I will be passing through the Farmersville/Copeville TX area (Watson's childhood stomping grounds) on Tuesday Oct 11 to take a few pics and maybe chat with some of the locals. If any readers are within driving distance and would like to meet me there shoot me an email.
54 comments:
They named a town after that Facebook game?
Put back the original title of this thread, dammit!
"Farmville" sounded less poop-butty.
BTW, what do they do for fun in Farmersville?
Charlie knows the answer to that question.
Actually for the first 30 seconds it said "Famville". Sounded like a gay bar.
LOL. You have to make sure to get it right, Matt. Otherwise Tex will contact you with a photocopy of changes that he wants made. (see Tex's "Tex approved" Wikipedia)
I remember Farmertown/Copeland from the parts of "Will You Die For Me" that I quickly scrolled through.
For those of you who haven't read it, here's a brief summary of Tex's book :
"I had a pretty good thing goin', until I went on a stabbing spree. But it wasn't my fault for doing that - it was Charlie's. And then I met Jesus. Now I'm Mr. Jesus. My stabbing days are long behind me. I'm a totally awesome person now. The End."
Tex is the last on the list of Notable People listed in the Farmersville Wikipedia article. He's right after Audie Murphy.
America's most decorated war hero had to come from the same town as one of America's most notorious killers. It's all part of the "cosmic unconsciousness" according to Miller (movie: Repo Man).
Here's an example: let's say you are thinking of a plate 'o shrimp. Then out of nowhere you see a plate, shrimp, or plate 'o shrimp, out of the blue. Aint no explanation, no point in looking for one neither.
I use Miller's POS theory as a guiding principle, and recommended everyone do the same.
Farf, that's kind of weird that you mention that. Repo Man was my favorite movie as a kid. That scene with Miller and Otto standing at the garbage can always pops into my head from time to time, out of the blue. And now you mention it. OO-ee-oo.
FARFLUNG: If you think TEX and AUDIE are a crazy mix Google "Farmerville, Texas and Muslim"
Here is where the Final Battle between the Jesus people and Islam may actually begin.
So maybe TEX (or HIS crazy mother) is the one who actually came up with the idea of Helter Skelter.
So I did as RH suggested and googled "farmersville texas muslim".
Third listing on the page says:
In the town of Farmersville, Texas—a far-flung suburb of Dallas
I need to go for a walk and clear my head...
During your walk, should you come across a plate, or shrimp... You've been forewarned.
Don't despair the "lattice of coincidences" Matt, there's no point in lookin' for one.
WTF is SEEPAGE!!..I couldnt read it after that !!..Good luck in Weirdsville Matt :)
penny lane I wondered that, too. I looked up Muslim funeral traditions and it doesn't look like there is a casket involved. The body is washed at least three time but if still dirty it can be washed more but should be an odd number of times. Then the body is placed in a shroud consisting of three layers of cloth wrapped a specific way. The body is placed in a grave on its right side facing towards Mecca, it is then covered with stones so that there is no direct contact between the body and the soil. That's the gist of it.
Matt, when you hit Farmersville/Copeville, make sure to leave a sign. Something witchy.
OMG, (1) Climate change, WE can deal with it. (2) Donald Trump, what's a little nuclear radiation, BUT (3) "Seepage" Help US Jesus !
OK MR. MATT: Your mission is to hide behind the wrapped body and collect some of the SEEPAGE for further examination back at the lab. FILM your studies and POST the results HERE on the blog. Then give the SAINT 3 whole POSTS to describe what HE makes of it all.
Robert the traditional Muslim burial is akin to today's "green burials" which are becoming more popular due to reduced costs and a concern for the environment. It's just the type of thing that any card carrying Manson Family member should consider! :)
http://blogs.lawyers.com/2013/09/are-green-burials-legal/
Outstanding!!
Thanks Debs....gotta love that seepage! Prolly explains why Stabbie is such a freak....all that seepage !!
Zelda Formaldehyde said... Matt, when you hit Farmersville/Copeville, make sure to leave a sign. Something witchy.
Zelda,
That was funny!
Matt, Nelson did this. I bought the tape. I'll try to find it and send it to you. I believe it was this trip where he confronted Watson's mother and he's telling her slice by slice what her son did, and she's repeatedly saying "My boy has personality plus. My boy has personality plus." It really shows Nelson's narcissism but it was interesting to hear what the local's think of Watson. As with most of Nelson's work it says more about him then what he's researching.
I was trying to be funny DEB: Penny and her "seepage phobia" had be falling over with laughter.
NOW - what IF the Muslim cemetery is NOT really for Muslims to be buried in, but the victims of Black Muslims who win the Final Battle as Paul Watkins described it, in HIS explanation of Helter Skelter?
BUT don't mind ME crazy thoughts, I'm just getting ready for MY Q & A at the New Beverly Cinema theater in Hollywood on August 9th after the 7:30 showing of MANSON.
Jesus Robert thats the first sympton of marble SEEPAGE...!...SEEPAGE is my new favorite word !!
Penny could you imagine the seepage that woman in the pink t-shirt would create? The grass in that part of the cemetery would be thick and green!
This was a great way to start my week. Most of you have a wonderful sense of humor.
Ya know, this "seepage" thing - IF known about by the Donald, could bring the whole 2016 ELECTION back to reality or the greatest comedy SHOW on earth.
I mean like "That's it folks, forget about Hilary's LIES and HER emails." And "the WALL is nothing compared to the new Muslim THREAT." "It's now SEEPAGE we all have to worry about. When kids go skate boarding in the streets, they are going to slip and slide all over the place, and that can be VERY dangerous. More dangerous than terrorism. So let's make America GREAT again - "NO more SEEPAGE." "NO more SEEPAGE." "I WIN."
I just saw this post and cannot believe you people are not taking this issue more seriously.
You either have your heads buried in the sand or are allowing the agenda of the liberal media to seep into your brains.
For God's sake, many of you already have seepage in your basements and crawl spaces! One good, hard rain and the storm drains will back up. We will have Muslims everywhere! Then who will be laughing?
RH is right! There is only one man who can stop this threat to our national security. A man with experience building (retaining) walls. Stop RIS (Radical Islamic Seepage)!
Silly me went for another look...I think its to late Matt..it would appear seepage has already commenced ..kinda looks like rolls of fat ! But its defo seepage...
Her boobs are now in her britches, due to seepage.
Donald Trump weighs in on "seepage" controversy
Beauders said ... "Matt, Nelson did this. I bought the tape. I'll try to find it and send it to you. I believe it was this trip where he confronted Watson's mother and he's telling her slice by slice what her son did..."
Nelson is singularly the biggest A-hole to comment/write on this case. He absolutely revels in the gore of the case and the pain caused to those involved. A nauseating individual to say the least.
In all seriousness, Jews aren't much different. They don't embalm and they bury in a non-laminated pine box with holes drilled through the bottom to aid in decomposition. Nobody worries about seepage there.
Texas Residents Threaten To Dump Pigs Blood On Site Of Proposed Muslim Cemetery
This is going to be an interesting side-trip.
Robert I was trying to be funny, too. Humor and sarcasm are tough to get across in writing. SEEPAGE, it's the word of the week!!!
First showing of MANSON tomorrow night at the Beverly Cinema is SOLD out, but there is another at 10:15 P.M.
BTW: Great ZIG, now Hilary has jumped in the controversy and claims THEY (she and Obama) have the "seepage" under control. They are sending in secret agent "Matt the Mop" under cover to access the issue.
Can't make it tomorrow. Can someone get Clem's autograph for me?
Robert Hendrickson said...
So maybe TEX (or HIS crazy mother) is the one who actually came up with the idea of Helter Skelter
I would never call your Mum crazy for taking parental responsibility seriously and trying to instill some grounding beliefs in her children, even if I didn't agree with them or thought they were kooky. It would be a different matter if she had abandoned, neglected, abused or colluded in abuse of her child. I'd refer to her in much stronger language.
I think you semi frequently give Mrs Watson a bad press and unfairly so, primarily because of the actions of her son, almost as if his murderous rampaging were her fault.
Or at least, that's the way it comes across to me.
Yeah, don't be too hard on Mizzuz Watson. She was a good Texas momma raising her redneck son. Who went out to California and got all crazy, taking dope and running with them freaks and hippie girls.
He'd have been fine if he stayed in Copeville.
Who can tell ?
But it certainly throws open the question of "to what extent is a parent responsible for their child's misdemeanours in life and for that matter, their successes ?" Although the two Charles' ended up in exactly the same place, the input of their Mums seem worlds apart. Their early surroundings don't, though.
BRUCE Davis said: It's ALL ABOUT KNOCKING-up MAMMA'S attention.
TEX's mamma was a Jesus freak, meaning she was "obsessed" with HER religion and stuffed it down her young son's throat.
At the TATE house massacre, TEX (in charge) announced to HIS victims: I'm here to do the DEVIL's work.
NOW, if YOU think it was really ALL about doing Charlie Manson's business, maybe YOU are utilizing a different mathematical system than I am. It's kind'a like the Rubic's cube. YOU can twist and turn it's sides any which way so that a color pattern emerges - that FITs YOUR liking.
Blaming MOTHER for ANTHING negative is NOT popular within ANY culture, cause that means ANYONE can be Fucked for life - from the very beginning to the END. IN short, YOU can be DOOMED forever, PERIOD.
THEN, Quintin Tarentino brought up the issue, at the Beverly Cinema MANSON showing: What was Charles Manson's actual involvement at the TATE house massacre? WE know he was directly involved in the LaBianca killings, Shorty's murder and Gary Hinman's, BUT what about TATE's ?
Because the word "Pig" was written in blood on the front door, Charlie Manson ordered the massacre ? Because, Terry Melcher once lived there, the "house" represented rejection to Manson.
Because the "house" represented the RICH establishment to MANSON, it had to be the FIRST target for Helter Skelter?
There is a guy on America's got Talent, that can make a Rubic's Cube turn out ANY way HE wants it to. AND we are ALL our parent's Rubic Cube. IF you don't get that, Obama will LEND you $75,000 to go to school to LEAN that. Charlie may have TAUGHT young'ins how to murder, BUT YOUR President TAUGHT you how to be "conned" out of your hard earned $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. So maybe it's really ALL about "Who's YOUR bad guy" ?
Robert,
Good name-drop there...and I don't blame you for it, but why are QT's apparent doubts about Manson's culpability for the Cielo Drive murders especially relevant or insightful?
The question marks as represented my froth up plenty o' controversy but mightn't there be some evidence, both circumstantial and witness evidence, corroborated by quite a few people, that Charlie told each individual in the Cielo Drive murder group how to get ready, where to go, and what to do when they got there?
It's not a very big leap to blame the Tate murders on the entire responsible group, including Manson, not just the miserable shits that actually did the killing.
It is a very, very big leap, IMO, to suppose that Tex, Linda, Susan, and Patricia ventured out to brutally murder a house full of people on their own.
FLIP: QT was NOT doubting MANSON's culpability regarding the TATE issue - HE merely brought up a legal issue concerning "conspiracy" charges and asked for my opinion.
LBJ was NOT "directly" involved in the KILLING of women and children in Vietnam and most doubt HE even specifically ordered the KILLING of women and children, BUT he did "order" the KILLING of "communists" in order to KEEP North Vietnam SEPARATE from South Vietnam, thus preventing the reunification of a foreign country. This resulted in the Mi Lai Massacre, which included the KILLING of women and children.
One could say that Charles Manson was directly responsible for ANYTHING that happened regarding the Family, BUT could it NOT also be reasonable to consider that the President of the United States was "directly responsible" for ANYTHING U.S. soldiers did in Vietnam ? HE sure would have claimed credit, IF America had WON the Vietnam WAR.
Of course, WE are all seeing a replay of this very ISSUE today.
flip said ..."It is a very, very big leap, IMO, to suppose that Tex, Linda, Susan, and Patricia ventured out to brutally murder a house full of people on their own."
Damn straight. The conman was working overtime that night (and next), employing his best Dale Carnegie learnings.
RH said: HE merely brought up a legal issue concerning "conspiracy" charges.....
Anyone who wants to ponder this, here you go.....
To prove that a defendant is guilty of conspiracy to commit murder Bugliosi needed to prove:
1. The defendant (it could be Manson, Van Houten, Atkins, Krenwinkel or Wtason-let’s use Manson)…… Manson intended to agree and did agree with one or more of the other defendants to commit murder. It doesn't have to be all of them.
2. At the time of the agreement, Manson and one or more of the other alleged members of the conspiracy intended that one or more of them would commit murder.
3. One of the defendants (any one, two, three, four, five of them or all of them- it need not be Manson) committed at least one overt act to accomplish the murder and…
4. At least one overt act was committed in California.
Bugliosi had to prove that the members of the alleged conspiracy had an agreement but didn’t have to prove that anyone actually met or came up with a detailed plan or formal agreement to commit murder.
The ‘agreement’ can be inferred from their conduct if the members of the alleged conspiracy act with a common purpose to commit the crime.
The overt act is something that is done to help accomplish the murder. Remember, once there is an agreement any one of them can accomplish the overt act.
The overt act must happen after Manson has agreed to commit the crime.
The overt act must be more than the act of agreeing or planning to commit the crime, but it does not have to be a criminal act itself and Manson need not carry out the act. It simply has to be an act that furthers the crime. Kasabian driving the car to get there would suffice.
If you limit the conspiracy to the Tate murders it is more difficult to get there given no one testified regarding whatever conversation Manson may have had with Watson before Tate. His statement: “Go with Tex and do what he says” actually sounds to me like he is consciously trying to avoid creating the conspiracy. It also sounds to me like he gave more instructions to Watson and thus did conspire with Watson.
But two conspiracies (1.) Tate and (2.) LaBianca is not how Bugliosi approached the trial. He made the conspiracy broader then ‘each night’. He made it a common scheme to accomplish a common goal and pulled into it nights one and two. Throughout the trial Bugliosi uses in his questions words like 'the next night' and 'the second night'. He is framing the conspiracy for the jury.
Put another way, Helter Skelter is the conspiracy- per Bugliosi.
DREATH: I think you got it. Bugliosi, to some extent, NEEDED the "other" murders, where MANSON was actually was present, in order to get HIM for "conspiracy" in connection with the TATE house.
Seems to ME if the "establishment" really wanted to "rehabilitate" prisoners, it would make "learning the law" mandatory in PRISON.
AND if a prisoner, in the process, learns how to commit a LEGAL "badie" society can easily make a new and improved law to also cover (IE: email transgressions.) Husbands and Wives could even take LEGAL courses 'together' in PRISON. It could actually be like a Family affair.
Robert, I think you are absolutely correct. I don't think Bugliosi thought he could get Manson for murder and felony murder that he did ask for a jury instruction on would only be LaBianca.
I think his second night case was stronger against Manson but weaker on corroboration. Combine that with the high profile of the Tate victims (save Steven Parent- he apparently didn't care who slashed Steven) and the emotional evidence (Ireland, Kasabian's account, Graham, Howard) and he wanted Manson tied to Tate. Conspiracy lets him do it without Manson being present.
Robert Hendrickson said...
TEX's mamma was a Jesus freak, meaning she was "obsessed" with HER religion and stuffed it down her young son's throat
Obsessed.....religion.....stuffed......freak....
There's a book in there Robert !
Obsessed with her religion [> well, let's examine that. She believed in Christ as her Lord and saviour. Plenty all over the world do. Perhaps she had direct, real, spiritual experiences with God or maybe it was just an unthought out, sheep like cultural following as many have done over the centuries with no reality behind it. Either way, as a parent, she believed that it was best for her children to know about it and be brought up with that in mind rather than not. Better to treat people the way they wished to be treated. Better to not go seeking revenge if someone does you wrong, rather, forgive and leave the ultimate analysis and action to God who takes into account what we simply can't if we're hurt or angry. Better to value other human beings as important enough to die for, in God's opinion. Better to love your enemies and appeal on their behalf to God when they treat you like toilet paper.
It's kind of ironic that Tex did the opposite, didn't value others as important enough for Christ to die for, actually ending the lives of at least 8 people {and I'm not even thinking of Shorty}, didn't look for less murderous countercultural lines to pursue, didn't appeal to God for those in the establishment he believed were wrong, effectively shitting on God's love, spitting in God's face and sticking 2 fingers up by those actions.......but you seem to be sticking it to his Mum for Tex not doing the things his Mum's "religion" demands as standard and normal.
At the TATE house massacre, TEX (in charge) announced to HIS victims: I'm here to do the DEVIL's work
I don't want to sound insensitive, but what Tex said to Wogiciech Frykowski was a tremendously pithy, poetic piece of theatre. Few could have scripted it better. It's almost his inverted "by any means necessary" moment.
But if one takes into account Charlie's near constant invocation of himself as both Christ and the Devil, the idea that actually, neither was all good or all bad as had been depicted for centuries, the duality of worlds travelled during acid trips and the countrcultural embracing of occult themes, especially to someone who had had a Christian upbringing, whether real, serious or nominal {as had a number of the Family}, then Tex's statement isn't anywhere near as significant as it could be made to seem.
NOW, if YOU think it was really ALL about doing Charlie Manson's business, maybe YOU are utilizing a different mathematical system than I am
Maybe.
Neither night was all about Charles Manson ~ after all, he wasn't there for all the major killing action. But one could say the same about some soldiers in war. The head of the nation may give the order to go to war but there will be some soldiers that enact their own manias in some of what they go on to do. A few ingredients went into the eventual meal Charles Denton Watson served up during not only the summer of '69 but his entire period in Califiornia. Indeed, a lot came tumbling out in a number of people in the Family in that period. It's how so many elements came together at that time and in the combination that they did that helps these discussions find new and different angles so often. That and a healthy dose of hindsight.
Robert Hendrickson said...
Blaming MOTHER for ANTHING negative is NOT popular within ANY culture, cause that means ANYONE can be Fucked for life - from the very beginning to the END. IN short, YOU can be DOOMED forever, PERIOD
Since "Psycho" I'm not so sure of that.
Seriously though, I find that many of the cultures I know through people I know within them tend to be relatively split down the middle on that ~ for an interesting broad scope of reasons. In my own household, my Dad, even when I was 38 in one of our last discussions before he died, he still spoke of my Mum as being the one to blame for me running away from home ~ even though it had nothing to do with her and she'd been the main one pushing for me to be living in Nigeria in the first place. I've lost count of the number of people, who, when commenting on the lawlessness of certain children, will invoke the Mum as being the one to blame. In the UK it happens so much that we virtually don't even notice it any more. There used to be a time when homosexuality was blamed on domineering Mums. Some almost look for wayward kids where single Mums are involved.
That all said, having spent most of my adult life working with kids, I've observed that there are many Mums whose roles in their children's lives went a long way towards causing those kids to be hamstrung in life {not for life}. Charles Manson's certainly did.
But it's neither inevitable nor infinite and I have found myself in arguments or conversations where I cannot accept that people as teens, young, older, middle aged or old people are incapable of throwing off some of what they have been handed or are not able to disagree with parts of their upbringing and go in a different direction. So the notion that a Mum can screw someone up for life isn't hard and fast in my book. At what point do we conclude that a person is screwed for life ?
Robert Hendrickson said...
Quintin Tarentino brought up the issue: What was Charles Manson's actual involvement at the TATE house massacre?
As trite as this may sound, it really depends on how one sees the word 'involvement.'
To me "go up to the house Terry used to live and kill everybody there as gruesome as you can" is involvement. "Go with Tex and do whatever Tex tells you" is involvement. Stating as Charlie did {twice to George}, that he told Tex to plant some glasses at Cielo as a false clue is involvement. Telling Dianne Sawyer {as Charlie did in '94} that he told the women to write "something witchy" at the scene of their crime is involvement. In his book, George says that those that went along to Cielo and were "told" by Charlie to "do something" for Bobby; well, if you buy the copycat, that signifies involvement.
When this question is continually brought up, I wonder what the purpose of the question actually is. Is it because the asker actually wants an answer, is trying to get a discussion going or is questioning the actual premise of involment ?
Because the word "Pig" was written in blood on the front door, Charlie Manson ordered the massacre ?
Charlie never told Susan Atkins what to write. It may or may not be significant that just as the killers were leaving he called them back and reminded them that they must leave a written sign and that the women knew what to write. What's really funky is that what came out on the door at Cielo was a word that held meaning for much of the counterculture, revolutionaries and significant swathes of Black people and Black movements. I have long felt that had matters stopped at Cielo, Charles Manson may never have been charged even if he did give those instructions to Tex. It's what was written the next night at Waverley that acts as the Family calling card and ties Charlie to Tate in terms of the written signs. And when it later came out from Watkins and Poston that as early as Feb '69 they'd been told that during HS there'd be things like 'pigs' written on the walls in blood and the day before Cielo, Charlie had told Stephanie Schram's sister about HS and it's nearness and people lying dead on their lawns, then you can see why Bugliosi licked his lips and later wrote that these were potent pieces of evidence and why he sought to link each of the words left behind to Manson.
As an aside, PIG being written on the door and Folger & Frykowski lying dead on lawns were two weird pieces of morphic resonance that weren't directly on the nights of instruction Charlie's, but which went a long way towards sinking him.
Because, Terry Melcher once lived there, the "house" represented rejection to Manson.
Because the "house" represented the RICH establishment to MANSON, it had to be the FIRST target for Helter Skelter?
Harold True once said that Charlie earmarked the two houses that he knew well in LA. It may be as simple as that.
Tonight I was watching a documentary on Oppenheimer, the atom bomb guy, and when the US govt brought in detractors to sully and smear his name, they brought in one guy that once worked for him or with him {I think his name was Teller} and one of the commentators remarked that this guy was motivated by jealousy. He seemed almost apologetic that it could be something so simple. But not everything that people do has to come about because of something fantastically complex. In "The garbage people" John Gilmour was of the opinion that Charlie's exploits were nothing more simple than deciding it was payback time. Loads of people think that the invasion of Iraq was simply a case of George W finishing off what his Dad couldn't. These may seem trite and ridiculous but we are a strange bunch, we humans........
Grim said: "then Tex's statement [I'm the Devil and I'm here to do the Devils work.") isn't anywhere near as significant as it could be made to seem."
Oh, I think it is. Consider how Manson described himself as both Jesus and the Devil. Why was Tex there? I think the statement rather unintentionally implicates Manson in the crime.
Grim said: "That all said, having spent most of my adult life working with kids, I've observed that there are many Mums whose roles in their children's lives went a long way towards causing those kids to be hamstrung in life {not for life}. Charles Manson's certainly did."
But where are the dads? Where was Manson's dad? To blame a single mom for the outcome is somewhat like blaming the gun for a murder by firearm. Yes, that is a part of it.
Grim said: "As trite as this may sound, it really depends on how one sees the word 'involvement.'"
A criminal conspiracy has little to do to do with 'involvement' it has to do with 'agreement'. That is the whole point of Helter Skelter- to Bugliosi. Since he did not have seven people sitting down and agreeing to assassinate the Archduke of Austria-Hungary he needed something from which agreement could be 'inferred'. Of course I hope we can all agree Van Houtem' was 'all in'.
Grim said: "Iraq was simply a case of George W finishing off what his Dad couldn't."
Oh no! Have we revised history already! George Orwell would he proud.
George W. (whom I did vote for) stopped because he realized overthrowing Saddam would destabilize the region. He was CIA. He did understand.
George 'Sonny Boy' (who I did not vote for) destabilized the region by starting the overthrow of secular dictators. This policy led all of us in the world to where we are today.
And all this happened because that administration learned a 'truth' from Hermann Goring that is encouraging hatred in this country today:
"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, It is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
--Goering at the Nuremberg Trials
I pray we all remember these words as a lot of innocent people have died because we forgot them.
Here's HOW it works:
Mamma pumps her young'un full of "The Passion Play" and THEN sometime thereafter a guy named Charlie taps into TEX's brain, wherein there THEN lies the dormant makings of a "Priest" OR
"Prisoner."
When in 1965 I was drafted into the military and we flew across country from Los Angeles to Fort Polk, within hours the pay telephone booths had long lines. I could NOT even guess WHY this was so. So I asked, and BINGO they were calling mamma. AND on Mother's Day through out the entire US military, ALL phone lines were overloaded and jammed.
IF any enemy KNEW that to most ALL American soldiers, it was ALL about mamma and on Mother's Day it was THEN the BEST time for an attack, Watch-OUT !
OH, and you might want to listen AGAIN to the last ten minutes of "MANSON."
To the Family, Charlie was the STAR of the new and improved "Passion Play."
grimtraveller said...
"As trite as this may sound, it really depends on how one sees the word 'involvement.'
To me "go up to the house Terry used to live and kill everybody there as gruesome as you can" is involvement. "Go with Tex and do whatever Tex tells you" is involvement. Stating as Charlie did {twice to George}, that he told Tex to plant some glasses at Cielo as a false clue is involvement. Telling Dianne Sawyer {as Charlie did in '94} that he told the women to write "something witchy" at the scene of their crime is involvement. In his book, George says that those that went along to Cielo and were "told" by Charlie to "do something" for Bobby; well, if you buy the copycat, that signifies involvement."
Touché!!
Totally agree with you Grim.
Dreath said...
Oh, I think it is. Consider how Manson described himself as both Jesus and the Devil. Why was Tex there? I think the statement rather unintentionally implicates Manson in the crime
I meant in relation to Tex.
I think it does show that Tex was under Manson's influence to some extent and is similar to his exploits of screwing Linda and getting her to nick Charles Melton's $5000. Charlie rubbed off on him big time.
It does not lessen his responsibility however.
But where are the dads? Where was Manson's dad? To blame a single mom for the outcome is somewhat like blaming the gun for a murder by firearm. Yes, that is a part of it
I was addressing Robert's point that Mums could screw up their kids for life. I don't think it is as easy as that. I wasn't blaming the Mums and certainly not giving the Dads a free ride. I have very strong feelings and thoughts about this. In England, way too many Dads {and dare I say it, too many Black Dads} are utterly negligent in their children's lives. I'm not saying this as a reader of the right wing press that simply assumes that what they read is true, I say this from 35 years actual experience with thousands of children. So the first level, of too many Dads being absent, already risks getting things off to a poor start. But then, what goes on to happen in a lot of those households {by no means all or even most of them} makes for awkward questions in many cases regarding some Mums. And in Charles Manson's case, both his Mum and his Dad bear a measure of responsibility for where he ended up. In saying that, most realistic parents know that there are no guarantees because in the end, one's children will think for themselves. Charlie is ultimately responsible for his outcome but his Mum when she was alive couldn't play Ms Innocent.
A criminal conspiracy has little to do to do with 'involvement' it has to do with 'agreement'
But if you're part of an agreement, you are involved. Robert brought up Quintin Tarantino's question which was "What was Charles Manson's actual involvement at the TATE house massacre?" His question touches on both conspiracy and involvement. While I do catch the distinction that you make, legally, I don't take Tarantino's question as being a legal one as such. So to me, it's much of a muchness. The aspects of Manson's involvement that I touched on are part of the conspiracy. To me they're pretty much one and the same.
Dreath said...
Grim said: "Iraq was simply a case of George W finishing off what his Dad couldn't."
I didn't actually say that. I prefaced that quote with "loads of people think that the invasion of....." because over the last 13 years, I've heard so many people say it.
I'm not sure exactly how the various sides in America feel about the 2003 Iraq business but even now, in 2016 over here, vehement argument {you can never call it debate !} still rolls on about it. For an estimated 1,000,000+ to come out on the streets and protest about the UK getting involved in a war is still almost unheard of. You want to get a good fight raging through the night at a party ? Mention 'Iraq.' Muslims, politicos, people with family in the army, old war veterans, right wingers, uni students, druggies roaming the cosmos, you name it, it'll go on till the cops come knocking.
Oh no! Have we revised history already!
It's not so much history being revised, more a case of people looking at leaders nowadays and not holding them always in the way that Goering speaks of. Seeing that actually, leaders aren't necessarily always blessed with some special divine wisdom and that some of their decisions are made with the same hastiness or bias that teenagers "in lurve" demonstrate. I guess it's humanizing humans and recognizing that for all the status people may hold, they're still people. As the saying goes, "ain't no one can say their shit don't stink !"
George W. (whom I did vote for) stopped because he realized overthrowing Saddam would destabilize the region. He was CIA. He did understand.
George 'Sonny Boy' (who I did not vote for) destabilized the region by starting the overthrow of secular dictators. This policy led all of us in the world to where we are today
You've confused me here. To me, George W and "sonny boy" are the same person. In the press over here, they used to refer to George W as 'Dubya.'
Robert Hendrickson said...
Here's HOW it works: Mamma pumps her young'un full of "The Passion Play" and THEN sometime thereafter a guy named Charlie taps into TEX's brain, wherein there THEN lies the dormant makings of a "Priest" OR "Prisoner"
Sorry mate, but you can't blame Mama for that. There have actually been loads of folk over the centuries that had the makings of priest {as you put it}, yet who had no religious upbringing at all, similarly those that went on to commit murder having had "religious instruction." Deciding to reject Christ or Christ's teaching or the opportunity to check out what the fuss is all about lies squarely in the heart of the rejector.
Post a Comment