighbor with a similar back story to Charlie prompted a curiosity in his background/childhood (we live in close proximity to his early childhood roots.) After reading online all I could, I also developed an interest in the girls, what became of the ones not behind bars. With that came more interest in motives, stories related to, and other key players.
With a healthy dose of serum for each, I think Mary, Bruce, and Linda would have the most interesting and possibly the most information.
I lurk just to make sure Bill Nelson is still dead. Every time I see that he still is I chuckle a little and thank my Jeepers this sort of safe and sane blog now exists.
FIDDY!!!
Neil Young.
Don't throw me too hard, I'm recovering from surgery. Go Astros!
"I have a friend who works at an Albertson's (a chain grocery store) in Fort Worth, Texas. He told me that an "L. Fromme" who very much resembled Squeaky came in to pick up a birthday cake from the bakery around 2012/13. Just one of those lil tidbits about the case that most people run into from time to time!"
It couldn't have been her. She's been in upstate New York since her parole in 2009.
"She's been in upstate New York since her parole in 2009."
Punishment enough. I hope it's Troy.
Hi Matt!
Hi George!
Hi Monica!
:o)
Wow, great post!
I really wish you could of made it to the tour we went on that year. It would of been so cool to meet you. Most likely, we wouldn't of gotten much sleep, talking about our opinions & the case.
I am definitely an everyday lurker here. I've commented a few times. There's been times I've wanted to comment or ask a question but don't for fear of either asking a question that's either been asked before, sounding dumb, or even worse, getting backlash from somebody. So instead, I just sit on the sidelines and read everyone's comments.
The person I would like to talk to would have to be a 2-part answer:
To find out what everyday life was like at the ranch;
It would be Sandy & Squeaky (Lynn).
To find out the truth about the nights of August 8th & 9th;
It would be Katie.
She went on both nights, was in the living room the whole time, until she ran after Abigail. And it's been said she went back into the house & was there when they contemplated either taking Sharon back to the ranch with them to have the baby or killing her then & there at the house.
I just wonder if
1. There was really that chance that Sharon might have had a chance to live?
2. When was everyone in the car hip to what was going down, when they left the ranch, the night of August 8th?
Really great article, Monica. Thank you for cracking the door ajar so some of us lurkers and semi-lurkers could come out to play.
Who I would like to speak with: She would need a lot of truth serum--Suzan LaBarge. I would like to know the truth about the relationship between her and Tex, and if she had any hand in her mother's murder.
More truth serum: Katie and Bill Garretson and that nutjob, Rosie Tate.
I'm afraid there isn't enough truth serum in the world to get CHarlie or Tex or Sadie to open their mouth's without a lie coming out.
Long time lurker here. I've posted a couple times I believe but I mainly check in a couple times a month and catch up with the newest posts.
I discovered a copy of Helter Skelter in my parents basement when I was 11 or 12 and I read it cover to cover. I've been interested in the whole Manson story ever since.
If I had the opportunity to interview anyone associated with the cases I think I'd pick Clem. I think he may be the most honest about how things went down but hell, it's been almost 50 years since everything happened. I'm not sure I would trust anyone's memories of what exactly transpired back in '69. The one thing I am most certain of about the whole story is that we will never truly know why these events occurred.
hi, my name is Anika, and I'm 15 years old. I just discovered this blog a very short time ago but my whole life, even before knowing really anything about it, I've felt strangely connected to this case. Just recently, over the summer, I took the time to learn more about it, beginning with the series on this topic from the 'You Must Remember This' podcast. Listening to this podcast, hearing all that happened, hearing Charlie's music, I feel such a connection, like I was there, when I obviously wasn't. I am just wondering if you guys are here because you feel it too, everyone I've told in real life just says something like "oh" or "that's weird" and brushes it away. Maybe I'm just a crazy kid. But it's a crazy feeling. Also, if I could interview anyone, it would be Dianne, because she was young just like I am when she got all mixed up in it.
hippie doll said...
There's been times I've wanted to comment or ask a question but don't for fear of either asking a question that's either been asked before, sounding dumb, or even worse, getting backlash from somebody
I used to tread very carefully when I first appeared on the scene. I didn't want to have people like Vera Dreiser, Diligaf, Mr Poirot, Melcher's promises, AC Fisher Aldag and ColScott eating me for breakfast in cyberspace. I didn't want to challenge authors, lawyers, post writers, blog heavyweights or purveyors of withering internet sarcasm. Having my carcass splayed publicly for all to see was actually a very real concern at first.
But there's always going to be someone that disagrees with something that an individual says. Although it seems easy to say this, being put through the mill isn't the terrible crusher we perhaps build it up in our minds to be. And being publicly wrong about something isn't either. When Chris Till pointed out that I'd been wrong in saying mescaline wasn't illegal in California in '69 when I'd spent well over a year saying that and it turns out that it was, I sweated for a while. But it just meant that I needed to own my errors and come out and admit it. It happens.
“hi, my name is Anika, and I'm 15 years old”
Perhaps SAG will read this and understand why he is not welcome here.
Great post, Monica. I used to feel I. Knew a lot about this case and life got in the way. Conversationally, i am a jack of all trades master of none. I used to post on another blog, got blasted and stopped because politically charged places are not my thing. I have a tendency to post random, off the beaten posts and are never sure if they are well received. I appreciate all of the well versed, subject matter experts, and of course, all the various viewpoints and perspectives.
I would love to interview Bugliosi....did he believe all that he presented and what did he takes to his grave?
Let's go Dodgers...#weloveLA!
It's none of my business but could you explain the deal with this guy?(SAG) I always see his comments getting deleted
David said...
Perhaps SAG will read this and understand why he is not welcome here.
Toby King, David hit it right on the head. We are all adults and an occasional well-rendered profanity, political opinion or religious stance is fine. But, certain levels of decorum are understood by most everyone who visits here. Second and tenth chances were given and now he is not allowed to comment any longer.
As a reminder, the blog is on moderation for the foreseeable future. It's why you don't see your comments appear until after an admin reviews and approves. We apologize for the inconvenience, but Anika reinforces our resolve to keep it clean and welcoming.
I admit this blog is a guilty pleasure of mine. I swore it off after an unpleasant exchange with the Col but haven’t been able keep away. More recently, I’ve grown to appreciate the Col and his contributions and knowledge and he appears to have backed off his nasty comments to everyone with a few exceptions. He earned my respect calling people out for the selfies.
Regardless, I’ve been fascinated with the case since first reading HS. My participation here has always been somewhat limited for multiple reasons. Mainly, I find it hard to explain to people that I have a fascination with something so sinister and morbid. So, I keep it to myself and truthfully, it’s one of the only things that nobody else knows about me.
I also tend to think that one of the victims family members (no matter how far removed) reads what is written here. I know I would. And in that regard, I think Matt and others have kept it as classy as possible. If it wasn’t, I wouldn’t participate at all.
Truth be told, Zodiac is far more intriguing to me than Manson- probably because the real perpetrator has never been 100% identified. But like everyone here, there’s something that interests me about the family, the victims, the ranch, the crimes, and all things Mason... and has since about 1982.
I was a lurker, but now I wont shut up.
I first learned of the case watching Helter Skelter in my cozy suburban den one Saturday afternoon when I was about 12. I think originally, it was broken into two parts and they were showing them back to back (probably some sporting event was rained out) and it lasted about 4 or 5 hours with commercials. Growing up right outside New York, I was really affected by the Son of Sam which happened when I was about 10. I remember clipping all the articles from the Daily News. I remember my older sisters coloring and cutting their hair because the rumor was that he went after only brunettes. I used to listen to the news on the radio at night on CBS and 1010 Wins with the fake teletypes clacking in the background. Stories from the City about crime and blackouts, baseball scores and traffic on the FDR Drive. I remember vividly the hot August night when news came over the radio that Sam had been captured.
I've always enjoyed reading true crime. The Lindbergh kidnapping, American Tragedy, Compulsion. A few years ago I read Maury Terry's book. It's one of the few books that I made a conscious decision to throw away after reading it because it creeped me out and made me feel dirty even owning it. The premise requires one to adopt a line of reasoning that I find more than a little perverse. But it got me thinking about Manson again.
About six months ago, I was looking up the names of the girls on the internet because we have a little girl about 7 or 8 years old that lives in the neighborhood that appears sweet, but can sometimes be a real sneaky bitch to my little boy. She has long tangled hair and I sardonically refer to her when speaking with my wife as "Linda Kasabian." As one website lead to another, I realized how little I really knew about the case. When I found Cielodrive.com, I was fascinated by all the source material now available. Particularly the taped interviews and the trial transcripts. My wife grew up a decade behind me, spent the first 10 years in a different country, and is a city kid. So she has no interest in Manson whatsoever. To her, my interest in the case borders on the obscene and any attempts at discussing it are met with immediate suspicion as to my moral character. So this is the only place where I can share my interest. It's a really interesting mix of "scholars" - perhaps loosely - enthusiast, people with actual first hand knowledge, even some published authors on the subject. There aren't many sites where you can really talk to people that are involved in the subject of the forum the way they are here. I think it lifts the discourse above your average blog.
The people I would want to talk to are: Van Houten, because I think she was the smartest and would have the most meaningful insight and be able to best articulate it. (And I have to revise my earlier comments on her parole. I now support her release and wont get into my reasons here, but maybe some other time if the topic comes up.) Mary because she was there the longest. And Bruce, because I think he knows the real inner workings of the family, the business side that the girls were excluded from.
There's the Dianne Lake interview in People magazine today but we don't want to preempt Monica's first post.
Feel free to comment on it here though... especially still closeted lurkers.
I think I've turned into a lurker. I never have time for anything else besides lurking anymore.....
Grim said: But it just meant that I needed to own my errors and come out and admit it. It happens.
Mr Stimson, thanks for clearing the fort worth/upstate ny squeaky locale matter up for me ;)
Thanks for sharing that article, Matt! She looks great and I'm glad to hear she's doing well today. So excited for that book...
I consider myself a lurker too.
For some years now. I rarely comment, and when i do is to make questions.
This case is so rich in details i sometimes literally "loose the thread".
Also, i'm from Brazil and english is not my first language. I can read it just fine, but writing is something else.
I would like to ask Patricia Krenwinkel some questions. With that serum.
I think she seems truthful in some interviews i saw.
I am a lurker, I think you can count the posts I have made on one finger. Despite an almost life times interest in this case I hardly ever post.I was 14 years old when this case was splashed all over the UK press.I still recall a headline " Hippy Cult Murder" it was that very headline which drew my interest and that interest has never waned.The simple reason I don't post is...lack of confidence, not in any facts I may write but just in general. Despite my age I hate confrontation so back away. I was a member of similar blogs but for reasons stated I left after a nasty encounter with someone, you know the sort - their way or no way, ears closed to any counter argument. This site however is different so I'll pluck up courage more often and commit my thoughts to print.
The person I would love to question would be Brenda, she knows far far more than she has ever said about everything and everyone.
I am now counting 17 lurkers including Austin Ann! Ha! Thanks all!
The Yankees just won again BYW.
Lynn, I'd love to see the Dodgers and the Yanks play in the World Series. My two fav places (although My Favorite Saint has me convinced my next trip must be to San Diego...Tex or not)!
Matt, thanks for the link to Dianne's article. Dianne, if you are reading, congratulation and god bless. I pre-ordered as did many of us, I'm sure. Can't wait to read your story.
I lurked, then I registered, now I post once in a while. I'm either an unmotivated poster or an aggressive lurker. Either way, I hate the Yankees.
Chris I knew you were from Brazil but didn't realize English wasn't your first language. I hope you comment often. I remember you like the Doors and I love them too.
If Equinox and/or MHN are lurking they should weigh in
Looking forward to seeing the Snake interviews and book.
No lurker here but I would like to talk to Catherine Share. She seems too smart to be roped in by Manson and then the Aryan Brotherhood. She was one of Manson's best bull shitters. Of course having three parents kill themselves might turn someone. Imagine what her parent's would say when they killed themselves fighting the Nazi's during world war 2 and the daughter they saved went on to join the Aryan brotherhood.
Congrats Monica 🥂You have the new lurker record lol. This was an excellent post and idea!!
Grimtraveler said: "When Chris Till pointed out that I'd been wrong in saying mescaline wasn't illegal in California in '69 when I'd spent well over a year saying that and it turns out that it was, I sweated for a while. But it just meant that I needed to own my errors and come out and admit it. It happens."
Grim: Like you say, it happens. You are one of the most reasonable posters on here. Studying the historical legal status of hallucinogens was once a pet hobby of mine.
As I've posted a handful of comments, I don't qualify as a lurker. My comments usually pertain to the music angle; the hallucinogen angle; and the sixties-spirit-of-the-times angle.
Unlike many here, my angle isn't really the motive. (Personally, I suspect there's a fair amount of truth in CM's "Rolling Stone" 12/5/2013 interview. Said he: "HS wasn't a lie. It was just Bugliosi's perspective. Everybody's saying it the way they want to remember it. Sooner or later, we all got to submit to each other's point of view. Sure, it [HS talk?] was going on. But it was just part of the part. The reasons was all kinds of different things that were happening in Tex's mind and all of our minds together, and there's lots of different discrepancies in there that don't correlate to be straight. There was a lot of motives, man. You got a motive for every person there. It was a collective idea. It was an episode. A psychotic episode...")
Who would I care to interview? Mike Deasy, the extraordinary Wrecking Crew session guitarist with a mobile recording studio who Terry Melcher had record CM in June 1969.
My book recommendation? Bryan Burrough's "Days of Rage: America's Radical Underground, the FBI, and the Forgotten Age or Revolutionary Violence." Though the Mansonistas are only mentioned in passing, it is not only a superb book on the Second American Revolution, but almost the only book on the topic. For an overview of the violent madness that gripped many in the late 1960s and 1970s, it is invaluable.
Peace.
Longtime lurker here. I've posted only a few times, 2 or 3, I believe. I've been following these blogs for ages, started off with the Col's & found these others. Had always believed in the Helter Skelter motive since I first stumbled on the original TV movie years & years ago on a Saturday afternoon of Channel 5 here in NJ. Years later, these blogs opened my eyes to these alternate theories regarding this crime & others, like the Son of Sam. I don't comment much as I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as many on here in regards to the case & all it's intricacies.
Who I'd like to have a discussion with? Bruce, definitely. I think he knows all about the why's. But Clem, also, to see if there is genuine remorse.
And, hell yeah, Yankees win!
I really enjoy the knowledge and diversity of thinking on this blog, and am fascinated by the back-and-forth it engenders. I always want to read what Grim has to say about anything, since he's very engaging and seems to have all the case details mastered. But the problem with commenters like him who can speak in shorthand about trial transcripts, is that they raise the bar for someone like me, who doesn't like to get into disputes or have my ideas jumped on, either rightly or otherwise, by those who know more. I have my opinions, but they are often changing, though I do have some core beliefs about what went down. In the end, I feel whatever happened was a turning point in our culture in some intrinsic way that merits study and comment.
My story is much like Peter's above, in that my interest in these kind of cases began as a kid following Son of Sam in the Daily News. I also read Maury Terry on that case and felt thoroughly soiled by the experience, as he mentions without any apparent basis one of Son of Sam's victims being a participant in a murder cult. There's a right and wrong way to study crime, and I think you guys mostly do it right. There's always a healthy amount of empathy and skepticism.
The murders themselves are horrid, and not what fascinate me most about the case. It's more the Spahn side of the story, the weird subculture that grew around Charlie and how a bizarre form of groupthink affected the various players to such a degree, both those that stayed and those who left. There's a story there I find more gripping than the crimes themselves, even though it was the crimes that matter most in the end. I almost feel the search for motive will never end; maybe because a clear motive was never there in the first place.
If I could interview anyone, it would be Catherine Gillies, a true believer who was there the whole time but apparently didn't go on the kill runs even though she expressed a willingness to, according to Sandy in the Hendrickson documentary. What stopped her, and why did she hang around the Hall of Justice and partake in all that trial madness until the end and beyond? I get the feeling she was a bit of an airhead, something that couldn't be said of Lynette, for example. But I suspect Lynette would rant a lot about trees and never explain a thing. Catherine might have some unique insight into the pecking order at Spahn's, and why people were so motivated by seemingly good intentions to do such evil things.
Bill Slocum said...
...the problem with commenters like him who can speak in shorthand about trial transcripts, is that they raise the bar for someone like me, who doesn't like to get into disputes or have my ideas jumped on, either rightly or otherwise, by those who know more.
Thank you, Bill for voicing that. The thing is that we have gotten our doors blown off here from time to time by newcomers to the story. Many times the newbie eye can see something that we've missed. We really do want participation from fresh points of view.
Lurking for many years on this and others. Thank you to those responsible for the content and conversation. I remember seeing the original HS movie on commercial television, maybe even the original broadcast. I was quite young. I remember hearing about this bogey man Charles Manson from time to time but wasn't truly fascinated by the case until Lynette Fromme escaped prison. I was in high school at the time and was interested in all things sixties anyway. I've been anywhere from interested to obsessed since. Read all the books. Watched all the movies. Repeat. Repeat.
I guess the person I'd most like to visit with is Madeline Cottage if she's still alive. At this point, the facts surrounding the demise of Zero and just how in the world it was swept under the rug by the police are more interesting to me than the other crimes. She would know.
A long time lurker until about a year ago when I started posting more. I became interested in TLB in 1969. But it wasn't until much later around 1988 that I really began to focus more diligently after discovery of some surprising things (to me personally). The person I'd like to chat with or interview the most would be Tex. Being at the heart of the murders, I'm not satisfied he has revealed all he knows including resolution of a lot of details we dicker about in this forum. Time for he and the others is getting short so if not myself, I'd like to see some enterprising millennials get on the case.
I too have been lurking around since the evil one was the Chief of the Blog. Every one is doing a great job keeping the discussion going, and although I may not agree with some motives it makes for a great debate. It was great having Mr. Hendrickson here for the time we did. I loved hearing from him 1st hand accounts and his take on the world as he knew it. I love reading the Col.s posts and opinions, since I lurked on his page also. As for whom I would like to sit down and talk with,..."Tex". I would like to look him in the eyes and gauge just how full of crap he actually is. To all the admins and posters. Keep up the great work.
I too have been lurking around since the evil one was the Chief of the Blog. Every one is doing a great job keeping the discussion going, and although I may not agree with some motives it makes for a great debate. It was great having Mr. Hendrickson here for the time we did. I loved hearing from him 1st hand accounts and his take on the world as he knew it. I love reading the Col.s posts and opinions, since I lurked on his page also. As for whom I would like to sit down and talk with,..."Tex". I would like to look him in the eyes and gauge just how full of crap he actually is. To all the admins and posters. Keep up the great work.
Hi Monica, This is a wonderful idea! I have been lurking around this wonderful site for years without saying a word.
Patricia Krenwinkel would be a good choice for an interview.
You might actually get something interesting out of her, unlike the other monster
Tex, who would probably never let the conversation travel far
away from his savior spiel. On the good side, I believe the Col. would be
informative and so much fun at a sitdown about the case.
Hi all, I pop in from time to time, I don't really have enough spare brain space to store all the relevant 20,000,000 necessary facts about the case to feel confident enough to post nowadays.
Personally I had some deaths in the family and I needed to focus on something that wasn't so dark for the soul.
That said I'm looking forward to reading Dianne Lake's book. A new primary source of fresh material is long overdue for everyone to pick apart. Really there should be two versions, one for casual readers and the other relentlessly fact checked on here until every memory was wrung out of the poor woman.
As to Monica's question, if the truth could be told, I guess Brenda would be of great interest to hear the truth from. She is often overlooked and has managed to steer a pretty much clear path through the saga. An honest account by Mary Brunner would also be fascinating covering from family year zero to sharing prison space with the Official Manson Girls, all of Bobby's trial flip flopping on being the star snitch or not, facing a possible murder rap and beating it and then getting like Brenda to just fade away and live a normal life.
if the truth could be told, I guess Brenda would be of great interest to hear the truth from. She is often overlooked and has managed to steer a pretty much clear path through the saga. An honest account by Mary Brunner would also be fascinating covering from family year zero to sharing prison space with the Official Manson Girls, all of Bobby's trial flip flopping on being the star snitch or not, facing a possible murder rap and beating it and then getting like Brenda to just fade away and live a normal life.
Couldn't agree more...
How wonderful to see so many new names! Don't be afraid to comment, the first couple of times may seem to be a bit intimidating but it doesn't take long to feel comfortable. I lurked at first, too.
Like Shaky Jake I would like to talk to Madeline Cottage. There is way more to Zero's death and I want to know what it is. I'd also like to know why law enforcement was so quick to say suicide but they have brought up Zero's death every time they say there are other "Manson murders".
And, like Astro Creep I have an affinity for the Zodiac case because it is unsolved.
Judging by the articulacy that every one of the lurkers and semi lurkers thus far have shown, we're missing out not hearing from you. Some of the histories of how you first got into the case, some of the reasons why certain characters from TLB would be interviewed, some of the reasons why some people feel shy or under confident about posting ¬> I'm just sitting here thinking "I'd love to hear more from these guys."
@CrisPOA ¬> I've never had any trouble understanding your written English. I would never have guessed any of your posts were written by someone for whom English is a second language.
christopher butche said...
I don't really have enough spare brain space to store all the relevant 20,000,000 necessary facts about the case to feel confident enough to post nowadays
When I first tentatively appeared, you were one of the people that was a mineful of great info, some great posts and thoughts that made the brain blink and then look again.
Bill Slocum said...
and seems to have all the case details mastered. But the problem with commenters like him who can speak in shorthand about trial transcripts, is that they raise the bar for someone like me, who doesn't like to get into disputes or have my ideas jumped on, either rightly or otherwise, by those who know more
I don't have all the details mastered. There are so many details that even all these years later, I still forget bits here and there or overlook bits, some of which seem to be too obvious to miss.
I'm just an ordinary bloke that likes reading about and discussing the case. There's nothing essentially different that I do from anyone else that isn't a research scholar, which is read what's available, think about it, try to make sense of it and comment what I think. There's no book or document or transcript that I've come across that isn't available out there. Most of the books I've read on the case, I heard about from either here or one of the other blogs. Simon Davis suggested asking LA county for a copy of the transcripts {they'll do them free if you make a formal request} which I did and at the same time Cielo made them available.
I agree that the bar has been raised but that's something that pre~existed any involvement from me. The various blogs that were about when I first started commenting in 2015 were treasure troves of bar raising minds and much of the time I didn't have a clue what people were talking about. That's partly what spurred me on to find out more. Also, there's a major part of me that is not content to take anyone's word for anything as the final word...I like to look into matters and rummage about and see what's there. Quite often the nuances that are part of life rear their head.
I really do understand being apprehensive about getting one's ideas and thoughts jumped on or trashed but in reality that's actually rather a minority sport. True, you do get the odd piranha swimming about the neighbourhood, but I've found that while there can sometimes be heated exchanges {and in truth, some of them are necessary}, most discussions are passionate and fair and generally civil. There are often more than two strands of opinion on many of the things that get discussed ~ if someone disagrees with your particular opinion, you're in good company !
Been lurking since 2007. I grew up in Orange County and was 14 when the murders happened. I started driving up to LA in about 1973. I've been to most of the tlb sites and graves. I've read a fair share of the usual books, but have more in my library to be read. I recommend Weird Scenes Inside the Canyon by David McGowen. A bit off topic is All for a Few Perfect Waves by David Rensin. Miki Dora knew Manson through Dennis Wilson, who, I believe, was the only Beach Boy who surfed. At parties Dora would steal the wallets from coats placed in a bedroom, go into a bathroom, take the money, and put the wallets in the toilet tank. I'm sure he taught Manson this. FYI Leslie did not place Rosemary's wallet in a black area. Geez it's near Spahn Ranch. If you go there do not miss the nearby Nethercutt Museum. Dora later met up with Manson at CMF Vacaville (it's a few miles up I80 from where I now live). Dora: Hey Charlie! Is that you? Manson: Miki! Surfer Boy. Is that you? Hey, Mick the Prick! Great party! (page 268)
I'd like to talk to Robert Evans or Michelle Phillips. They know a lot, too bad it'll probably go to the grave with them. To make myself useful I can post the definition of Helter Skelter that I found in a book. Forget origin unknown, it's Gaelic. It's a bit long, so I'll put it in another post.
Nice finally meeting you. Mike
Got this from How the Irish Invented Slang The Secret Language of the Crossroads by Daniel Cassidy (page 175) It's a bit repetitive:
Helter skelter,adv.,"In disordered haste: confusedly, tumultuously, pell-mell.(1593)... while helter has no explanation other than its suggestive sound and rhyme with skelter, the final element is probably based on skelte, to hasten, scatter hurriedly... The adjective meaning of disorderly or confused is first recorded in 1785; the noun about 1713." (Barnhart Dictionary of Etymology, 1988, 475.)
Ailteor scaoilte (pron. al-t'or' skilt'e, hal-t'or' skilt'e), a run amuck clown; an unconstrained wild prankster; a loose-limbed trickster; a joker running loose. The joker is wild! Ailteor, -ora (pron. h-al-t'or')n., a trickster a practical joker, one who plays pranks an "arch" fellow, a frivolous person, the clown in a circus: an acrobat. (Dineen Focloir Gaedhilge agus Bearla: Irish-English Dictionary,16; O Donaill Focloir Gaeilge-Bearla,Irish-English Dictionary,1977,19) Scaoilte (pron. skilt'e),p.p of scaoil, adj., scattered; broken loose, broken free, unconstrained, run-amuck; released,let go; loose-limbed. Madraidhe scaoilte, dogs a-loose, hounds run-amuck.
Ailteoir scaoilte spelled helter skelter is often used in English as a metaphorical adverb and adjective, meaning "disordered haste; a-loose, amuck, confusedly, tumultuously, pell-mell;" like a joker run wild or a run-amuck clown." Helter skelter is awild and crazy guy.
Helter Skelter. To run helter skelter, hand over head, in defiance of order. (Grose, Classical Dictionary of the Vulger Tongue, 1785,[1811].)
Helter-skelter have I rode to thee, and tydings do I bring. (Shakespeare, Henry IV, 1597, Act V, Scene III.)
I don't know if I count as a lurker. I've been reading since the beginning of Eviliz practically but commenting only occasionally. This is the only forum left that takes the truth seriously and has the means to do the research. It's really special. Monica this has been a really fun post. It's nice to see readers interact and participate. Way to go!
My dinner date would be Bobby. He had a few pretty interesting years there before it all blew up. I'd need to double the serum with him though.
Now to do something about this hangover.
I’ve been lurking for just a few months - I have been engrossed every evening reading through the articles on the blog. When I frontally reaches the end, I went back to the newest posts and started all over again. I don’t know anywhere near as much as all of you do on the case, so I don’t think I can contribute too much. I just find the whole case utterly fascinating, particularly from the perspective of the young women who were part of this family like no other. Even though they were living in the middle of second wave feminism, they all took on a subservient role. How did one man’s misogyny infect the whole family, especially the women? It is mind boggling! I would love to talk to Brenda. There was something about the way she held herself in the Manson documentary that I thought was so intense. Her charisma just ate up the screen.
Well that’s a good start!!! When I finally reached...
I guess I could be labeled a lurker, posting a handful of times. I had previously been o prolific poster on another related board which resulted in some unpleasant interactions offline as well as online.
I am also not as sharp on the case details as I one was and am likely to write something that i might later regret due to not fully engaging my brain.
But kudos to the core bloggers here for turning this place around and making it a great resource on everything relating to the case.
As for the one perso i would like speak with? I no longer have a buurning desire to with a specific person but would welcome ANYONE that had first hand interactions. I still find it a facinating subject, hence the reason for my lurking.
Me :-)
Hi. I've been reading the blog for years and years but I don't recall ever posting. Maybe once or twice? I've been in touch with the fine folks who run this place a few times and I recorded and shared the Tom O'Neill audio interview with you all. I wish I would have kept the stuff I shared elsewhere to share here instead, like some interesting real estate and probate records of the LaBianca's, and not so interesting stuff on the Van Houten's Manhattan Beach house, which are now seemingly lost forever. This blog has undergone a transformation for the better since the early days as I'm sure you would all agree, and I come back to check in multiple times a week now to see if there's something new. All of the contributors should be applauded for the hard work and thought they give to the content they provide us. Keep up the great work. To answer the OP's question, I would probably most like to speak to Lynette Fromme.
All the best,
JM
Well, Matt is off the hook since the Yanks will not go to the world series. Happy for Houston. They need some good.
As we move on to a new post, thanks to all the former lurkers for coming out of the closet. Great reading your posts and virtually meeting you. I plan to comment more often, and I hope you do too.
Thanks to everyone for being so welcoming. It feels very odd writing that on a blog about that investigates almost 50 year old murders. But, there are dicussions that need to happen. So we continue.
Special shout out to Grim. Your blog name mystifiies me sweetheart, but you seem to have a heart of gold.
Nice job Monica and thanks for the good news on Houston woohoo!
I was really just here to meet girls, but, like, it never seemed to happen for me the way it happened for everyone else. So now I lurk.
I’m a lurker from England , been into the case for 5 years . There are so many layers , I don’t think I will ever stop reading/watching information . I just can’t get enough . Tonight I have listened to ‘moments’ by Desert Sun 5 times before coming on here . Keep up the work everyone .
I have been a lurker for years. I love listening to all the ideas and theories you guys throw out here. It is hard coming up with one person that I would like to talk with but I think I would choose Bruce.
Hello all. I'm 51 years old, been studying the case for most of my life. I live on the east coast, so I don't get to see a lot of the landmarks and such, but I know a lot about the case, and the people involved. I just learned that William Garretson passed away, as well as Hendrickson. Anyway, just wanted to drop in and say hi.
Hello fellow lurkers! I have been obsessed with this case for most of my adult life. I remember reading Helter Skelter when I was around 14 and it being the first book to ever give me nightmares and really scare me. I'm an avid true crime fanatic (JonBenet, Scott Peterson, Menendez, JFK assasination), but nothing compares to my obsession with this case. I've been lurking around since I think 2009ish, never posting but have exchanged a few emails with a couple people. My dream is to sometime attend one of the tours, as I don't think my family would enjoy a vacation involving Manson related stops! :)
I have serious writers crushes on Matt and Saint, I love what they contribute, along with the insights everyone shares. This is the most informative blog out there for the research that I enjoy about the case and people involved. I think the psychology of it all is what keeps me wanting more.
If i could talk to anyone involved and know they would be honest, I would love to talk to Patricia or Mother Mary.
Keep up the good work all!
MHN: "I was really just here to meet girls, but, like, it never seemed to happen for me the way it happened for everyone else. So now I lurk."
Funniest comment i think i've ever read on this site
Good evening all, my name is Liz and I have been a lurker here for years now. I may have posted once in the last 4 years I have been following this blog.
I have been interested and reading about these crimes since I was 12 years old, I am now 29 years old soon to be 30. Fun fact about me is I lived off of Laurel Canyon in the San Fernando Valley, I was born and raised there. I now live in Orange County but my parents are still in the same home off of Laurel Canyon and Ventura Blvd. One of the reasons why I became so enthralled in the case is because I was so close geographically to most of the areas affected by the events that transpired.
I have been up to Cielo Dr. several times and always say that if I win the Lotto, I would like to build a house similar to the one that stood at Cielo Dr many years ago, floor plan included with the loft.
I appreciate all of the hard work that goes into running this site and thank all of the people that contribute to it.
Thank you all :)
Great post!
At the time this was originally posted, I was lurkin BUT- I've posted a couple of times since. Great blog and, a freakin great and diverse collection of people in the community. From the core folks that drive the (black) bus to the mainstays who give such interesting, informative and/or controversial feedback/input to those who wade in with a light step half fearful of becoming an object of ridicule...half super excited to finally chirp in...to those true lurkers who just take it all in for all it's glorious/ugly/mind-blowing/crazy/inept/kooky etc...bizarro Oooooh-Eeeee-Ooooohiness!
I saw and read HS in 1976 as an 11 year old. Went out and bought the 1976 Special Edition WHITE vinyl White Album and, went to town.
My friend's parents were acquaintances of Karlene Faith - I met her at a party they had but I had no idea who she was or whom she invited to board in her home at that time.
I played music and, from 1981 onward I toured the West Coast punk rock circuit coming in contact with a cast of freaks - wonderful for the most part - some of whom were sorta associated with the case and/or some principles from the case in some way or another, which was really interesting for a kid from Burnaby (suburb of Vancouver). In fact, one musician friend lived in Clubhouse 28 in Venice for a bit in 85-ish til 87-ish.
I spent the bulk of the summer of 87 stranded after a tour and, managed to secure a couch at a friend's place. That friend's apartment, in Sherman Oaks of all places, had the front directory entry of "Snake Lake" which freaked me out completely.
Then, there was the girl I dated that lived in the same building as Crispin Glover...
This blog gives me the wonderfully awesome feeling that all of these events have throughout my life. It is never dull. It can be shocking. It can be the source of many "Uh-Huh" moments and, more than a few chuckles.
Thanks for that!
Seriously!
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