Thanks to Manson Mythos, who comments here, for putting this up on YouTube!
Thursday, May 26, 2016
Raw Footage of Geraldo Supposedly at Spahn and with Bill Nelson at LaBianca's
The beginning of this footage has Geraldo riding horses and speaking with a woman named Kim Buchele. It's presented as if they are at Spahn Ranch but Buchele lived at 23000 Santa Susana Pass Road and she never owned any of Spahn Ranch.
Thanks to Manson Mythos, who comments here, for putting this up on YouTube!
Thanks to Manson Mythos, who comments here, for putting this up on YouTube!
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142 comments:
Geraldo began to lose my admiration when Al Capone's vault came up empty. He's not the best dancer, either.
Pink shirt and super-high pant waist is always such a great look. Throw in a mustache and some horse-riding and I'm in heaven. I find it hard to understand why CM even consented to sit in the same room as this douche.
"Did they use a paintbrush?"
Seriously? A frickin paintbrush? No, Geraldo, they used the LaBianca's dog.
G. Rivera - now there is man I should dislike, BUT he PAID his attorneys a lot of money to teach ME how to practice LAW. AND paid me a bonus to learn my lessons well.
So how come the "government" ONLY lends YOU the money to learn your lessons. Seems like Rivera had a much better "education" plan in practice that really worked.
"Geraldo for President" or at least let HIM be Hillary's running mate. He could also keep an eye on Wild Bill.
Blogger MHN said...
Pink shirt and super-high pant waist is always such a great look.
That really made me laugh, Michael because high-wasted men are completely revolting to Mrs. Matt. So much so that even I notice those guys now so I can warn her not to look.
orwhut said: Geraldo began to lose my admiration when Al Capone's vault came up empty.
Yeah, I saw that too ... what a let-down. Geraldo (formerly Jerry) tried real hard to reach the journalistic top but when he saw it wasn't gonna happen, seemed to voluntarily go kitschy (and spiral down). His brother was more successful.
Then Nelson saying CM may have been a hired hit man on Leno ....
Matt said...
That really made me laugh, Michael because high-wasted men are completely revolting to Mrs. Matt. So much so that even I notice those guys now so I can warn her not to look.
If Mrs. Matt was named Ethel, you could pretend you're Ray Stevens.
M@tt - that lady is a keeper.
Yes she is! Xoxo
Matt's right. I can't even watch this video without wanting to hurl.
I read a book about horses in the 60's and I'm guessing those are Arabians. Does anyone know for sure?
Mrs Matt, I absolutely love that amidst all the descriptions of savage stabbings and murders in this video you find the sight of those high-waisted pants too much to cope with. Love it. Lucky Mr Matt.
#standards
@MHN: Videos/movies with blood and gore and guts don't bother me (Natural Born Killers is one of my all-time favorites, even before I knew The Col), but show me high-waisted pants or a hairy back, and I'm outta there. LOL.
UMM who the fuck labeled this? That is Nellie at the TATE house, probably after his molesting ass was given access by Alisa. (not that she knew that then)
Okay it does segue to the LB house but that is the Tate house first. My God does anyone notice how much Nellie/Molesto fucking looks like Dennis Hastert? Do child molesters have a style or something?
Still almost 20 years later one of the GREATEST things ever in TLB research was when George Stimson and Sandra Good uncovered Nellies nolo contendre molesting a minor charge. Total game changer- his holier than thou bullshit exposed for all to see. Typical.
To this date, anyone who worked with him (Fuck you Babs, put down the chops) deserves to be disrespected and mocked.
@Mrs Matt, I have some seventies porn you most definitely need to avoid. Imagine, the caretaker arrives in his tight high-waist pants to fix the young lady's blocked sink, and before you know it the clothes are off and it's like a hardcore version of the Patterson-Gimlin bigfoot footage, sweaty thick fur everywhere, and that's just his backside. It's a nightmare I can never unsee.
Sorry, you've led me seriously off-topic :)
***
I'm not entirely sure that's Spahn. I bet Stoner could tell us within seconds.
It's Spahn. It's all overgrown with brush now, but that's it.
Just watched it all again, and his interview with CM too. Jesus. Geraldo probably knows less about the murders than I do, which is really saying something. Twitching little prick, rolling up his sleeves and thinking he'll get some dramatic career-defining Frost-Nixon confession from CM by calling him evil, shouting at him, staring him out, etc etc. What a fucking wasted opportunity. Conceited narcissistic asshole.
Folks, (no offence George, but I mean those of us who'll never get the chance for real) if you had ten minutes with CM what 3 questions would you ask?
Thanks Matt, I've just never seen it so neat and tidy, confused me.
Why (Hinman) why (Tate) and why (LaBianca).
Patty- Hinman- $$$$
Tate- "You mean Frykowski?"
LaBianca- to throw off the other two
Love eternally, Charlie
Col -would you like to expand on your 'Tate- "You mean Frykowski?" ' comment?
Not sure I've seen you promoting this line before?
Patty, of course those are the questions we want answered.
But my guess is if we were asking Charlie and we had only three questions we would have to calibrate those questions carefully. By which I mean, calculate the probability of getting a straightforward non-evasive answer...
My own three would not include:
How did you get so evil?
So, you liked The Beatles?
Can you teach me how to brainwash young acolytes?
Proteus, didn't you have terminal cancer with six months to live? Like say five years ago?
I seem to remember that too, Suze!
And weren't you the nice person who wished me soon dead? I'm in remission, not that I expect you to care. And not that it has anything to do with this post, either.
Your behavior at the time warranted my feelings.
Glad you are feeling better, that's if it wasn't just bullshit.
I wasn't upset then and I'm not upset now. But I am interested in why the Col thinks the El Cielo killings were all about Frykowski.
Well they weren't about Tate now were they?
One presumes not, Col, and thanks for responding, but is there something (other than a drug connection) that connects Frykowski?
Proteus, not El Cielo, just Cielo.
This blog has a couple of pictures of the 5 to 2 Cafe from NBK in 2015.
It's about 2/3rd's of the way down the page - the building that says "Red Sands". You can see that the "Pies" sign above the door is still there.
The guy doesn't know the significance of the place, nor do any of the people commenting.
I went looking for this place when I was passing through Winslow, AZ, back in the late 90's and it was a bitch to find. More or less in the middle of nowhere, north of Winslow. The front of the building still had the same exterior as it did in NBK back then. You can see that it's been stripped since. All that's left is the "Pies" sign.
Kind thanks to the illeistic Patty for pointing out my error.
The guy who says @7:40 "my brother owns the property" - Is that Prells brother or Altobelli's?
@MHN - Assuming I'd get honest answers :
1) When did you find out that Lotsapoppa was still alive? (The answer might surprise people)
2) What is the real reason why you wanted to get to Death Valley so badly?
3) What is the real reason why you chose the LaBianca house?
If you were reading George's site at turn of century, then you know he had Nelson (aka "Rusty") identified as a threat to children years before the Bazooka event.
ziggy - there goes my weekend - I'm going to be browsing through that lovely placesthatwere website. Thank you for that.
3 good questions. Can we presume you already have an idea why Cielo? Maybe like me you think it was an organized hit by Big Coffee.
Near the end of the video the woman references Trump buying the Ambassador Hotel. This would put it around 1989.
The Ambassador WAS in a nice neighborhood, but then was in a steep decline. Like the Landmark Casino of Las Vegas, it had more reputation, then profits. Hard to believe such a pair of permanent icons have both been razed.
Those who recall the McCarthy hearings where a lawyer asked "Have you no shame?" The defendant was G. David Schine, whose family owned the Ambassador. One of Schine's lawyers was Robert Kennedy (oops). Illustrating just how small, and incestious this world is. A McCarthy defendant, represented by RFK, who is shot in a hotel, owned by a man running for president today. Isn't that ironic?
As a footnote. Schine died when his plane crashed in Burbank, adjacent to a Hampton Inn, budget motel. The humanity.
"As a footnote. Schine died when his plane crashed in Burbank, adjacent to a Hampton Inn, budget motel. The humanity."
Priceless.
wow thanks Ziggy- cool beans
@MHN - LOL. For some reason, the possibility of a big coffee hit has eluded me for all these years, until now. I guess it's back to the drawing board for me.
Cielo - I've heard him say in almost every interview variations of "Melcher didn't keep his word", "People at the ranch were mad at Melcher", "Terry Melcher sent 3 orientals with hatchets", etc. when asked about the reason why for Cielo. It makes sense to him, so....
My reasons for the other questions :
Lotsapoppa - I'm probably in the minority here, but I think that it's very possible that he and Tex both knew that Lotsapoppa had survived the shooting before the Hinman murder.
LaBianca - ?
Death Valley - Is retroactive to before Hinman, when there seemed to be a sudden urge to raise funds to flee Spahn to Barker.
How about you? What are your 3 (for serioussss)?
I think everyone should "have a go" at this, as you United Kingdomers say.
@ColScott - Cheers. I hope that you were able to get some mementos from that place. I wonder how much the "Pie" sign would go for on eBay?
My 3 questions for CM? Difficult... a provisional and non-definitive 3 -
1: Doesn't it get tiring translating the pain mommy caused you into a grand apocalyptic socio-political pick'n'mix philosophy so as not to sound banal and whiny?
2: What did the desert mean to you, and would you go back there if you were released?
3: Misery loves company. Did you know deep down that you were not freeing those children but drawing them into the prison of your own pain?
Ziggy, anyone, re the need to raise funds in order to relocate and flee Spahn, general question: how much did they need, and for what?
Stop. Who would cross the Bridge of Death must answer me these questions three, ere the other side he see.
What... is your name?
What... is your quest?
What... is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?
@MHN - I like all of those questions. Very philosophical.
re the funds - The $ figure would have grown if they had succeeded with Gary. You know, like "Well, that was easy, let's find another mark.". Think Napoleon the pig in "Animal Farm", or that post of yours about fatalism. This was all bound to happen. Someone would get their ear sliced off at some point, no matter what.
The plan was changed up after failing to get the non-existent inheritance from Gary. The vehicles are hot, so he has to get rid of them, then it's off to Esalen and back to the con game. That fails and Booby (sic) gets arrested, so the plan gets changed up again, this time to to copy-cat....but also a few other things. ;) (just hypothesizing here)
^^^^^I was drunk when I wrote that, btw.
Perhaps that's why it's the only coherent thing you've written to date? ^^^
Fiddy - African or European?
ziggy - there is scarily little difference between ziggy and drunk ziggy...
@Matt - ROFL. Sad, but true.
@MHN - drunk ziggy is more likely to get "grimmed" than sober ziggy.
A fairly recent look at the corner of Broadway and Temple (Manson family vigil spot during the trial) @5:22 of video.
LaBianca house is @7:43
My mom always noticed men wearing their pants too high as well. She'd always say their asses looked like a tooth from the back, or that they had "woman hips." Not that this has anything to do with anything.....just sayin.....
FARFLUNG: I Love YOUR back stories, but did you know Burbank Airport was cursed.
I mean it seemed like more accidents occurred there than any other airport in the world.
I worked at Lockeed in the early sixties and was even just blocks away when the Flying Tigers transport plane went down in the fog, at night. What a scene with the fires in the fog it seemed like the end of the world.
ALSO - I thought Bobby Kennedy NEVER even practiced LAW and that caused a stir when JFK made HIM attorney general. OF course, maybe the McCarthy business was considered a "witch-hunt" and NOT a trial?
We're on a blog about people who not only lived on a movie RANCH but rented out and wrangled HORSES, and not one of us seems to know for sure what breed of horse Geraldo was riding. Oh well...
Been thinking about a REAL Black Panther movie and a few minutes ago I saw a protestor with a sign that read: "America doesn't need Corruption - BERN it down" !
Awh, the good old days, when rebels were Bad-Ass mother-fuckers !
My three Questions to Manson:
1. When you said to Watson after the drug burn of Crowe "you owe me"
what was it you had in mind for him to do for you?
2. Don't you realize by admitting to your presence at the La Bianca
house you admit to being part of the murder?
3. Who said "spare the rod and spoil the child?"
Wayne Gale
MY 3 questions are:
1) What is the difference between an ordinary BLACK person and a Black Panther?
2) What is the difference between an ordinary BLACK person and a Black Muslim?
3) What is the difference between a Black Panther and a Black Muslim?
Bonus Question:
Which of the above did YOU consider to be related to the Beatle's Helter Skelter curse?
Mr. Humphrat said...
My three Questions to Manson:
1. When you said to Watson after the drug burn of Crowe "you owe me," what was it you had in mind for him to do for you?
^^^^^Thus far, the top question for me.
We spend so much time rolling and tumbling over whether Charlie instructed Tex to murder and though it must be pointed out that until his autobiog came out, the one time where Charles Watson actually did publicly state these instructions was his trial and most of his testimony can basically be filed under "lies, embarrassment and more lies...." {by his own admission}. Fortunately Charlie has stated that he told Tex he owed him {in George's book}.
Now, putting 2 & 2 together can net you 4.....or 22. Charlie, as far as I can see, shoots himself in the foot by saying that he told Tex that he owed him {not only Tex but Susan and Linda too} and that he had to square the circle by doing something to get Bobby out of jail. During his trial, Charlie made the fascinating observation to the effect that nothing was more powerful than the power of suggestion and in doing so, affords the discerning something of an insight into how one can get people to possibly do things without ever issuing a specific order or command. Parents do it all the time with their kids, musicians often do it while jamming, actors do it while improvising......so when Charlie says "do something" as I pointed out once before, those that knew him, moved with his motions, understood his impulses and were damn well impressed by him and looked up to him, they pretty much knew what he was telling them. "Go with Tex and do what he tells you" explains so potently why three women that all said right from day one {except during the debacle of the penalty phase} that they didn't know what was on the menu on Cielo night, ended up involved in murder.
People within the same group living together and moving in the same direction learn how to read each other.
I'm still fascinated why some of them didn't just go to the cops and provide a false alibi for Bobby if the plan was to get a brother out of jail. Leslie, being something of a Bobby girl, could have said that she spent 5 nights with Bobby and that they never left each others' sight. As we know from the Mike McGann interview over at CieloDrive.com, Leslie back in the day wasn't averse to twisting and turning when it came to the truth.
Robert Hendrickson said...
MY 3 questions are:
1) What is the difference between an ordinary BLACK person and a Black Panther?
2) What is the difference between an ordinary BLACK person and a Black Muslim?
3) What is the difference between a Black Panther and a Black Muslim?
Three great questions. I would add as a supplementary question "When you state that if Black people were on top, there probably wouldn't be any white people left, which of those three groups of Black people would that be true of ?"
Three of my questions would be:
1. During the trial, did you have anything to do with strategy and direction or was it all Kanarek ?
2. With Nuel Emmons' book, is it "bullshit" {your words} because what he said is actually untrue or because of the paraphrasing of the way you actually speak ?
3. Did you enjoy your raps with Vincent Bugliosi during the trial and are his accounts of those raps factual and honest ?
As a sneaky 4th, I'd throw in "What do you think of the fact that there are forums out there that discuss you and the universe in relation to you on an almost daily basis ? Are you indifferent, do you think it's weird and if you had access to a computer, would you take a sneak peak or even participate once in a while ?"
Paul Watkins said: it was specifically the "Black Muslims" who would come out on top. That's WHY I keep-pushing hard on this issue.
BUT come-on GRIM: Euel Emons who wrote "Manson in HIS own words" is an X-con and a priesto molesto wrote the TEX Watson book AND a lawyer/prosecutor wrote Helter Skelter. Personally, I would be more inclined to give MORE credibility to the DEVIL IF he could write in Aribic.
1. If you where released tomorrow, who would be the first person you contact?
2. Whats your net worth?
3.Whats your biggest regret ?
BONUS QUESTION...Do you get really dirty being so close to the ground?
My bonus question
4) Why did it stop? Why no more after the Labiancas?
PENNY - I just got a response from Charlie to YOUR 1st question:
MHN, Matt, ColScott and Hendrickson. He added that (1)HE wants to re-brainwash MHN, (2) Have Matt make HIM a really cool website, (3) get a part in ColScott's next robot movie (he'll even play a BAD robot, but NOT a PIG) and (4) make Hendrickson give ME a bigger part in HIS next MANSON movie
My top three to Chuck:
> when did you realize the whole game would ultimately have to end with you back in the slammer ?
> did you attract all those young women because you have a giant pecker ?
> if you had to do it all over again, what would you change ?
Here are mine:
Why did your gang kill the people at the Tate house?
Why did your gang kill the people at the LaBianca house?
What color was your daddy?
Charlie...
1. Helter Skelter was really Plan B after you couldn't cut with the Dodgers as a utility infielder, wasn't it?
2. Did Susan really blow Sebring or are you just funnin' us?
3. If a train leaves NYC at 9:00 a.m. traveling west at 100 mph, where is the train when you decide to break a chair over Snake's head?
Have a nice day.
My bonus question:
Wouldn't the bottomless pit just poke out through China?
Or, how many dune buggies does it take to rule the world?
Do you think Gov Brown reads the blog to help him figure out what to do about Leslie? I do.
I've always admired Gov Brown as a politician. When I was a teen a friend of mine chained himself to a tree in an undisclosed location that was to be flooded by a new federal reservoir, a desp[erate attempt to stop the drowning of a wilderness river. Believe it or not, it worked thanks to Brown's intervention with the feds by Brown and the destruction was delayed for a year.
I'm certain he will deny Leslie, but I say give her a break.
How long does the process take..when will Lulu know if shes getting out. ? Imagine if she croaks in the interim.!
Fiddy, Admire and politician thats the first time I have ever seen those two words in the same sentence...:)..
Brown's argument with the feds was that it was a matter of California's *States' Rights* to not have our wilderness destroyed by the Army Corp of Engineers.
Penny, the only politics I have ever been interested is wilderness protection. When a politician is on your side with a special interest you admire them.
MHN said...
My bonus question
4) Why did it stop? Why no more after the Labiancas?
Shorty was after the LaBiancas.
Purely speculation on my part, but it's a two part answer as to why the spate of killings stopped after the LaBiancas. Firstly, it was the heat. There was outrage and an almost salacious interest in the Cielo slayings but after the LaBiancas, even though the cops ruled out any connection, there was fear on a level that no one could have anticipated and that meant increased police vigilance. Secondly, Linda split the scene and I've never heard anything about how that played in the Family {hence the speculation} but they did not know what had happened to her or where she was. To compound matters, she'd even left her daughter behind. She'd been sent to give Bobby, Sandy and Mary messages and had not returned.......and she'd been out with the killers both nights. Then a few days later, a call from someone called Joe Sage, that no one knew or had heard of comes into Spahn asking Charlie if what Linda had told him about the Tate murders was true {Kasabian testified that she didn't even find out that the LaBiancas had died until October}. Sage himself said that he didn't believe what Linda had told him {which partly explains why he never went to the police} but Charlie didn't know this. All he knew was that Linda had obviously told somebody about the murders and he did not know who else she may have told. Even the night after Cielo, there was little risk going out and killing. But after the LaBiancas were killed, there was and also there was now a concerted effort to avoid detection which comes into sharper focus when one considers the verbal pounding Susan got for losing her knife and Leslie hiding under the covers when one of the guys she got a lift from after Waverly suddenly turned up at Spahn.
Thinking about it further, it makes sense that after the killing of Shorty his body was hidden and then later on buried. That wouldn't make the news and have the wrong types descending on Spahn looking for Shorty....
I doubt Charlie would say all that though !
that seems like a great analysis Grim. things I hadn't considered. I don't even remember anything about Sage.
RH just got a bill from the Black Muslims for copyright infringement.
Robert Hendrickson said...
BUT come-on GRIM: Nuel Emons who wrote "Manson in HIS own words" is an X-con and a priesto molesto wrote the TEX Watson book AND a lawyer/prosecutor wrote Helter Skelter
I don't know what point you're making here. Emmons' book is actually generally supportive of Charles Manson and unless I'm mistaken seems to have been the first one to actually present things from Charlie's viewpoint and flies in the face of "Helter skelter.
Was Ray Hoekstra a paedophile ? Was he ever accused or convicted of sexually abusing children ? I've not found anything in that direction yet so if there is documented stuff that speaks of this, where can I find it to read about ?
Besides which, he wasn't a priest. He was married and had offspring.
Yes, a lawyer/prosecutor {who later turned to defence and wrote more books} wrote "Helter Skelter" which presents a story from his viewpoint, some of it accurate, some not.
I'm lost.
Is this the third street on the left ?
Robert C said...
My top three to Chuck:
> when did you realize the whole game would ultimately have to end with you back in the slammer ?
There's a certain irony with this question because regardless of the murders, regardless of Charlie stating that he did not want to go back to the penitentiary, his probation officer Samuel Barrett testified that Manson's parole was about to be revoked in any event because he kept violating it's terms.
In the book "Helter skelter," Vincent T is rather scathing towards Barrett calling him "a most unimpressive witness" {because he couldn't remember when he first met Charlie ~ it had been 13 years previous !} and says that when a reporter asked him whether he thought that if Manson's parole had been revoked prior to that summer, it would have meant "Sharon & the others" would still be alive, he declined to answer because of the gag order but he said in the book it had crossed his mind and went on to enumerate why. But reading the transcript of Barrett's testimony, he comes across as clear and states why he had written to the authorities recommending the parole be rescinded {interestingly nearly 2 weeks before the Barker arrest}.
So Charlie's sands had pretty much run their course and this maybe puts the flight to the desert in a slightly different light.
Mr. Humphrat said...
that seems like a great analysis...things I hadn't considered. I don't even remember anything about Sage
During the trial, Kanarek pushed this point about why it was that if the purpose of the killings had been to initiate phase 1 of HS, why didn't the killings carry on ? I always thought it was a good question but it kind of took reading through most of Linda Kasabian's testimony {I think I got through 12 days out of 18 before Cats' site folded} before it struck me that her telling 6 other people about the murders {5 of them in August} and one of them asking Charlie about it must have had some impact. Linda says she spoke to Pat who had a go at her about opening her big mouth. I remembered that Pat was always the one that was afraid that they'd be caught for their crimes {outlining her fears to both Charlie and Claude Brown, the psychiatrist in Mobile} and that started my train of thought.
Joe Sage is presented as a bit of an altruistic hero in "Helter Skelter" but in Linda's testimony, he comes across as a guy who helped her coz he wanted her genitalia to meet with his and for her to be his doxy.
Robert Hendrickson said...
Paul Watkins said: it was specifically the "Black Muslims" who would come out on top. That's WHY I keep-pushing hard on this issue
You're going to have to explain to me what this actually changes and it's significance. Say, for the sake of argument, the Black Muslims were going to come out on top; what is the significance of this ?
Taking it further as you have done in the past, even if the Black Muslims that Manson had met in jail had planted the seeds of some of what went into HS, what is the significance ? What does this change ? Who does this absolve ? Who does it incriminate ? What is it proving or disproving ?
If curiosity killed the cat, it's a fair assumption that it died pretty frustrated.
I don't want to follow suit.
ORWHUT: That's exactly WHY there is a Manson blog, unless you want to believe Bugliosi, who by the way, NO longer has a say in the matter.
PENNY on LULU release just made ME THINK: With ALL the MAN vs WOMAN / Liberal vs Conservative BS being spewed about, would a woman Governor be MORE apt to grant HER parole? Or NOT ?
Robert .. just a fair informed person will do ... Man or woman :-)
Robert Hendrickson said...
That's exactly WHY there is a Manson blog, unless you want to believe Bugliosi
It's not really a case of wanting to believe Bugliosi or even about what one wants to believe. It's a case of checking out what everyone has said and then weighing up what one has and proceeding from there. It's as daft to take the Bugliosi line in a one sided debate as it is to reject the Bugliosi line because one doesn't like him or where he was coming from.
Nicely summing up the only Pro HS argument I ever tried to make lol
We have all read all the books and studied all the theories and heard the rumors.
Who made a more convincing argument for any other motive? I don't know if HS is BS or the real deal but I know what I have seen, heard, and read.
It might not have been the motive but nobody else has shown more proof or evidence that can hold up in court which I can walk away with to say for sure it wasn't the motive.
By the way. I have that exact pink Ralph Lauren Oxford and with khaki shorts and top siders ( sockless of course) it can look quite nice on the right person.
Love and such :)
Robert Hendrickson said...
LULU release just made ME THINK: With ALL the MAN vs WOMAN / Liberal vs Conservative BS being spewed about, would a woman Governor be MORE apt to grant HER parole? Or NOT ?
It's an interesting question.
One of the things that I've noticed on Manson blogs in general is that there are certain patterns that emerge such as Helter skelter not being the motive, Bugliosi being less than stellar, Tex coming in for a specially reserved brand of distaste and dislike......and quite often females being particularly hostile towards Leslie Van Houten in a way that the males in general don't seem to be.
So maybe a lady guv'nor wouldn't be disposed towards Leslie at all.
Fiddy 8 said...
Do you think Gov Brown reads the blog to help him figure out what to do about Leslie?
Sometimes, I do wonder if connected parties read these blogs or have done in the past or if any of them are fed an awareness of their existence and content. Steven Kay seemed to be a few years back and every so often someone, mainly on the side of LE will make a comment that indicates some knowledge of blogs and what goes into them.....so who knows ?
GRIM: are you kidding ME, "Black Muslims" alters EVERYTHING the Prosecutor tried to imply with Helter Skelter.
FIRST: When Paul Watkins specifically identifies "Black Muslims" and Bugliosi re-lables THEM as just "BLACKs," he is directly insinuating that "ALL Blacks look the same."
Do you really want ME to explain just how much of a racist Bugliosi was? OR should I say HE was ignorant of the differences in Black people.
Over on this side of the POND, Cops KILL Black folks, NOT because THEY are Muslims, Panthers or Bank Robbers, BUT because THEY are BLACK. He knew the difference between a White Democrat and a White Republican, but any LAPD cop in 1969 would have told you: After we shoot-um, what difference does it make.
Not only is Geraldo a douche, but so is Manson. Two peas in a pod. Don't even get me started on sex offender douche Nelson! Thanks for the clips!! Interesting. Those high waisted pants and pink shirt! LOL
I still haven't figured out what you are getting out, RH.
Paul Watkins said sometimes Manson would refer to the Black Muslims or Panthers. I think to most white people, they were interchangeable.
The only thing that really raised a red flag with this particular "chamber of thought", as Charlie would say is a something he said during a parole hearing:
""If a Roman Catholic comes over here and gets in your district attorneys office...Rome! Rome, mamma! That's talking all the way back to one cross and they'll do anything in the world to put one cross back in order, because if they don't put one cross back in order, they got Islam right up their ass from Chicago bouncing that god damn fucking basketball"
Just what in the hell does he mean? If you understand Manson, Bugliosi represents the Italian Roman Catholic (even though he was an agnostic), he views races as a collective, generally.
In the very least, he is saying Bugliosi was scared of blacks, or Italians in general are. If he used the term "Black Muslims" in the trial, then maybe the Nation of Islam would come a knockin' and want to know why he is implicating them in a plot to slaughter white people and Manson generally feels racists and scared whites usually project their fears onto other whites, so minorities stay off them. Like a white liberal nerd protesting with Black Lives Matter and calling Trump supporters racists. It's another way of saying, "Please, don't cave my head in. THOSE guys are the racists".
If he LOST his case and was unable to prove MANSON created Helter Skelter, then he would be made out to be falsely accusing black people of trying to star a war.
Feminists have in recent years used the Manson case as another propaganda tool. Just as everyone has. From the ectreme left (Weather Underground) to the extreme right (James Mason).
Just look at the "Life After Manson" documentary. The jist of it was "all women are good, it's only when men enter their lives do they go down the drain and even when they commit murder, it's all because of some man". It's not "Life After I stabbed two women". It's "life After Manson".
Making a feminist issue out of Leslie's parole isn't nearly as important or beneficial to the left as using it for their other cause: to prove white people can be terrorists too, specifically, "Christian Terrorists". "Domestic Terrorist" is the new slang term for them. The left love finger point analogy. To combat "Islamophobic", everyone who shots up a few people is a "Christian Terrorist". Even when they paint their face like the joker and dye their hair orange.
Black Panthers fight the Pigs - Black Muslims sell you bean pies.
Black Panthers carry guns full of ammo and wear afros - Black Muslims carry pink boxes full of bean pies and wear bow-ties.
Robert Hendrickson said...
"Paul Watkins specifically identifies "Black Muslims" and Bugliosi re-lables THEM as just "BLACKs,"
Correction : Bugliosi's preferred nomenclature was "blackie". That is very well documented.
Manson Mythos said...
"Like a white liberal nerd protesting with Black Lives Matter and calling Trump supporters racists."
These nerds are a threat to our way of life. First they're protesting with Black Lives Matter, next thing you know they're joining Lambda Lambda Lambda.
orwhut said...
"We're on a blog about people who not only lived on a movie RANCH but rented out and wrangled HORSES, and not one of us seems to know for sure what breed of horse Geraldo was riding. Oh well..."
I know a lot about horses, and in my expert opinion, that horse is either an Andalusian or a Unicorn.
You bring up a sensitive issue, Ziggy. I never considered genocide a viable option until I encountered those self-entitled, Ray-Ban wearing, BMW-driving prepizoids during college.
MANSON MYTHOS: In the sixties, because the Black people hated the word Negro, it became "BLACK" and consequently "BLACKIE" became the new disrespectful "N" word. BUT Black Panthers were as different from Black Muslims as Republicans / Democrats or Communists / Capitalists. In the sixties / seventies, The Panthers carried GUNS to protect themselves from the PIGS and Black Muslims, connected to the violent wing of the Nation of Islam, carried "KNIVES."
ALSO, in the sixties EVERYONE (even the most ignorant of cops) KNEW what a Black Panther was, but almost NObody knew what a Black Muslim was, except that some famous boxer re-named himself Mohamond ALI.
That Little Paul used "Black Muslims" in his testimony regarding the most IMPORTANT issue
(HS motive) INSTEAD of Black Panthers or "all Black people" should cause sirens to go off in the ears of ANY REAL detective. Like DAH, maybe it means it was a "drug burn"
Robert Hendrickson said...
are you kidding ME, "Black Muslims" alters EVERYTHING the Prosecutor tried to imply with Helter Skelter.
FIRST: When Paul Watkins specifically identifies "Black Muslims" and Bugliosi re-lables THEM as just "BLACKs," he is directly insinuating that "ALL Blacks look the same."
One can see that you didn't like Bugliosi !
It is however, both factually incorrect and kind of unfair to say that he re~labelled "Black Muslims" as "Blacks" because any reading of Paul Watkins sees that he constantly uses them as interchangeable terms. He does so in his testimony at the TLB and Watson trials, he does so in your book {check out pages 201, 202, 214, 219, 220 & 281} and he does so in his own book.
At the risk of riling or upsetting people here, it should be pointed out that few White people in the 60s or now would make much differentiation between Black Panthers, Black people and Black Muslims. Many Panthers and Nation of Islam people would be identifiable by their clothing but few could tell you the specific things they stood for and here's a thing; many Black people couldn't tell you either.
It's actually not particularly unusual for all the diverse groupings within a racial group to "all look the same" to a member of a different racial grouping. Unless one goes out of their way to, how many of us can really tell the difference straight off the bat between the Chinese, Japanese, Indonesians, Singaporeans, North Vietnamese, North Koreans and South Koreans ? Or the Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Malaysians, Sri Lankans and within Sri Lanka the Tamils and Sinhalese ? When Black kids in the UK with an axe to grind talk about White men, they do not think of the Welsh, the French, the Poles, the Germans etc. They think "white." They don't think in terms of the Portuguese and their role in the slave trade or the French and British and their colonial moves. They think "white man."
Do you really want ME to explain just how much of a racist Bugliosi was?
Yes.
HE was ignorant of the differences in Black people
So are many many Black people. I've had a number of debates with fellow Black people over the years about this. I'd start off by saying "there's no such thing as Black culture" and lengthy debates would ensue. Ironically, the differences between different Black peoples ripped apart my own family for a long time, the ramifications of which still are suspected to ripple to this day.
If Bugliosi was ignorant of the differences that exist between differing Black peoples, he certainly wasn't the only one.
Robert Hendrickson said...
In the sixties, because the Black people hated the word Negro, it became "BLACK"
True. However as a point of interest, Ray Charles points out in his autobiography "Brother Ray" {or maybe it was Malcolm X in his} that back in the 30s a man could get cut up if he referred to another "negro" as "black."
That Little Paul used "Black Muslims" in his testimony regarding the most IMPORTANT issue
(HS motive)
Maybe it's because I'm Black but I don't see the added significance of this. If one breaks HS down into it's constituent parts, whether Watkins had used "Black Muslims," "Black Panthers" or "all Blacks" one is still left with far more important conclusions, such as
i Black people can't do sweet FA without being shown how by "Whitey"
ii Black people would be incapable of filling the important roles that they were in like President of the US of A and chief of Police
iii They would have to hand over the reigns of organizational power to Charlie and the Family
iv They would be slaves once again, just like in the days of the good ole South.
So regardless of whether or not it was the Black Muslims that came out on top, that would only be one phase of HS. It was a necessary step on the way to the endgame which finishes with "blackie" having their fuzzy head scratched, their black arses kicked and them cast out into the fields to pick cotton and be good niggers forever more.
I find that in the zeal there has been for so long to discredit HS, many people really don't look at it. They don't look at it's constituent parts individually, from where it starts, all the way up to the endgame, then put the whole shebang together and as such, miss a whole lot. The religious/prophetic dimension doesn't faze me, the political aspect doesn't faze me, the psychedelic mores don't freak me out, the racial contribution is as real to me as any one cares to name and the revolutionary zeitgeist appears to me as rather normal.
When someone's supposed endgame is to have your race back in slavery, which particular sentence Paul Watkins used in which minute really isn't particularly relevant. It certainly doesn't alter this part of the motive as presented.
Something else occurs to me; Charlie didn't really sit down and rap with Panthers as far as has been recorded. Neither was he given to rapping with "Black people" as his buds. But we do know that he rapped with Black Muslims when he was in jail. The elements of HS seem to have been things that were in some ways personal to him, things that affected him in some way. Mix all that with some enlightening doses of Owsley's acid and what comes out is anybody's business. Remember something that you pointed out about LSD and how it was intended to be used as a tool to dredge up all kinds of stuff that lurked in the subconscious.......
@Matt - Were those the guys who'd alligator or polo shirts with the collar up? What was the point of that? "I'm wearing a golf shirt, but the upturned collar means that I'm a badass". They were always the villains in 80's movies, and for good reason. We all knew deep down that they were worse than Hitler, at least in a fashion sense.
BTW, whatever happened to Mr. Blackwell? I heard that he died of gerbil related causes.
And since the topic of this thread is fashion :
@Robert Hendrickson, you still haven't answered the question that I asked you last week : Do you you own any leisure suits? Why are you avoiding the question?
That should be : "Were those the guys who'd WEAR alligator or polo shirts"
I should proofread my posts before I post them.
Grimtraveller, I thoroughly enjoy your highly articulate and well thought out posts.
I tend to agree with all the above except to mention one minor thing. Back in the 60's we definitely knew the difference between the 'black panthers' and 'black people' in general. 'Black muslims' back then was indeed obscure. But your comment likely holds true for today.
And back then we also knew what their purpose was although people were scared things would get out of hand. This is not uncommon when any group goes militant and begins to get into a paranoid 'group think' mode.
To RH me amigo: I don't think Bugliosi was racist nor any more biased than any other individual of any ethnicity back then. In fact I always thought he was careful with his wording and intent. He came into the MF thing cold, had a lot thrown on his plate, and was under pressure to come up with a case. That was his JOB, like all the annoying doctors telling me all the time all the healthy things I should be doing. It's their JOB and I'm good with that, I can take it or leave it.
In "Venice" California, this morning residents woke up to THEIR own Vietnam WAR veterans wall, bearing the names of the STILL missing in action - desecrated with spray paint.
This actually relates to the present discussion. There is a BIG difference between the brave soldiers who died in Vietnam and the Mother Fucking politicians (JFK, LBJ & Nixon) who put THEM there. YES all were Americans, BUT just like the present situation, the politicians (Clinton, Trump & Sanders) ALL ducked out of military service to THEIR country, while THEY would have young Latino, Black and Poor White boys PROTECT "them."
SO if YOU are really STILL pissed about the Vietnam WAR, show that YOU are sincere and go PISS on the above mentioned politician's PHOTOS and POST the video on YouTube.
That way, YOU don't reveal YOUR ignorance and Donald Trump will NOT get 99% of the vote.
Robert C said...
Back in the 60's we definitely knew the difference between the 'black panthers' and 'black people' in general
Would that have applied to the whole White population though ? I know that there were those that obviously did know {hence the 'few'} but whole masses ? And it's not just a white thing. For the best part of nearly half a century I've been hearing people of all shades and hues categorizing others in ways that they wouldn't if they knew what they were actually about.
In fact I always thought he was careful with his wording and intent
So did I. What's just as interesting is that he says the same thing about Charles Manson; that while in court he was careful how he referred to Black people, in their private chats he was anything but.
GrimT -- Virtually everyone of all ethnicities that wasn't sequestered deep in the bush without a TV or radio were aware of the black panthers and their agendas back then because it was a media focus. And the black panthers often did things to deliberately call attention to themselves to keep in the public eye and sustain their cause. This ranged from simple militant drill & display to personal interviews.
Grim - I'm not sure you understand: I was interested to know what questions others would put to Charles Manson if they had the chance. Encyclopedic though your knowledge of the case may be, I just thought it might be enlightening to hear what others would ask Manson.
It's quite possible that someone may soon propose a game of "what three questions would you like to ask Grim Traveller?
Thanks for letting me know that Ronald 'Shirty' Shea was murdered after the LosBiancas. Never knew that. I've made a note of it for future reference. I remember Shirty was killed by male members of the Mansion Family: Charles 'Rex' Watson, Steve 'Clam' Gorgon and Spruce Davis? And then Gary 'Tim' Henman overheard the murder so they cut his ear off so he couldn't talk?
Let me know if I've got anything wrong there, Grim.
(PS - what does your nom-de-blog denote? Do you get car-sick? If so, my sympathies: as a child on a car journey I once turned to my best friend David, beside me on the back seat, to tell him I felt ill, but as I opened my mouth I projectiled a torrent of gut-rot-soup into his face and down his new coat. His mum was picking chunks of slimy carrot from his golden curls all evening. I felt immediately better.)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^LMFAO
Snicker..
AND a top of the morning to ya'll.
In ALL my visits to this blog there has NEVER been a more significant collection of PHOTOS than those of the Black Panthers with GUNS posted in the last Article.
Perhaps those photos even re-shaped the public's perception of ALL Black people. Now, IMAGINE authentic photos of JEWS in Germany armed with GUNS on the steps to that iconic NAZI building in 1939. YUP, you guessed it, there would NOW be a Jewish Deli on every street corner in America!
IF you never understand ANYTHING else, understand this: A liberal politician wants to ELIMINATE your GUNS, but "not" HIS.
GRIM: It's the mental journey on the path of self discovery that dwells within the
"Black Muslim" CLUE. IF "I" a white person fits that piece of the puzzle for YOU, doesn't that simply reinforce the old adage that Black people NEED White people to show THEM the way?
ZIGGY: NO I don't have a "leisure" suit, but I think I still have my authentic Levi jacket from the 70s. I'll never forget the day Merrick showed-up in HIS brand new "leisure" costume. Everyone had to bite their tongues to keep from laughing. AND the more proudly he showed off that suit, the funnier it got.
I think IF Jay and Voitck were dressed in leisure suits that fateful night, the neighbors would have HEARD so much loud laughter coming from the house at the end of the street, THEY would have called the cops.
Holy COW Batburgers: have I got a GREAT idea for making money to support the cost of "prisons."
Let the "prisons" also be TOURIST attractions. Twenty bucks a trip down the cell block corridors.
YOU get to SEE right into the cells of the wild and dangerous criminals. AND with the "E" ticket for $50 you get to say a few words to he human gorillas.
At the end of the ride YOU can even purchase an autographed photo of YOUR favorite "bad" guy.
Where's Jerry Brown's email address?
Leisure suit, the suit that killed the seventies.
MHN said...
I just thought it might be enlightening to hear what others would ask Manson
In some cases, it was.
And some of those questions trigger other side discussions, as per a public forum.
♫♪♫Don't let ♫ ♪♫♫ ♪♫it bug♪♪♪ you♫....♫today♪.
Robert Hendrickson said...
IF "I" a white person fits that piece of the puzzle for YOU, doesn't that simply reinforce the old adage that Black people NEED White people to show THEM the way?
Not at all.
Some things I can work out ~ and be forever wrong or maybe right. Some things I'll probably never understand. Some things, I need direction, not in cryptic fashion, but in plain speak. This is one of those times. You've made an assertion. I don't understand it. I'd like an explanation so I can understand it. Grimtraveller needs Robert to show him the way. ☺
"In some cases it was".
You, in microcosm. Plonkingly earnest, patronising, gratingly authoritative.
It used to be more fun here. Enjoy.
I'm just impressed Grim was able to find Paul Watkins' quotes pertinent to the discussion from Robert's book without an index!
@MHN - Judging by Grim's questions to Charlie, it sounds like he has the whole thing figured out. We should bow to him. And if I've adequately sussed out what Grim's conclusion is, Charlie's absurd rap with a racist punchline "scratch blackie's fuzzy little head and tell him to go back to picking cotton, etc.", appears to be the actual reason why all of this went down. Case closed.
BTW, Grim, why didn't you tell MHN about Cockburn? Leary mentioned it a while back too, and you never responded. Are you embarrassed about your love of Cockburn?
http://www.drugsdb.eu/images_otc/zeasorb_a6f5185c-307a-406c-86ae-d90778517036-02.jpg
ziggyosterberg said...
Are you embarrassed about your love of Cockburn?
Not in the slightest. His 11 albums from "Night Vision" to "Stealing Fire" {I don't include "Mummy Dust" as it's a compilation} contain some of the best songs in my collection. I saw him live and I've read his autobiog.
There's even a Mansonian connection how I got into his stuff in the first place. My sister had written to me and in the course of the letter had mentioned Susan Atkins' book "Child of Satan, child of God." This was in '88 and I thought it would be an interesting read because up until that point, "Helter Skelter" was the only book on the case I'd ever read {apart from this book called "Infamous murders" which, though featuring the case, does it from such a sensationalist stance. When I read HS the following year, it didn't seem like it was the same case !}. There weren't many Christian bookshops in London then so I went to the first one on my way to work that I knew, thinking I might find a copy of the Atkins book there. They didn't have it but I used to look in there from time to time for rare LPs and I happened to spot a compilation cassette called "Waiting for a miracle" by Bruce Cockburn of whom I didn't realize then, but I'd read about him a year previous. I was intrigued that his music went back to 1970 so the next week I went to Virgin and saw tons of LPs by the man and so I gambled and bought the double live "Circles in the stream" ~ where others paddle, I sometimes dive deep ! Listened to it and was knocked out by the songs. Within 4 months, I had 11 of his albums. I always was a bit extreme and ready to miss a meal when it came to buying records !
MHN said...
You, in microcosm. Plonkingly earnest, patronising, gratingly authoritative
I could choke from all this honour, I could die from all this praise.....
Chats gets today's "You cracked Matt Up" award...
Honorable mention to Ziggy.
In the words of the immortal Max Frost:
"Someone's paying attention" ;-)
ziggyosterberg said...
BTW, Grim, why didn't you tell MHN about Cockburn? Leary mentioned it a while back too, and you never responded
I remember it on another site sometime last year where Leary7 said "Bruce Cockburn one of my favorites, grim. Saw him in Portsmouth NH several years ago" but I don't recall him asking elsewhere. In that thread, I'd already said something about Bruce and "Grim Travellers" so I had nothing to add at that time.
chatsworth charlie said...
Robert's book without an index!
You should try William Zamora's "Trial by your peers" because that doesn't even have chapters ! It's one huge splurge with no kind of references at all, although I think it's a fantastic book. I've had to make my own section headings on that one. Robert's book is actually really well laid out and reader friendly.
MHN said...
Why did it stop? Why no more after the Labiancas?
Irving Kanarek made a point of asking the question at the trial why matters only stopped at the second night. Why not a third night and a fourth if the purpose was to start a race war ? It does however, seem a mighty assumption that there would have to be more than two nights of killings.
If the copycat theory is bang on the money, the same question could apply; why did it stop after two nights ? Why consecutive nights ? And the same objection would fall in:¬> why shouldn't it have ?
@grimtraveller - Thanks for that. He's a really underappreciated artist. Great guitar player as well. I think that Eddie Van Halen once said that he was the best, so he must be pretty good.
I celebrate his entire catalogue, with the exception of maybe "If a tree falls" - that song always got on my nerves. "If I had a Rocket Launcher" kind of got on my nerves too. But "Call it Democracy" is one of the greatest songs ever written. Any song containing the line - "IMF, dirty MF" - would have to be great, by default.
And it was probably Lynyrd's site where I read that "Portsmouth NH" thing from Leary. I post on there as Katie (though she'll deny it), so that's probably where I remember that from.
Remember our conversations about the band "Boston"? Good times.
Max and Charlie always bring it. That's why we pay attention. Yes sir!
Vote for Max Frost and Chatsworth Charlie
Make America Great Again? Yes they can!
Donald Trump comments on Max and Charlie
Let me make one thing perfectly clear.
Mr. Hendrickson, I PAID for Manson '73 as well as Inside The Manson Gang & Death To Pigs.
I am NOT A CROOK!
GRIM: "Zebra" by Clark Howard should provide you with a very relevant Black Muslim connection?
NOW, can you figure out WHY there is NO index in Death to Pigs?
What I say on this blog may sound "cryptic" to you, but that is because of the way you were formally educated.
I going to have a frosty chat about that with Charlie!
ziggyosterberg said...
He's a really underappreciated artist
Other than people I turned onto him, prior to the internet, I had only known 2 people that had even heard of him and one of them wouldn't listen to his music because he didn't feel it was right for a Christian to appear on an LP cover with a fag and bottle of beer {Inner City Front} !
Rolling Stone magazine once called Bruce "the last rock obscurity."
Great guitar player as well
There actually haven't been that many guitarists that really get me going in all departments; acoustic & electric guitar, lead & rhythm, soloist and accompanist and who also knock out really melodic solos {either electric or acoustic} and put together really good instrumentals that are adventurous yet easy to follow ~ Bruce is one of them.
I also have found him to be the most musically diverse artist I've come across, with the exception of that group that recorded the White album.
"If I had a Rocket Launcher" kind of got on my nerves too
Although by no means my favourite of his, I do like the song. It's musically engaging, lyrically strong and it's got one of those melodies that never really goes anywhere yet is indispensable and somehow no other would fit. When I saw him in Kentish Town all those years ago, he sang it and the whole crowd loved screaming "some son of a bitch would die !"
I was surprised how ferocious we all got.
Lynyrd's site.....I post on there as Katie (though she'll deny it)
Is that for real ? Are you pulling my Holsten ? Is it you I've been jousting with all this time ?☺
Remember our conversations about the band "Boston"? Good times
Yeah. I still love their second album.
Robert Hendrickson said...
"Zebra" by Clark Howard should provide you with a very relevant Black Muslim connection?
Possibly, but I don't really want to read it or know about the Zeb. I want you to explain to me what you mean. I don't want to wrestle alligators, outrun hyenas and dance with scorpions to discover the answer when you can just type it !
can you figure out WHY there is NO index in Death to Pigs?
The only thing that crosses my mind is that it is the transcript of what was filmed but I don't think there really needs to be one because the chapter sequence is plainly laid out at the front with all the involved parties and what they talk about named.
What I say on this blog may sound "cryptic" to you, but that is because of the way you were formally educated
That's as maybe but much of it is still cryptic. In zoology apparently, 'cryptic' is a word applied to animals in relation to the way their markings or colour camouflage them in their natural environment.
As for my education, whatever formality existed ended when I was 14. I lived for a few years in Nigeria and the three years of school I did there, I had to educate myself. The school I went to was about as useful as a hungry tiger to a person locked in a room with it. One had to go and find the teachers and if you were lucky, one might turn up if you could persuade them to come. So for 3 years I read comics, newspapers, magazines and novels {mainly by James Hadley Chase but I'd read anything that was readable} and because there were exams every term, for two weeks I'd crash course {we called it 'cramming'} what I should have learned over 3 months and just scrape thru'. For my final exams I bought a copy of the syllabus and worked out what I needed to study and when I could be bothered, had a cursory glance at a school book. I locked myself away for 3 weeks before those final exams at 17 and "revised" and in 2 sittings, got 10 'O' levels.
You know, I started school in '68 4 months after I should have, started high school 3 weeks after everyone else because no school would take me and when I went to school in Nigeria at 14, started school there 3 months after everyone else. There was little formal about my education but even if there had been, you're still often cryptic !
Does anyone know where to find the full, uncut high quality Geraldo/Manson interview on DVDR?
I bought a really rough copy, the quality looks awful.
I know someone uploaded an .avi file (torrent) years ago and the quality was really good, but unfortunately it was compressed to an .avi file, and personally I don't like compressed files.
I have the Geraldo Murder Special on DVDR but the interview is not uncut.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I should probably note, the copy selling on serialkillercalendar is the really bad quality copy.
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