I do not know why he is at the Medical Facility. They do have general population prisoners but the prison is mostly medical orientated.
Bobby has a website that showcases his music and art. While there are interviews, mostly older ones, the focus of the website is his creativity. He explicitly states that the website is not for "the unfortunate associations that haunt my past." Prisoners do not have internet access, the site is provided and run by friends and family.
There is a music page where you can buy his music either by getting a CD or getting a download. There is an art tab that offers 85 different drawings that can come as prints or be put on merchandise like tote bags, cell phone cases, greeting cards, shirts and even home accent pieces like throw pillows or a shower curtain!
I could not find anything that hints at where the money goes that he presumably makes from sales. Certainly there is a cost to produce whatever product that is sold but I doubt that he's creating and selling things to break even. The thought did occur to me that he would like to show the parole board that he can indeed support himself with his music and art so that's why this website offers so many things for sale. If you remember at Bobby's last hearing he was chided by the board for thinking he could make a living from his creative endeavors and they told him he should have learned a trade while imprisoned.
Bobby also has a Facebook page.
So, what's the general consensus? Is Bobby going to get his long desired parole, likely to be shut down by the governor like Bruce and Leslie? Or is the parole board going to shoot him down again and tell him he still has some improving to do?
40 comments:
Big fan. I have all his albums. Matt introduced me to his music.
Here's a sample : Bobby Vinton - Too Fat Polka
Parole likely denied. If paroled, Guv denial a near-certainty. No evidence yet LVH killed. Strong evidence Davis participated in at least one death. Virtually certain Beausoleil did one murder. Will Guv'nor "Beige" be consistent ?
You misunderstood, Ziggy. I tend to favor Jimmy Sturr!
Bobby used to have a whole section of letters from people on his site- which he posted with answers. He took all of that down.
I think it took him awhile to catch on, but that he eventually realized, or was told, that smart people would see that he would often contradict himself from one answer to another while trying to show off or brag. Lairs tend to do that. They only care about making themselves sound great in each individual moment. They don't think big picture of how what they say in the moment connects with other things they have said about the same subject in the past. But when you start to put your words on paper- well then they are preserved to be checked and compared. I would bet that has as much to do with why that came down as any attempt to distance himself from Family and crime.
Bobby has remained a cocky bastard all thee years. But, he has stayed true to who he really is as well and that is about the only thing I respect about him and what he did with his life. No false religion or " I found God" for Bobby. I believe he is the smartest, most grounded and talented of the entire group who were locked up. I am sorry for his loss.
But Bobby goes nowhere and for that I am glad :)
Enough already! Let him go!
Robert C said...
Parole likely denied. If paroled, Guv denial a near-certainty. No evidence yet LVH killed
I think there is. She admits over the years to stabbing Rosemary LaBianca 14 to 16 times to the back and bum. Only 13 of the stab wounds per se were post mortem. That means that at least one of Leslie's stabs occurred while Mrs LaBianca was still alive, if we go by Leslie's word alone. But 36 of Rosemary's 46 wounds were to the back {and many of the back wounds were not post mortem} and bum and that one, which sliced her spine, was a fatal blow. We don't know which of Leslie's stabs did what or that the fatal back blow wasn't administered by her. After all, she told Marvin Part back in '69
"I mean, I lost control. I went completely nuts that moment. It was hard to get it through. Like when I thought of stabbing, I didn’t really have any idea in my mind, but it’s a real feeling. It’s — it’s not even like cutting a piece of meat. It’s much tougher. And it was — I had to use both hands and all my pressure, all my strength behind it to get it in.
And so once I started, the feeling was so weird that I just kept doing it.
Like I say, I did it about ten times, I think."
That's evidence of sorts. The "no evidence" line can't be justified for Leslie. Whereas it could be justified for Susan Atkins not stabbing Sharon Tate. Tex said he did it, Pat has never said Susan did it, Susan only ever told three cell mates she did it and said she did it to look big in jail and had begun denying it by the Grand Jury, when she had immunity and nothing to lose. She may have done it but a case can be made for her not having done it.
St Circumstance said...
Bobby used to have a whole section of letters from people on his site- which he posted with answers. He took all of that down
Yeah, I remember reading that back in around 2007 or 8. I came upon it by accident as I was actually doing some research on the band It's a beautiful day and their violinist David LaFlamme {the guy that had two wives that were both called Linda LaFlamme !} who had previously played in a band with Bobby that sounded interesting, conceptually.
Bobby gave really in depth answers if I remember rightly and a number of people that wrote in questions were actually quite challenging. I thought he was pretty gutsy to lay himself open like that. His life was really under the microscope. I was diverted for a while before going back to It's a beautiful day ! By the time I got into the blogs last year and I went back to his site, all the blurb had gone.
he would often contradict himself from one answer to another
That probably sums up the Charles Manson saga and it's participants as well as any. Mind you, John Lennon did that all the time. He would criticize Paul Mac for doing a solo track within the Beatles, be asked if he had ever done it, say he hadn't, then be asked about "Julia" in the next breath and talk about it like he'd not said all that had led up to it !
I think it's part of the human condition.
Grim if you still have the URL for Bobby's old site try going to the Wayback Machine to look up his blog. The current website began in 2013.
David LaFlamme was in Bobby's band Orkustra back in 1966/67. The dates and places they played together are here-
http://thesanfranciscosound.blogspot.com/2010/02/orkustra-performance-list-1966-1967_25.html
St Circumstance said...
Bobby has remained a cocky bastard all these years. But, he has stayed true to who he really is as well and that is about the only thing I respect about him and what he did with his life. No false religion or " I found God" for Bobby
That sort of implies that those who have found God are not being true to who they really are and that being true to who one really is is a fixed state that is caught in one moment in time and never changes. Whereas, for better or for worse, I have observed that many people in that situation were not only being true to who they really were at the time, but that the infusion of God keeps one on the road to being who one really is, with so many layers and depth still to be discovered, not least because God doesn't tolerate people lying about or to themselves. It's bleedin' hard at times to face one's flaws.
As Cockburn once sang, "constant change is the space we're in...."
I believe he is the smartest, most grounded and talented of the entire group who were locked up
I guess that depends on where those talents lay. Artistically, perhaps. I wonder about him being well grounded though. I might have agreed with that had I not read "The Garbage People" again. I was actually surprised at his life in that period before he hooked up with Leslie. He was a thieving so and so in an era of supposed brotherhood and a new way, which isn't in itself an issue ~ but it is when he paints over that to successive parole boards looking at his pre ~ incarceration criminality to present a picture of a solid citizen that wasn't involved in any muckin' abaaaahhhhttt outside of he usual countercultural shenanigans. I have wondered for a while whether the various members of the parole boards have been aware of the contents of that book.
That said, Angry Anderson at the last parole hearing seemed really biased against Bobby and I thought it was callous to not allow him to explain how being stabbed in prison had brought him to a deep realization that he may not otherwise have had. Anderson also made some statements that were so prejudiced that it tells you that sometimes, the people hearing these matters are pretty suspect and are out to make it particularly difficult for the inmate.
But even if Bobby gets a pass {that is assuming it actually goes ahead} I reckon the guv'nor will block it. I think they are all going to have to go through a few "yes" decisions before it becomes untenable for the guv to overturn the decision.
@DebS,
as ever, thanks !
I believe his chances are extremely unlikely. he would need to get past CCR section 2402 (c)(1): which states that a circumstance tending to show unsuitability includes whether the inmate’s offense was committed in a particularly “heinous, atrocious or cruel manner.”
Under this 'unsuitability circumstance' (there are others) these factors are considered:
(A) Multiple victims were attacked, injured or killed in the same or separate incidents.
(B) The offense was carried out in a dispassionate and calculated manner, such as an execution-style murder.
(C) The victim was abused, defiled or mutilated during or after the offense.
(D) The offense was carried out in a manner which demonstrates an exceptionally callous disregard for human suffering.
(E) The motive for the crime is inexplicable or very trivial in relation to the offense.
It seems to me that he will have problems with B-E.
St Circumstance said...
I believe he is the smartest, most grounded and talented of the entire group who were locked up.
Agreed, I read dammed near everyone of those Q & A on BB page back then. I was really impressed. I'm not good at detecting a line of BS from truth at the time I read or listen to people. Usually takes me time to figure out if what I heard/read was true or not. That said he really came off as sincere in all his responses. Maybe he is just a true psychopath and able to pretend to have empathy for others when actually he does not.
Guess I'll never know.
Do you know if those are on line anywhere or gone for good ?
Thanks SaintC
Any time Bobby- hope all is well :)
I do not know if they can be found anywhere else these days. I have not come across them, although I haven't really tried in a while. I went back to his site for a post i did awhile back and noticed they were gone. I did a little poking around at the time- but assumed he hid them for a specific reason of some type, and don't know why anyone else would have archived them??
Grimtraveller said "I think there is. She admits over the years to stabbing Rosemary LaBianca 14 to 16 times ... ".
There are degrees of likelihood and probabilities, yes, but like I said, no evidence yet. She was an accessory for sure. Then one could measure her intentions at the time .... to kill or to comply with peer pressure and make punctures or .... according to her she was going a little or more batty at the time as she hit the bottom of her youthful soul.
Beuasoleil may also have been under youthful pressure 'to do something' either as a direct, even threatening, hint or trying to meet peer expectations (or both) or ....
Robert C said...
There are degrees of likelihood and probabilities, yes, but like I said, no evidence yet
The onus is really on those believing there to be no evidence to demonstrate categorically that she did not kill. I think the evidence of her own mouth and the physical findings make that impossible.
For the record, I think LVH has turned much of her life around brilliantly. I also agree with you about peer pressure and drugs. But I think she helped commit murder in a way that was far more than that of an accessory. Her intent, desire and subsequent action, not to mention the lesser amount of post mortem wounds sink Leslie and it's as well to accept that and acknowledge the good she has done subsequently rather than take the line that there's no proof she did what she did. In a real sense, the physical findings have called Leslie out.
Bobby said...
Do you know if those are on line anywhere or gone for good ?
Try here. If it works, don't thank me, thank DebS.
Grimtraveller said: " .... rather than take the line that there's no proof she did what she did."
There's proof that she participated but none that she murdered via striking the fatal blow. Therefore she can not be solely declared a murderess, only that she was legally part of a collective that murdered with individual assignment often difficult to determine without confessions.
Robert C said...
There's proof that she participated but none that she murdered via striking the fatal blow
Which also applies to Pat both nights and Tex in regard to Rosemary and Abigail. But isn't it rather going round in circles; there's no proof that she didn't strike the fatal blow. Individual assignment to specific blows are virtually impossible given that Rosemary was stabbed by 3 people and received 6 wounds that were fatal.
I am, however, interested in where you're coming from with the statement that there's no evidence that she killed. She might even disagree with you on that one.
Would you apply the same statement to the killers of Shorty ? I'm genuinely curious, not trying to be awkward. What is the actual point that you are making in using No evidence yet LVH killed as the bolster ? Do you feel her and Bruce have received a raw deal as you use the phrase of Bruce Strong evidence Davis participated in at least one death ?
grimtraveller said...
But 36 of Rosemary's 46 wounds were to the back {and many of the back wounds were not post mortem} and bum and that one, which sliced her spine, was a fatal blow. We don't know which of Leslie's stabs did what or that the fatal back blow wasn't administered by her.
The fatal "blow" that lacerated her spine was to the neck, not the back. The neck is quite a ways from the buttocks, wouldn't you say? Perhaps it's not that far a distance, for someone who talks out of their ass on a regular basis.
Now go do some more Googling and get back to me.
grimtraveller said...
Rosemary was stabbed by 3 people and received 6 wounds that were fatal.
Use the typo excuse, Luke.
I'm not sure what you are on about.
Everyone who got in that car on night #2 is guilty as sin- at least of conspiracy to commit murder. It really doesn't matter if they struck a 'fatal blow'. If you drive the car and your buddies shoot the liquor store clerk you are as guilty as them. If you plot to kill the mayor and drive the car, you are as guilty as he who pulls the trigger. There is absolutely no doubt and when someone actually dies well, that leads to a long stint at the state's expense- in fact- forever.
The case for murder as to all the defendants was 'circumstantial', except perhaps Watson. There is no eye witness, few fingerprints and really, no murder weapons save a gun, which again has no fingerprints (that I recall...).
It boils down to this: three people went in...Rosemary and Leno were murdered. Who else could have done it. That is Bugliosi's case and due to the conspiracy it was very effective. Everything else comes from what was said elsewhere and after the fact.
@Dreath - Sir Correctalot (Grim) was, as usual, spewing inaccuracies. That's the extent of my participation. I told him what the first one was. The second one, he's going to have to use his Google SuperPowers to figure out.
To be clear, there were multiple stab wounds to Rosemary that would be considered fatal, none of which were in the lower back/buttocks area. Grim's claim that Leslie may be responsible for administering the stab wound that severed Rosemary's spine is pure horseshit, and isn't backed up by the facts of this case.
As long as BB keeps blabbing & blaming Gary Hinman for his own death, he isn't going to go anywhere.
I think it's a 99% chance his parole will be denied. Even if it were to be granted, the governor will overturn and deny it which in my opinion is not fair. I think the Manson murders where horrible but I also think most of the defendants have honestly changed and that they will never be given fairness with the parole board. Just my opinion though personally.
Roger Adams said...
I also think most of the defendants have honestly changed and that they will never be given fairness with the parole board
With Bruce and Leslie, the recent parole boards have been fair. It's the Guv'nor whose fairness may be continually under the microscope.
ziggyosterberg said...
Grim's claim that Leslie may be responsible for administering the stab wound that severed Rosemary's spine is pure horseshit, and isn't backed up by the facts of this case
It's not Grim's claim but that of Vincent Bugliosi. He wrote "by the time I finished my cross examination on this, Leslie had admitted that Rosemary might still have been alive when she stabbed her; and that she not only stabbed her in the buttocks and possibly the neck, but 'I could have done a couple on the back'. (As I'd later remind the jury, many of the back wounds were not post mortem, while one, which severed Rosemary LaBianca's spine, would have been in and of itself fatal)".
Viewing the autopsy report brought home some things I'd not really noticed before, such as there being 8 wounds that were considered to be fatal and not, as Bugliosi stated, 6. What was also interesting was that only one of the fatal blows was at the front of the body ~ the other 7 were to the back part, one being the one Ziggy kindly corrected me on, the one at the neck, another very close by and the other 5 being on Rosemary's actual back as opposed to back part of the body. The report states it and shows it on a drawing; it actually looks worse for Leslie in that regard. Not only could she have stabbed the neck, by her own words, she could have been responsible for some of the fatal blows on the back of the body. There were seven after all, all in places she said she could have stabbed.
for someone who talks out of their ass on a regular basis
My my, we are sharp on this bright day. Mind you don't cut yourself.....
To be clear, there were multiple stab wounds to Rosemary that would be considered fatal, none of which were in the lower back/buttocks area
Did I actually say that ?
Rosemary was stabbed by 3 people and received 6 wounds that were fatal
Use the typo excuse, Luke
That should read "8 wounds."
But either way, I don't see how Robert C's point about there being no evidence LVH killed can stand up. She'd've been done on conspiracy in any event, even if she'd just wiped the prints but she actually handled weaponry and went even further by actively stabbing. And as has been pointed out before, the Family didn't have a great track record when it came to identifying when their victims were dead.
Grim, I can't tell if you're a troll or just a passive-aggressive pussy.
Has it ever occurred to you that the people who come out here to comment, like
Robert C, may not want to be harangued by an insufferable know-it-all, just because they express an opinion?
Whatever.
Keep on copy/pasting & Googling that massive inferiority complex of yours away. You've found your niche.
Pontificate on, you Didier Drogba looking retard.
Grim - *legally* both LVH and Davis are murderers. In *actuality* we don't know if they struck the fatal blows which is the context I was using.
The 'preponderance of evidence' (a legal term worded differently in different US States) suggests LVH did not strike the fatal wound or ... low probability. It's possible she did but we don't know that based on interrogation, confession, the coroner's report and the area of Rosemary she 'worked' on.
Ditto for Davis although in his case the evidence is more compelling (or likely) due to the circumstances (striking the guy in the head 'once' according to him).
In comparison the preponderance of evidence against Beausoleil murdering Hinman is much stronger.
This is the stuff that prosecutors, judges and juries must ponder because they were not 'there'.
But it's something we'll never know for sure so my initial statement reflected that low probability thing unless she clearly comes out now and says for sure she remembers stabbing her in the neck severing the spine, an artery or whatever.
Just the way I see it. I was 'alive' when it all happened (born around the middle of the last century) but I wasn't 'there' ;-)
Robert C said: "The 'preponderance of evidence' (a legal term worded differently in different US States)...."
You use this term of art several times.
Let's please be a bit careful. Let's remember the 'preponderance standard' is a 'civil' law standard. The criminal standard for guilt is 'beyond a reasonable doubt'. We can look at anything we want with the preponderance standard (it means 'more likely then not') but that does not reach the level of proof needed for a guilty verdict. But it can confuse.
In fact, that is one of the aspects of this case that has always required me to give Bugliosi begrudging respect. He used what is a very 'circumstantial case' to convict the lot. Again, the only evidence he really had was three people went into a house and came out and two people were found dead in that house. Therefore they killed them (because Manson told them to....sort of, kinda, maybe).
You can for simplicity say preponderance is 51+% sure: more probable then not.
Beyond a reasonable doubt is like 99% sure.
ziggyosterberg said...
I can't tell if you're a troll or just a passive-aggressive pussy.....that massive inferiority complex of yours......you Didier Drogba looking retard.....
Monty Yo ho ho.
You didn't control that bile very long, did you ?
Try a reputable pharmacy.
Has it ever occurred to you that the people who come out here to comment, like Robert C, may not want to be harangued by an insufferable know-it-all, just because they express an opinion?
Has it ever occurred to you that some people enjoy conversation, are up for a bit of questioning about their opinions now and then and that Robert C is quite capable of answering for himself as he has shown. He's a big boy, me old James Jewel. He's not in need of being defended by Most honourable Ziggy, Denizen of the Deep.
Pontificate on
Just the knowledge that you'll hang on my every "pont" is an inspiration in itself, me old Ziggster.
ziggyosterberg said...
Big fan
Aw, shucks....
Matt said...
You misunderstood, Ziggy
Shocker !
At that moment, he was reminded that he was just a lowly immigrant labourer, and that his pseudo-intellectual act wasn't fooling anyone.
So he retreated to his safe place, Google, and thought of the songs of Cockburn, but tried very hard to forget one in particular : "People see through you".
"This is just like what happened at homerecording.com", he lamented.
Dreath said -- "Let's please be a bit careful. Let's remember the 'preponderance standard' is a 'civil' law standard. The criminal standard for guilt is 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.
Dreath - I totally agree and know the difference but was using it metaphorically to help explain to Grim what I meant in my initial post. Perhaps I should have used more common language like "more/less evidence and/or probability".
Dreath said: "He used what is a very 'circumstantial case' to convict the lot.
Agree about Bugs, although on an individual basis there's more or less compelling evidence (or preponderance thereof) and not a fixed statistic like "51+%" which was my point to Grim with regards to the odds of Beausoleil getting parole; that the evidence of him having directly murdered (the fatal blow) is somewhat stronger that that for LVH (on a number of levels). Therefore if the parole boards and the Guv'nor (if it gets that far) are consistent there's a low probability of him getting paroled. That is, lower than for LVH who got stymied by the Guv.
Bobby's hearing was scheduled for 8:30 this morning, there should have been a decision by now. Nothing online yet, though.
Denied according to cielodrive.com
Robert C, my comment was not really 'directed' at you or your comments. It just worries me when we use 'legal-eze".
By the way, I agree with you about Van Houten.
Bobby said, "Maybe he is just a true psychopath and able to pretend to have empathy for others when actually he does not."
Oh, in my opinion, there is no maybe about that.
I think BB is a true psychopathic sociopath through and though.
grimtravelor said "Her intent, desire and subsequent action, not to mention the lesser amount of post mortem wounds sink Leslie and it's as well to accept that and acknowledge the good she has done subsequently rather than take the line that there's no proof she did what she did. In a real sense, the physical findings have called Leslie out."
TRUE THAT! Also, I think if LuLu took more responsibility for her part instead of always down playing it, ala 'I stabbed her after she was dead,' she'd seem way more credible.
I have always thought that was a cop-out
John Seger said...
I think if LuLu took more responsibility for her part instead of always down playing it, ala 'I stabbed her after she was dead,' she'd seem way more credible.
I have always thought that was a cop-out
To be fair to Leslie, I think she does take responsibility. It's not Leslie that says she should be freed because she stabbed someone that was already dead, it's usually her supporters or bloggers. And since the late summer or early fall of '69, she has been remarkably consistent about the person already dead thing. She told Dianne Lake she had stabbed someone that was already dead back in the days when the Family was still together and there were no arrests on the horizon. Bear in mind that it's what she told Dianne that ultimately sunk her because there was no independent corroboration of her even having been at Waverly that could be used against her.
Then she told Marvin Part in late '69 "I’m positive she was dead. She was just laying there, like the man was, like I say, he was gurgling; and she was just laying there.
She didn’t even make a moan or a groan. I didn’t feel her, you know, her pulse, or anything..."
During the trial, before Bugliosi got her to admit that Mrs LaBianca may have been alive, Maxwell Keith asked her if Rosemary appeared to be dead and she reiterated that she was just lying there.
That I go to certain lengths to demonstrate that Leslie at least stabbed a body that wasn't dead doesn't conflict with my belief that she thought Mrs L was dead. She appears to have genuinely believed that.
As for downplaying it, I think all she has tended to do is explain how it came to be, how she was influenced by Charlie and told to do what Tex told her, ordered by Tex to "get to it," how she wanted to be like Pat, the role that psychedelics and the countercultural thinking of the times played, her own anger because of her forced abortion etc. She's often asked how she ended up where she did; she tells the asker. I don't hear her blaming, I hear her putting the factors she's aware of into context.
Robert C said...
*legally* both LVH and Davis are murderers. In *actuality* we don't know if they struck the fatal blows which is the context I was using.
The 'preponderance of evidence' (a legal term worded differently in different US States) suggests LVH did not strike the fatal wound or ... low probability. It's possible she did but we don't know that based on interrogation, confession, the coroner's report and the area of Rosemary she 'worked' on
It's a hard one because she herself stated that she could have done some in the neck and "a couple" on the back which somewhat broadens the area she "worked" on. At trial, though she admitted stabbing, at one point she said she could not remember if she stabbed before or after Rosemary was lying on the ground.
Back in around 2002 one can see the dilemma she was still in in terms of accepting for herself where she stood as far as 'actual' murder went when she told Larry King that she didn't take a life and that Mrs LaBianca was already dead. She did go on to say that by that point it ceased to make any difference as she accepted her part in proceedings. But in the years subsequent to that, she's gone somewhat further in acknowledging that she did take a life.
ziggyosterberg said...
At that moment, he was reminded that he was just a lowly immigrant labourer, and that his pseudo-intellectual act wasn't fooling anyone.
So he retreated to his safe place, Google, and thought of the songs of Cockburn, but tried very hard to forget one in particular : "People see through you".
"This is just like what happened at homerecording.com", he lamented.
The press is against me ! ☺ ☺ ☺
ziggyosterberg said...
you Didier Drogba looking retard
I guess I should be happy that I wasn't compared in looks to Lovelace Watkins !!
Sir Correctalot (Grim) was, as usual, spewing inaccuracies
"You've already told three lies !"
Thank you for the knighthood your majesty. I politely decline.
Post a Comment