- Walter Benjamin
This old article, found in the NY Times archive addresses the original Access Manson (ATWA) site published by George Stimson and Sandra Good. I first read the article in 1997, but not since then until recently. I remember the media feeding frenzy that took place, including on those trashy pre-prime TV tabloids like Inside Edition. Among other things they made it sound like Manson had his own website.
Hindsight being 20/20 and now knowing George personally I have a more objective perspective on the media and their portrayal of this issue (the original Access Manson [ATWA] site). Kay's comments in the below article were responded to on Access Manson here.
It would be interesting to hear feedback from readers after reading this article and reading the archived website's rebuttal. With the authors' permission we have hosted that previously defunct website for almost a year, for those curious to (re)visit it.
Manson Family Web Site:
History Rewritten by Losers
By REBECCA FAIRLEY RANEY
On the Internet, Charles Manson is not just an innocent man. He's four inches taller. So says Access Manson, a Web site created by followers of the man who led one of the nation's most bizarre killing sprees.
The webmaster, George Stimson, is an environmentalist and friend of the Manson Family member Sandra Good. He developed an interest in the case as a crime buff and describes his occupation as writer -- "It says I'm a writer on my 1040." He found the state's case hard to believe and visits Manson in prison regularly.
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Like most webmasters, Stimson asserts that 90 percent of the e-mail he has received is positive. But he had to disable e-mail access to the site at least once; last spring someone started bombing it at the rate of 3,000 e-mail messages per hour.
For the Manson Family, the Internet provides the first opportunity to publish their point of view, uncut and unfiltered, in a place where history is no longer written by the victors. It's fair to say the Family has been disappointed by their treatment in the press.
"Before, if you wanted to get your point of view across, you had to deal with the mainstream media," Stimson said. "They'll humor you to get you to cooperate. I thought it was pointless to deal with the mainstream media. You're just burying yourself deeper in the lies. We're not interested in having someone balance you and talk to the prosecutor."
That prosecutor, Stephen Kay, says he has been alarmed by what he sees as the rewriting of history on the Internet.
These days, he works as head deputy of the Los Angeles County District Attorney's Long Beach branch. He has an oceanfront office with a view of the Queen Mary, and the walls are hung with plaques thanking him for winning cases in some of California's most grisly murders and banners congratulating him for being named this year's Prosecutor of the Year by the Los Angeles County Bar Association. He received the accolade after successfully prosecuting the county's latest high-profile murder case, the death of a model, Linda Sobek.
Even after 25 years of endless press inquiries about the Manson case, Kay takes all the time he needs to make sure the record is straight. His patience comes from a basic philosophy: He doesn't want these people ever to get out of prison.
So he rattled off the story again, the details and events spilling out strangely, in dry lawyerly tones: the bikers, the Beach Boys, the drugs, the movie stars, the record business, the race war the Family wanted to start by framing black people for murdering white people.
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"That's absolutely untrue," Kay said, "because Sandy Good would not do anything without his approval. Just like I thought he put Lynette Fromme (another Family member, known as "Squeaky") up to trying to assassinate President Ford. These girls do not do anything unless he tells them to."
Kay took a hard line against the Web site. He disputed the notion that if Manson could have published a site in 1967, he might not have felt the need to lead followers to murder to get his point across. Quite the contrary, Kay said: If Manson had had a Web site 30 years ago, "he would have had a bigger Family."
"I think it's sad there is this Web page, because it obviously is sucking in unsuspecting young people who have no idea what a bad person Manson is," Kay said. "Manson is not a cult hero. He's a despicable excuse for a human being."
The Manson persona has attracted moderate attention on the Web from outside the Family. There's an interview with Stimson featured in Revolting, a section on Manson on White Devil Records' Web site and a fan page by a Canadian Web publisher.
It's not much, but from the prosecutor's perspective any lionizing of the man who serves as America's monster-in-a-cage is cause for concern.
Even so, Kay feels no need to counter Access Manson with a Web site of his own. He figures he's made his point.
"Hey," Kay said. "He's convicted."
57 comments:
It was such an embarrassment to be called a loser by the New York (Cyber)Times that I made sure I included a reference to this article in my book (see footnote, page 329).
There is no reason to generally address this piece here (much less to respond to Stephen Kay’s moronic and incorrect conclusions regarding Access Manson) but if any MF Blog reader has questions about the article or the AM response to it I would be happy to try to answer them.
Kay said: "because it obviously is sucking in unsuspecting young people"
Seems to me Manson blogs have now ended up sucking in very sophisticated old people.
Typically, the writer of a newspaper story does not get to choose the title of the writer's own article. A specialized editor's only job is to come up with attention grabbing story title after a brief look at the story. Seems like in this article the headline writer wanted a punch that didn't match the article's content.
I didn't really see a rebuttal in AM as much as an initial denigration/discredit of Kay followed by meandering, reactionary comments extolling the virtues of Chuck. This inability to focus tends to be a common theme with the Mansonites throughout the decades.
IF you look back a couple of POSTS "Farglung" mention the recent story of the guy who "stole" a cup of soda at McDonald's. He can't understand how anyone could be so stupid and that's UNDERSTANDABLE. (I can't understand WHY so many people lead the cops on a high speed car chase, because of a minor driving violation)
BUT what Farflung failed to mention: There were actually 3 teenagers who poured (without permission) themselves soda and ONLY one refused to pour it out at the manager's command. The other 2 did as told and THEY were NOT arrested.
THUS, here we have a case where two thirds represent good Americans and ONLY one third of Americans are stupid/bad losers. That ain't so BAD if you really think about it.
AND this relates perfectly to George Stimson. The PRESS/ Media must create "losers" in order to make its patrons FEEL good about themselves. My GOD, the entire Manson Case falls directly into this category.
IF you really want to talk "loser," in 1969 America actually had a PRESIDENT (give-up) and QUIT the BEST job in the world, BECAUSE he was actually embarrassed at being the world's GREATEST loser.
BY most definitions, a LOSER is a quitter and a WINNER is simply someone who doesn't QUIT.
Of course, that would make Charles Manson a WINNER or a QUITER, depending on which way you chose to point your dick.
Steven Kay was just Bugliosi's cuck. Debra Tate really takes the cake (no pun) with her recent comment that ATWA was a front for a race war agenda!?!?!
Patty read "MF" the dirty way at first lol. Now she's got it.
Robert,
I "think" most of the people who lead police on high speed car chases are people who know that being run trough the police computer will cost them dearly because of previous offences, outstanding warrants, etc.
The dirty MF? Mark Fuhrman?
While watching The People vs OJ I was wondering, how many people would need to be charged with conspiracy to commit murder before the team names were switched? "The DA vs The People" has a nice ring to it.
Imagine a time where the people decided en-masse that the most important thing was protecting your own. I've always suspected the one-size-fits-all law against murder might take insufficient account of the greatness of certain individuals. Maybe I'm a bit like Hillary in that I too sometimes think the rules only apply to the little people.
Bugliosi has made Manson sufficiently "great" and mythical that he does indeed seem beyond the remit or the purview of any mere court of law. Bugliosi has been Manson's St Paul. And I'm sorry Mr Stimson, but St Paul's version of Jesus will always beat the more honest and more ethical reading offered by James and the early Jerusalem followers. The myth will triumph because it is greater than we are. It is a crime to reduce Manson to a mere mortal at this stage.
I think this also relates to the MEDIA and its coverage of ATWA and George Stinson:
For quite some time now Governor John Kasich of Ohio has been getting a very nice image build from the media, especially because he is running for President AGAINST the "evil" Donald Trump.
Well, Sunday night the famous 60 minutes NEWS program ran an in depth story about the Heroin epidemic in the state of OHIO and of course we are all hearing about the mass murders at the POT grow houses in OHIO.
Seems the OD deaths in OHIO are so infecting the entire state Kasich even signed into law the legal distribution of an antidote drug in effort to try and save, at least, some of the Ohio Population.
So how come WE don't hear more about this failed "loser" who calls himself a fantastic LEADER with so many accomplishments. HE should be the next U.S. President?
AND how come nobody even questions WHY Ohio is such an easy dumping ground for such a nasty DRUG. Like is Kasich maybe getting a kick-back from the "cartel? I bet IF this clown was sporting a beard and long hair, the media would be all over HIS shady connections.
Just THINK, the media probably doesn't even KNOW what a "loser" Kasich is, cause HE talks the talk the "establishment" wants to suck on.
Mr Hendrickson, heroin is so yesterday, the media is turning its attention to W-18 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W-18).
It's about time a synthetic replacement for heroin was invented and the Afghans turned their hand to growing a different crop for the infidels.
As to Manson, probably it will be a historical point if he is rehabilitated rather than anytime soon. Hats off to Mr Stimson for beginning the process to re-address the balance in Manson's favour.
Now that the Bug has gone to the now, I would like Mr Stephen Kay to be a bit more candid about his experience of working with him, and giving evidence against him in the contempt trial that collapsed. In my opinion Bugliosi's reputation cannot be maintained in the long run.
The subject/saga does deserve to have at least one book written from the perspective of pop culture/media driven angle. Manson was never portrayed as simply an individual, right from the get-go he was presented as a super-villan.
Exactly MY point Christopher: It is the "MEDIA" that CONTROLS what the "public" THINKS.
Rebecca Fairly Raney INFORMED us what to think about ATWA and George Stimson.
BUT WHO takes the time to look-up HER story on the internet. SHE was a total LOSER until she wrote the subject Manson / ATWA website article. In a metaphysical world SHE simply sucked George's precious member to elevate herself from a street whore to a journalist.
The "media" NOW has something (W-18) scarier than yesterday's heroin, BUT HEROIN is what KILLING everyone.
In 1969, the Vietnam WAR was scary KILLING all the Black, Brown and poor White boys, BUT when the Charlie Manson GANG came along, whoopee - we got the scariest KILLING machine of all time - right here in OUR living rooms.
That's WHY I mention LBJ all the time. IF you don't get the Vietnam WAR scene, you'll NEVER understand the MANSON mystique.
AND now YOU got a bunch of yellow belly scaredee cats WHO "all" ran off to college to escape the rice paddies of Vietnam, now THINK they are just right to lead the most powerful Nation on earth.
George what do you would have happened if Manson had been allowed to be his own attorney?
Does anyone know what is going on with Cat's site?
Wow. Slowly, this blog has become an anti-Kaye, anti Bug, Pro Manson site.
Sorry, Manson was not a hero, or a good guy. I don't think I will be frequenting this blog any longer. It used to be less one sided. George, you and Blue enjoy yourselves. Bye everybody. I cannot glorify murder.
Respectfully disagree with John.
Yes, indeed.
What has happened to Cat's site?
It's an excellent source of reference material of all types re: Manson-onia.
Hope it gets back on the net.
Seger - it's actually best you hang around as this spin weaving needs some rational counter proposals to keep the whole matter in proper perspective.
beauders - if Manson was his own attorney he would have just used the platform to expound on his meandering agendas, as he actually tried to do back then, rather than address (defend) his involvement in not only murdering but butchering people alive.
Robert H. my fine feathered peer - out of the total number of males of military age in the US during the entire Nam engagement very few (I believe the figure I've seen was less than 2%) served in that theater of operation of which yet again a small percentage thereof actually saw combat. That must mean according to you that the vast majority, tens of millions, must have been running around dodging the draft like maniacs. Incidentally my Nam draft number was 263 -- something you don't forget.
Robert C, Maybe I'll stick around a bit and see where this all goes. I didn't mean to piss anybody off in my comment. I have been coming here for 6 or 7 years. The core people are awesome people. I am all for debate, and what not. But lately, since George and Blue have jumped on board, the tone has shifted positive light towards ATWA, George and Blue. The same Blue that sat across from Patti Tate, smiling, justifying Sharon's murder, on some 1990's daytime talk show. It's on youtube. Patti starts crying, and Blue says cold hearted things to her,snickering and laughing. How does one justify behaving like that? Vicious. I am probably going to get heat for posting this from Blue and George "fans."
That's kind of, um, weird.
Fans.
Robert C.
My draft lottery number was 289. I didn't forget.
It's all good, John. Since the beginning of this blog we have posted eclectically. Differing points of view is healthy. It doesn't mean we endorse or even agree.
When I first read that article many years ago it had a much different effect on my understanding than it does today. Becoming well versed in the story being the reason.
Thank you for reading for as long as you have.
John Seger, it's hard to stay away. I've tried. Your only hope is to get Matt to actually ban you. Which is tough. I've tried. (I mean I've tried to force him to ban me, not you.) My advice is to go off topic, something bleak about taxi drivers, something like that.
I shared your horror at that same clip, and said so to George on this site. Apparently it all makes sense if we read his book.
This is Mansonland. I didn't come here for sense. I came here to meet strange people and peer through a microscope at a 50 year old reflection of myself that God has asked the government to keep hidden from me.
Robert,
I will have to check to see if I can stream last Sunday night's 60 minutes. I spent the first 21 years of my life as a resident of Ohio, and for some reason, I try to stay up-to-date with the news there. Thanks for the heads up on that broadcast.
The "heroin epidemic" is not limited to Ohio. It is all over the U.S. Heroin has been around for many years, but there are some things that are different today than when I was younger. It used to be a "city" drug. Users had to travel to the inner city to find it. But now it is all over the place: small towns, rural areas, suburbs and still in the cities. The cost of "less dangerous" drugs, like pot, has skyrocketed and the serious, addictive substances, like meth and heroin, are dirt cheap. Why are people using it? Because they can find it everywhere and because they can afford it. I wonder if users understood that they support the terrorist networks every time they fix up, if that would make a difference. I doubt it.
Sandra Good never did anything like that to Patti Tate.
No, but she told her that Sharon 'wasn't supposed to be there', (in her own home minding her own business. I always kinda thought it was Tex and the girls that weren't supposed to be there, and their guns and knives too.) And she said it in that hectoring, whining, self-righteous and self-justifying screech that the whole Manson crew seem to have perfected.
Sandy Good helped to stop a paper mill who were polluting Lake Champlain. Steven Kay on the other hand cut a deal with a sexual predator who went onto victimize 10 women.
Hi Mr Hendrickson.I am from Montreal Canada there is an article on our news 27 of april 2016 they have found out who a victim that was stabbed 150 times and a possible victim of the family.She was from Montreal after all these years they have done d.n.a test and it is her.I do not know how to contact patty could you pass it on
look at ctv news montreal for that date.
John Segar.
This blog is one of the few broad churches that allows dissent and debate.
Personally I am encouraged that Mr Stimson feels comfortable with posting on here, and on more than one occasion he has clarified something for me.
If we as angry villagers chase Mr Stimson away with our pitchforks and flaming torches, well then for me we have to live within the thought-box of what a busy media hastily reporting using the same over-tired adjectives and lazy errors.
I dont always agree with Mr Stimson, but it's great to read a different opinion and have to have a think about whether or not I agree and to what degree rather than an endless chorus of cheap insults directed at convicted killers.
For all the nonsense on here, it's one of the more grown-up Manson sites and sort of reflects the complexities of a sprawling saga quite well (take a bow Matt).
So stick around, the tone will always change depending on who posts a blog, and yes I guess Mr Stimson's posts have encouraged more dissent from the party line, but I do admire the way he has been chipping away at the legend to present the man for decades now, let him have a voice.
Mythos - if you REALLY had a problem with the victimization of women then you wouldn't have any time for those who went on primetime television to defend their friends, the actual convicted murderers of an actual woman, regardless of which friggin lake they cleaned up. Or are women victims only important when 'the establishment' can be blamed for their victimization?
I hear Ted Bundy did sterling work as a rape crisis line volunteer.
I'd like to share a little story that might apply HERE:
I got out of the Army in September of 67 - spent some time in college and became really interested in filmmaking. In 1969 I met Mark Ross. We became good friends and started making a 16mm movie called "Well, here I am" about a long haired bearded guy (actor Mark) who would find himself to be the return of Jesus Christ in contemporary times.
One thing led to another and I soon found myself sitting across a table from one Charles Manson (in jail).
WE were scheduled to meet and discuss MY filming of HIS Family.
Instead HE looked into MY eyes and I into HIS. Suddenly there was nothing to discuss. He saw exactly where I was coming from and I saw exactly where HE was coming from. As well, I saw exactly where HE was going and I'm sure HE saw the same of ME.
I have often wondered what it would be like to have to speak and question Mr. Manson. What it would be like to NOT know what I knew. What it would be like to be scorned by the "establishment" for simply wanting to question Manson about anything. What it would be like to be Geraldo Rivera and HAVE to try and face Manson down so that I might appear BIGGER than I actually am.
AND if I was Sandy Good or George Stimson I would be so pissed-off that I HAD to spend so much of MY quality time trying to understand what Charlie Manson was all about - when the answers were all around ME all the time. That I would have to spend all of MY younger school years "dancing" around the TRUTH, to the sound of MS Crabtree chanting "Ashes, Ashes, all fall down" - instead of learning how to face the TRUTH head-on.
YES Marlene: THANKS BUNCH ! I knew something was up cause NEWS folks are ordering my videos.
BUT this story really hits home.
"ZERO" was killed on Nov 5, 1969
AND some years ago someone sent ME a movie script about a girl connected to the Family whos' body was found on Mullolland Drive. It was supposed to be a semi-fictional story that also involved a filmmaker (ME).
At the time, I thought the whole idea was crazy - now maybe NOT so much.
Maybe this was supposed to be another "copycat" murder to throw the cops OFF.
"Good bye Helter Skelter"
Question. Should copycat murders receive lesser punishments if the victims were leading a copycat life?
MHN, that is too funny! I wouldn't read his book, LOL. Ever. A re-run of "The Flying Nun" would be less painful. Even being forced to listen to the Osmonds on a loop would be easier. Bah ha ha
Won't read his book, why? What is George's book is closer to reality? You prefer to stay stupid and under an illusion because you're bias?
Manson Mittens, you won't address the point that both Mr Seger and I have made: Good sat face to face with a woman whose sister Good's good friends had subjected to a terrifying and tortured death, and defended their actions, justified their actions, and told her that Tate "wasn't supposed to be there". Her own home. You fail to address that, choosing instead to point out that there are some serious flaws in the justice system, and that she did some excellent lake work. With all due respect, that's evasive crap. Take a look in the mirror before having the nerve to call anyone else "stupid".
I like Mr Stimson's contributions here. He knows a lot, obviously, he's an insider, and he writes well. My chief problem with his work is that he's trying to rob the modern world of one of its great mythic figures. With your abject, embarrassing username surely you can appreciate that?
Manson Mythos, do not call me stupid. I do not need your bullying or peer pressure. I am an adult. That book is not the magical truth. I have read over 15 books on this subject, and do not put much stock into anything coming from George and Blue. Period.
Mr Hendrickson Your documentary is truly amazing.
I've learned loads from reading Stimson here. But I worry about the black hole around which all the carefully marshalled facts are spiralling. I also wonder whether Sandra G has ever watched that clip again as an older person and how she feels about what she said and how she said it.
Sandra Good gave that interview over 20 years after the murders. That's quite a long time for her to still have those types of feelings after the murders. In any interview I've seen her give, she is nasty, angry, mean, and crazy. She has an agenda, and I doubt she's ever going to change.
John, you're a perfect example of willful ignorance.
George,thank you. 💪😍
Well, George, you could try addressing the point John and I are making. Do you guys stand by what she said to the sister of a woman her friends had sliced to death? Or does it all make sense if we buy the book?
Nobody's taking back anything.
Wow.
Wow
There's an echo
Thank you for the reply Mr Stimson. Nothing more to say...
George I am really wondering what do you think would have happened if Manson was allowed to be his own attorney? I mean this with no hostility.
There will always be the Charlie believers/followers/worshippers and there will always be the ones that are the complete opposite. I have said time and time again that NOBODY KNOWS what happened inside the Family or what happened during the murders. Nobody has told the entire truth and I don't believe that we will ever know the TRUTH... believe what you want but they are all liars....
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