Here is this year's statement from Governor Brown.
Tuesday, January 26, 2016
The Governor's Statement About Bruce's Refusal
In the past Michael Beckman, Bruce Davis's attorney, has sent me the letter he gets from the Governor's office with the reasons for his refusal to allow Bruce to be paroled. This year Mr. Beckman did not receive a letter from the Governor's office until today, Tuesday January 26th. How Mr. Beckman found out that Bruce was refused was in a voice mail left for him by the Associated Press wanting a statement from him. Hummmm, the press is notified before the prisoner or his attorney!
Here is this year's statement from Governor Brown.
Here is this year's statement from Governor Brown.
So Brown is using the Helter Skelter theory as an excuse to keep Davis locked up and his downplaying of it. That's the state's statement of "facts". But only 'fact" because that is how the crimes were shaped in the court of law. They're not facts at all.
ReplyDeleteHelter Skelter wasn't the motive.
Hinman was killed over a dope deal in which two individuals cited in that document were involved and they both lied.
Hoyt was liar and probably Ruby Pearl lied too. The tales they spun were probably done only to have some sort of case. But without their testimony, there wouldn't have been much of one at all. They had a lot of hearsay and no body.
California is punishing somebody for not being truthful, when everything they have on paper is bunk and only became reality due to people breaking the law with perjury.
Yes, it does seem as if the Governor is weighing too heavily on the so called Helter Skelter motive and the word of Hoyt. You're right about the truthfulness or lack thereof, MFA.
ReplyDeleteIt's just not right that the press heard it first ipho
ReplyDeleteI guess Moonbeam doesn't read this blog.
ReplyDeleteI don't want to excuse ANYONE, but Jerry B. has been very distracted by the GAS leak in Porter Ranch, as I mentioned before. unfortunately HIS political career is likely to end like the governor's of Flint Michigan and even Hilary Clinton.
ReplyDeleteFor US, I suppose Jerry has finally established the real motive for Hinman's death.
AND now I suppose the Lotsapapa story makes sense. BLACK man shot by White ex-con racist Hippie with super EVIL tendencies.
At least my new scene with a possessed Barbara Hoyt vomiting green pea soup will fit right in after the Family has a late night snack when the 59 Ford returns from a garbage run in Hell.
I suspect that the REAL MOTIVE for the vetos by both govenors had to do with the fear letting any of the Manson killers out would hurt their chances in any future elections.
ReplyDeleteActually, Jerry Brown is doing EVERYONE (who has ever even thought about doing ANY unlawful activity) a REAL favor. The message is: THINK again and understand that the "establishment" NEEDS examples and the game of Helter Skelter is punishable by LIFE imprisonment - for REAL.
ReplyDeleteOf course, there are other subliminal messages like NEVER trust the "establishment" when it dangles a carrot in front of YOU. Play the game, but make sure YOU are the dangler. Otherwise YOU are just a rabbit.
IF you "have" to KILL someone, be a cop first and then try to ONLY target dark shin.
IF you have to do child molestations, be a priest, school teacher, little league coach, etc.
IF you have the need to facilitate the mass murder of thousands, be a politician.
IF you must provide the public with contaminated water, make sure its a minority public.
There are other dos and don'ts, but you get the point - IF you do NOT want to do a LIFE sentence.
The perpetrators of the REAL Helter Skelter; the Zebra Killings, come up for parole every so often. Amount of media attention? Zero. TV shows and documentaries on murder are on constantly. Far less sensational cases are dramatized and yet nobody ever produced a single special on those murders.
ReplyDeleteI was watching some Alex Jones videos on YouTube and noticed how often he compares young people on the far left to The Manson Family all the time, including some communist group in Texas who were indeed a disgusting bunch.
But I find it funny, that his new chum is now Louis Farrakhan, who's own cult paid the legal fees for their "brothers" behind the Zebra Killings.
I can appreciate Bruce and Bobby's predicament. If they try to distance themselves from the Family they might have a better shot at parole, yet they keep getting denied for downplaying their roles within the family. It's a catch 22. Also I agree with Brown, some crimes are just too reprehensible and no matter how much they beg they should not be let out. Bruce knows more than he will ever tell.
ReplyDeleteManson Family Archives if you want to read some mind blowing stuff read about the San Francisco Police Station bombing that happened in 1971 and killed police officer Sgt. Young. It was eventually learned in 2009 that the Black Liberation Army was responsible for Young's death but they received virtually no punishment.
ReplyDeleteStart here to get a bit of an overview with a 2009 article that is no longer available online.
http://zodiackiller.fr.yuku.com/topic/3910/Sgt-Young-Killed-1971-Ingleside-Station?page=1#.Vqkgeen2aM9
But also Google the BLA and a woman named Mary Alice Willey, a woman who was known as Modesto Jane Doe for decades until she was finally identified.
And email me for more info, if you want, so we don't get too far off topic.
Who knew that Clem was the legal genius of the family...seems simple tell them what you know and in turn your granted parole...What a concept.
ReplyDeleteFuck Bruce and his imaginary friends in the sky.
ReplyDeleteAnd the horse they rode into town on ;-)
DeleteAnd the horse they rode into town on ;-)
DeleteWho knew that Clem was the legal genius of the family...seems simple tell them what you know and in turn your granted parole...What a concept.
ReplyDeleteHow sad...i wish bruce and bobby could get released. They're old men now...for whom are they still suffering?
ReplyDeleteBruce if I recall was never sentenced to death. Therefore I would be okay with his release. I do not know if I believe the other killings he might have done were his since it was BUG that stated them and we all know BUG is bugfuck crazy. Or was.
ReplyDeleteThat said, even BUG expected everyone except Charlie to be out within 25 years. What happened?
Thanks to BUG, his perjury, his lies and his novel, the TLB killings didn't recede. They are our modern day Sweeney Todd legend. Be careful, or Charlie will hypnotize your kids and make them killers. The lies that BUG spun are the main reason they will all die in jail. That's on him too.
You are correct Col the newspaper articles of April 18, 1972 report that Bruce was given a life sentence. He was not given the death penalty.
ReplyDelete"In rare circumstances, the aggravated nature of the crime alone can provide a valid basis for denying parole..."
ReplyDeleteFair enough, but Gov. Brown highlights the Shea dismemberment myth as an argument for the aggravated nature of his crime - with no mention of the historical record having proved otherwise.
My guess would be that Gov. Brown told a staffer: "No fucking way am I going down in history for allowing the parole of a Manson Family murderer, so just come up with a better reason for me". Or something like that.
ReplyDeleteI'm not even convinced the staffer ever even read Bugliosi...I bet it's all from Wikipedia.
Keep in mind a few historical items:
ReplyDeleteAfter Feb 1972 NO ONE was sentenced to death. Decapitated a dozen college girls, NO DEATH penalty for you. The level of violence had no impact. You were given an indeterminate life sentence with parole because that's all there was.
LWOP was not established until 1978. So Bruce danced between the raindrops, as he would have likely qualified under "Special Circumstances" with multiple murders, and torture.
Davis didn't avoid the DP due to his conduct. He lucked out.
I raised this issue of Clem's "parole" once before.
ReplyDeleteCan ANYONE please POST a copy of the relevant parole hearing
and the "governor's OK to release HIM, because it is MY understanding
HE was NOT "paroled."
The "info" He may have traded was likely "Top Secret" or simply NOT to
be revealed publicly.
When I first KNEW he was out, I contacted Steven Kay, and HE had NO knowledge
of Clem's release. HE did some investigating and called me back to say:
"There is NO record of Clem being released." BUT he found out that Clem
was indeed OUT.
It may have something to do with "Shorty's hand sticking out, above ground,
for years. AND where is the official forensic report declaring that Shorty
did NOT have HIS head removed.
AND as far as the ZEDRA Killings, Jamie FOX was supposed to STAR in the movie
version under Spielberg's DreamWorks. Of course, ALL the money in Hollywood
will NOT get that movie made - with it's connection HS and the Nation of Islam.
It has always been a little confusing to me...the California Supreme Court ruled the state's death penalty invalid first, but then 6 months later the United States Supreme Court ruled the same thing for the entire nation.
ReplyDeleteAll states have individual discretion in regard to establishing a death penalty. So far.
ReplyDeleteCalifornia just happened to time it right, via Rose Bird.
The Supreme Court reviewed several cases where 8th Amendment violations (cruel and unusual punishment) were suspected. Racial bias, guilt and punishment decided by the same jury, on the same day, and a few other items. They didn't find capital punishment unconstitutional, just required states to define the process more transparently.
Weird, but the law is an ass.
Two more "Gap Prisoners" include Herbert Mullin, and Edmund Kemper.
ReplyDeleteBoth have been in prison about as long as Davis.
They are senior citizens (69, 68).
Been eligible for parole hearings many times.
They are old, and no longer a threst to society. Political prisoners if you will.
Can we put aside the children murdered, headless corpse rape, home invasion homicides, oral copulation with a dismembered head, and the shooting of four teenaged campers, to allow rehabilitation?
Isn't it unfair that their parole hearings get so little press?
Aren't they different people? And any other well worn apologist's blather.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteRH, Irving Kanarek maintained That Steve Grogan was released from prison due to some kind of deal with the California State Police. Grogans' brother was in the CSP at the time of the trials. Most are aware that Grogan's revelations about the location of Jerome Shea's body was a big part of Grogan's release, but the details of his cutting loose have been very murky. He was let out of prison in the middle of the night with no notification of the media whatsoever. Steven Kay and other LA prosecutors had no clue that this was taking place. Grogan had a place to stay, new ID, a job, the whole bit. He went into his new life largely undercover.
ReplyDeletePlease post anything you find about this, it will be of interest.
I will save my long winded Gary drug burn comments for a post...
ReplyDeleteGrogan was thought of as crazy even to some of the family members they say. Crazy like a fox I say lol.... you think Bobby and Bruce think he such and idiot now??
I know a decent amount about Clem's post incarceration life. I have read a few posts about his new career, and travels- even the name he was using. Saw pics of him plying his trade with some very impressive company.
But I dont personally out people in that manner :) sorry...
I think the best, most ironic argument I have read at any of Bruce's parole hearings was the following made by Beckman. It really is to me the one argument it is hard to answer:
And the last thing I want to point out before I actually get into the basis for suitability is that Steve Grogan, the man who actually killed Shorty Shea and who was sentenced to death before it was reversed, because the death penalty was held unconstitutional in 1972 and that he was given life in prison, Steve Grogan was paroled in 1985. He's been out for 23 years and he actually killed somebody. Bruce Davis was an accessory.
and you can tack on another almost 10 years since this hearing happened...
That to me is the one argument I am shocked people dont throw in my face so much more often...
If the craziest among them was no longer a threat as a man in his middle age back then- how can these old women, or a literally dying Susan Atkins still be seriously called a threat now??
Now if I am on the side of parole for any of them- that is the thing I am screaming at the top of my lungs...
Robert Hendrickson said...
ReplyDeleteAND where is the official forensic report declaring that Shorty did NOT have HIS head removed
Here are some papers pertaining to Shorty's remains. Seems his left hand was missing and seems his skeleton was intact apart from the hand. It's a little difficult to understand exactly what is what as they use language like "the face exhibits orthognathism" and "endocranially, the three major vault sutures are closed."
Manson Family Archives said...
Hinman was killed over a dope deal
That is not what Bobby nor Charlie have said. That is not what Bobby has said in his last 4 parole hearings.
You continue to put it out that that is the reason. It is not. If Gary Hinman had refused to make good and then Charlie sliced him or Bobby knifed him, then you could claim he was killed over a dope deal. If the Satans had said "you gotta get rid of this guy" then you could claim he was killed over a dope deal. Bobby has told us why he killed Gary Hinman and it was not over a dope deal, especially when you factor in that the drug Hinman supposedly manufactured and sold to the Satans wasn't even illegal in 1969.
You stated back in December something to the effect that you'd hate to see any of the people that disagreed with you on trial for murder because we'd confess to whatever was laid before us. Well, I'd hate to be on trial for a murder I didn't commit with you on the jury because you routinely ignore what is put before you if it doesn't fit in with whatever it is you want to push.
The crushing irony here is that you've poured cold water on the words of every person that was involved in Hinman's death. I can understand you disregarding Susan Atkins, I can get behind you disregarding Mary Brunner, I can even see into why you'd maybe be sceptical regarding Bruce. But Bobby and Charlie ?
Phew ! It's Bobby's story !!
probably Ruby Pearl lied too
Should you ever write and publish a book on how to construct a conspiracy theory, I will actually buy it.
They had a lot of hearsay and no body
They did. And then they had a body and a group of people that no longer deny their involvement.
richko62 said...
Who knew that Clem was the legal genius of the family
The guv'nor has now three times in effect told the parole board "You lot may as well not exist. We pay you for the heck of it and to look like we are fair but in truth, you play no real role in the affairs of this nation."
All his objections were looked at and considered by the board that voted "bye bye Bruce." They obviously felt that all that the guv'nor said was not a legit concern any longer.
Far from being the legal genius of the Family, Clem is a constant, living demonstration that peoples' lives can be turned around from seeming hopelessness to something useful, to themselves and the wider society.
Right on Grim Trav. The drug burn was just a story Bobby used to distance himself from Helter Skelter and Manson. It didn't work. And Bruce was not just an accessory. He and others ganged up on Shorty and murdered him in cold blood. Bruce, like Leslie, tries to minimize his role instead of being a man and taking responsibility for his crimes. And I would like to add that not many of you would want Ed Gein moving into your neighborhood, he's not that old but like the Manson Familt he is bat shit crazy and too dangerous to be let back out in the world.
DeleteThere's some fact warping going on. I suspect this is the result of most not being from California, and-or being too young to recall the events.
ReplyDeleteGrogan was not part of the great commutation of '72 because his death sentence was reversed by a trial judge in Dec '71. That's right, one judge ignored a 12 person jury of his peers and changed the jury ruling. So much for outrage over following the law.
1972 was a "suspension" of capital punishment while states which used it, could show they weren't violating the 8th Amendment. If the DP was unconstitutional, there would be an amendment for its prohibition. The courts found the use in certain cases violated the constitution, and called for a system wide review, resulting in the DP being used again in 1976.
You'all realize - CLEM knows the TRUTH - YOU all want to KNOW.
ReplyDeleteFor ME the related issue is: HOW come, long-ago, young Indian children were "brainwashed" into becoming "good and decent" WHITE folks, because the very same process is still being used TODAY on young WHITE children.
AND how did Charles Manson understand that which WE are taught NOT to learn ?
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteFarflung- I am too young and also not from Cali. My quote was taken from Beckmans closing statement at a parole hearing and may or may not be legally factual..
ReplyDeleteso I concede it may not be a legit statement factual or legally
But I think it makes a great point in reality lol.
Davis cant get released for being an accessory to a murder in which the person who was actually charged with that murder was released 30 years ago.
Clem originally getting the death sentence for the crime would make it even more ridiculous, but the above concept is still pretty amazing to me either way...
Understand St C., I'm just rearranging the deck chairs on the bizzare history of this timeframe. It's so odd that one would think what I've written is pure fiction.
ReplyDeleteKeep in mind that Brunner completely escaped what most likely would have been the DP by being a state's witness, then recanting.
When Kay filed murder charges against her the judge dismissed due to Brunner's lack of sophistication, since she couldn't understand the immunity deal. He didn't put in writing that she had to testify fully and truthfully, or No Deal. She beat the charges by being a monster tard.
Or as the judge told Kay, "you traded gold for brass."
Robert Hendrickson said... You'all realize - CLEM knows the TRUTH - YOU all want to KNOW.
ReplyDeleteFor ME the related issue is: HOW come, long-ago, young Indian children were "brainwashed" into becoming "good and decent" WHITE folks, because the very same process is still being used TODAY on young WHITE children.
AND how did Charles Manson understand that which WE are taught NOT to learn ?
Robert,
I'll have to think on that some more. It may be the most enlightening statement you've ever made or, I might just need some more coffee.
Thank you GRIM for the report: It clearly says: The "skull" was lying apart from the skelton.
ReplyDeleteAND this REPORT is obviously a "quickie" observation. IT even says that IT's "Poss." Shorty Shea. AND "Homoside" - where is ANY evidence of that, other than Sgt Gleason said it's so.
The point being, the "establishment" releases a MANSON Family KILLER based upon this REPORT, "written" by a grammar school drop-out.
Come on good folks - the Prosecutor who tried Clem and Bruce is the one who actually spoke up for Clem's release. NOW, what did Clem REALLY tell the "establishment" that it dares NOT reveal to the public?
Shorty's pistols said...
ReplyDeleteIrving Kanarek maintained That Steve Grogan was released from prison due to some kind of deal with the California State Police. Grogans' brother was in the CSP at the time of the trials
I don't believe Irving there. In that same interview he came out with a whole load of stuff that was factually inaccurate as well as fanciful notions like Harold True being Linda Kasabian's drug supplier. When I heard it, I was really surprised that someone so close to the principal players in the case came out with some of the stuff he did.
In "Helter Skelter" Bugliosi & Gentry mention Clem's brother twice, both times in the hope that this California Highway Patrol cop would have some influence on Clem.
He obviously didn't !
Most are aware that Grogan's revelations about the location of Jerome Shea's body was a big part of Grogan's release
I dare say it was. For one thing, it ended the fear that California LE had hanging over their heads that Shea could one day walk into one of their offices and unleash a hornets' nest of wrongful convictions suits. But the thing is, Grogan told them about the body in 1977 but it wasn't until '85 that he was released.
the details of his cutting loose have been very murky. He was let out of prison in the middle of the night with no notification of the media whatsoever
I doubt that could happen now, with journalism sometimes having it's lines blurred between investigative and intrusive. It was probably the best thing that could have happened to him. It only takes one story in the press to help ruin someone's life for a season....or longer.
Steven Kay and other LA prosecutors had no clue that this was taking place
I still wonder how it is that prosecutors from the past can have any say in parole hearings. They prosecute {or as Charles Manson put it in reference to Kay, carry the briefcase of the prosecutor !} someone at a particular moment in time and they carry on with their lives; they don't spend their lives keeping tabs of every person they've put away. I do believe that each dept that is responsible for whatever their function is should just be trusted to get on with it. I find it interesting that Bugliosi never went to parole hearings to try and block the people he prosecuted for TLB.
Grogan had a place to stay, new ID, a job, the whole bit. He went into his new life largely undercover
Knocking around online somewhere is a transcript of a phone conversation he supposedly had. Was that ever shown to have been a fake ? If it wasn't a fake then it wasn't that undercover.
But again I'll say it, surely it was a good thing that the whole matter was hush hush. Sometimes what you don't know can't hurt you.
Robert
ReplyDeleteWhen will you start making sense. Indian Children?
Clem is still an uncharged murderer since as Charlie learned conspiracy is equal to murder and he was never prosecuted in the LB homicides that he attended (stayed outside) and knew about. When I got the threatening letter from the now Adam Gabriel's lawyer I wrote that back to her and that made them STFU fast.
Kyndra Miller
ReplyDeletelol one of my favorite posts ever - The Col used to bring it
ReplyDeleteRobert Hendrickson said...
ReplyDeleteIt clearly says: The "skull" was lying apart from the skelton
Yeah, that's on the page that has 3 in the top left. I missed that because the ink on the page is really faint in parts and where it speaks of the skull lying free, the next two words after "from" but before "skeleton{AS}" are hard to make out. What I'd imagine to be the word "rest" doesn't look like it at all. Filling in the blanks, it makes no grammatical sense.
It was interesting that they thought an animal had made off with the missing hand.
The point being, the "establishment" releases a MANSON Family KILLER based upon this REPORT
I wonder if that was the case though because Grogan wasn't released until 8 years after the report.
In Clem's 1981 parole hearing, the presiding member, a person called Robert Roos, stating the record of Clem's crime said "the prisoner, apparently motivated by the fact that people believed that he had participated in a decapitation slaying in which the victims body was mutilated, contacted authorities and supplied information which led to the recovery of the victim's body. The skeletal remains of the victim showed no evidence of decapitation or mutilation." He also went on to say "The prisoner indicated it was on crime partners Manson's orders, that he initially described the decapitation and mutilation of the body in order to create fear in other persons."
You pointed out that the report was a "quickie" observation. I think that's right. It seems on further examination the report isn't conclusive.
One other interesting thing; in Clem's 1981 parole hearing, Charles Watson is identified as a crime partner in the murder of Shorty even though he was never charged with the crime. During Tex's trial in 1971 his lawyer had been annoyed that it was reported in the papers that Paul Watkins had said Tex was part of the crime.
Shorty's pistols said...
Grogan....went into his new life largely undercover
I don't know how relevant this is but Grogan says that when he showed the authorities where Shorty was {he says he couldn't even remember at first} it was on the proviso "that he not mention my name and publicize and bring any more shame on my parents" so it was agreed that they'd say they received a tip off from an anonymous source.
http://www.rafu.com/2013/06/senior-moments-our-cruise-to-japans-inland-sea/
ReplyDeleteHe's not hiding his identity here from 2013. So what gives?
He never legally changed his name. He uses Adam Gabriel as a stage name only.
ReplyDeleteWelp, if you will forgive me, because you probably already know my opinion on these things.
ReplyDeleteThe world breaks everyone, and afterwards many are strong at the broken places.
I cannot believe, that compassionate human beings, many of which remind you at every opportunity, that they are bible believing Christians.
You have offenders in every institution in every state being locked up in a cell 23 or 24 hours with another mentally unstable inmate, where they eat,shit, piss, sleep and watch TV for some fucked up thing they did in their youth and people like me are suppose to let it go and run it's course so the state can cut taxes so rich people can buy more stuff and the really needy amongst us can go without some more.
How about this. FUCK YOU.
WOW GRIM: - I totally forgot Shorty's body was discovered in 77 and Clem was NOT released until 85. AND they say the US government is SLOW. Was that the DEAL ? YOU tell us NOW and in 8 years we will release you? OR it will take us 8 years to process and confirm it's really Shorty ?
ReplyDeleteHate to say this, but my understanding is: NO one even cared whether Shorty was discovered or NOT. NOT even his ex-wife. So the "establishment" re-dumped HIS body in "COMPTON."
NOW there is a spot for the MANSON-blog to visit on it's next tour - Shorty's grave.
"Straight out'a COMPTON"
Maybe it took 8 years for the Compton cemetary to bury Shorty - VERY busy place!
Blogger Farflung said...
ReplyDeleteTwo more "Gap Prisoners" include Herbert Mullin, and Edmund Kemper.
Both have been in prison about as long as Davis.
They are senior citizens (69, 68).
Been eligible for parole hearings many times.
They are old, and no longer a threst to society. Political prisoners if you will.
Can we put aside the children murdered, headless corpse rape, home invasion homicides, oral copulation with a dismembered head, and the shooting of four teenaged campers, to allow rehabilitation?
Isn't it unfair that their parole hearings get so little press?
Aren't they different people? And any other well worn apologist's blather.
Ed Kemper, if you didn't know this Farf, participated in a program at Vacaville Medical Facility where prisoners read books aloud for audio books. Here is a link to his catalog of audio books. There are titles of some fairly popular books that perhaps you listened to while on a long drive to grandma's house for the holidays!
http://www.volunteersofvacaville.org/catalog_search_results.php?reader_name=ed+kemper
Wow, my kid may have heard Ed Kemper's voice in Trumpet of the Swan. How fucked up is that?
ReplyDeleteLeslie van Houten and/or Krenwinkle did audio books for the blind as well.
ReplyDeleteIf there was any black-ops style goings-on regarding the release of Grogan it's about 30 years ago now. Would it be covered by Freedom of Information Act?
I was struck by Mr Hendrickson's comment about ask Grogan he knows.
ReplyDeleteCrazy in some respects that here and on other websites we go around and around and there is a guy who was in the eye of the hurricane who is reachable but now regarded as not being part of it all since his story ended in 1985 with his release.
I do wonder how Jerry Brown squares it all off in his head (and I guess Hoyt, media, etc) in that Grogan has been a citizen for 30 years and his past is his own business. But for good luck he could have been convicted for twice as much again as Davis.
Davis of course is regarded as being too bad to release, in addition the governor adds in TLB to why he must remain an inmate.
The nature of the crimes and those involved is just too much to ever be allowed to come to an end as far as punishment goes. All of this applies to Grogan but at the same time he is free of it and whatever the governor says about him as part of the family is not about him as he is a citizen and not an inmate.
Similar with Hoyt. She will turn up at the next hearing and mention that she was also nearly a victim of them, this specifically included Grogan, but he is out whereas Davis et al have gotta hear this over and over again.
Hoyt can work out Grogan's address, but is she interested in haranging him or does she consider he has paid his dues but those in prison haven't?
Atkins got a couple of death sentences for doing the same as Grogan. Additionally it's not that much a good turn in showing the authorities where Shorty was buried because am I correct in thinking the others convicted didn't bury him and so wouldn't know?
Lastly Davis gets criticised for taking years to name names, did Grogan make a full confession?
I tend to agree with Mr Hendrickson that something else was going on with his release. His gravesite relevation was made halfway into his sentence.
Kemper reads "Flowers in the Attic". A classic tale of family dysfunction with: patricide, incest, and psychosis. Umm... Did the prison screen Kemper's file before assigning that book? Hearing the sample of him reading made it ironically surreal.
ReplyDeleteHe also read "Star Wars" created by Lucas who lived less than a half mile east of my home. Continuing the one degree of separation, Kemper's first victim (Anita) lived about a half mile to the west (cue Stealer's Wheel).
Ooo-eee-ooo
I remember that one of Kempers dismembered victims legs washed up on a beach about a 1/2 mile from our school. The Santa Cruz killers were a scary bunch.
ReplyDeleteFor Bruce to actually turn HIMSELF in - when HE could have easily fled the US FOREVER, should be enough to make EVERYONE who relies on "common sense" - to THINK again.
ReplyDeleteAND for the STATE (Jerry Brown) to NOT consider that HE "turned HIMSELF in" shows just how ignorant a government employee can actually be OR the law actually gets-off on the chase.
Thank God we got criminals who know how to entertain the OTHER criminals with badges.
Blogger christopher butche said...
ReplyDeleteIf there was any black-ops style goings-on regarding the release of Grogan it's about 30 years ago now. Would it be covered by Freedom of Information Act?
-------------------------------------------------------
Christopher I sent a FOIA request to the FBI for files related to Susan Atkins and received what I thought was the oddest letter from them. They claim that any Manson Family files were destroyed back in the early 90s. I posted the letter here-
http://www.mansonblog.com/2014/05/freedom-of-information-my-ass.html
I have also requested FOIA material from the California DOJ for a few different people and have never received even a courtesy letter stating that they received my request. Not all my requests to them were Manson related.
Chris what do you have in mind when you speak of black-ops? A lot stuff related to law enforcement is not considered public record so it really depends on what kind of information you looking for.
ReplyDeleteDEB: You know I respect your research efforts GREATLY, but do YOU really THINK your "government" respects YOUR requests for information? I hope to some day REVEAL the
ReplyDeleteTRUTH - the whole truth and nothing but the TRUTH, but for now I am combing YouTube
videos for material infringing upon my films.
In doing so, I happened to find this little gem from NBC:
"I tried to stop the Vietnam War and I did It." Charles Manson
NOW, the only relevant issue is: Was Charles Manson lying when HE said that.
BUT, for me, I realize that most folks THINK that such a claim is typical CM
doing HIS cryptic message stuff. After all, How could such a BAD guy do such a
GOOD thing? BUT maybe ending the Vietnam WAR was NOT such a good thing, cause NOW
we are becoming just like those we once hated.
P.S. As far back as George Washington, the US government was trying to figure out
how to assimilate Indian children into White man's new society. AND the word
"brainwashing" was born. When the "establishment" saw how effective 'schooling'
could be, it was imposed on WHITE children also.
Then a couple hundred years of 'schooling' was disrupted by the DEVIL himself, as
HE taught HIS students that THEY had been "brainwashed."
It was NOT until a few days ago, when a YouTuber emailed me to request that I inform YouTube that I forgive HIM for posting portions of my film incorporated into HIS video.
HE did NOT want the "strike" against HIM to stick FOREVER.
It actually made me THINK - what the Fuck Chuck? One of us must be on the other side of the fence. DEB: You are simply on the OTHER side of the fence, just like CM is simply on the OTHER side of the fence, as I am on the OTHER side of the fence.
Remember what THEY say: "The grass is always GREENER on the same side of the fence - YOU went to school."
Charlie might as well claim he stopped the last hurricane.
ReplyDeleteEXACTLY Orwhut:
ReplyDeleteBUT is there ANYONE in YOUR life YOU really TRUST enough - with YOUR life / with all your money?
IF there is, YOU are NOT alone. BUT IF there isn't, YOU are.
THINK about that and then understand how attractive Charles Manson was to HIS Family.
I wonder how many people Tex would need to kill for Charley to stop global warming.
ReplyDeleteProbably about the only thing Manson put an end to was the Laurel Canyon party scene.
ReplyDeleteDeb S, thanks for the link.
Cielo Drive, I was simply musing on what Mr Hendrickson posted about how low key Grogan's parole and release was.
As I understand it Grogan was told in 1981 that his parole would happen in 1987 (or 1988?). In 1984 he was told it had been advanced to 1986.
After 1981 as far as I can find he doesnt have a hearing until 1984 and then he was released in 1986.
Is it simply a case that Grogan was treated differently because he had a different kind of sentence, ie. Not indeterminate? It's almost as though his hearings end in 1981 and by 1984 it's a formality to check in on him and advance his parole?
The consideration shown by the authorites regarding Grogan's release seem out of character on how the Manson Family were regarded. In particular as Kay made a point of turning up to all their hearings to remind them at length how heinous they all were.
However, around this time the denial rules have changed from annually to up to 3 years, Grogan, Houten, Beausoleil and Davis remained on 1; Krenwinkle, Atkins, Manson and Tex all up to 3.
So there was already a divide in authority perception between A and B teams, and Grogan was amongst the lowest conviction counts of the B team. (As an aside this distinction has in recent years, co-inciding with increased chatter across the internet, been disregarded).
...so as I am reading Fatal Justice that makes much use FOI documents not available to the original defense team, inc. Police evidence, I thought it might be applicable to this case.
PS, Cielo I contacted you a couple of years back regarding the Independence legal documents. I flunked out terribly and didnt have the nerve to answer your email asking how it was going. Please forgive my poor manners.
No worries Chris. Inyo have about 4000 pages responsive to my request. I just need to go there to get them and frankly, I haven't had the time yet.
ReplyDeleteUntil 1982, lifers had to have a parole hearing once a year. In 1982 the law changed and the board could deny parole up to three years. I'm not sure when he had hearings, but I would think he had to have one at some point in 1982.
As far as pursing those files through the records act, I think they would deny you at first. Many agencies will send you a "go away" letter citing exceptions in the law that isn't really pertinent to your request. They know they are wrong and they know they'd lose if it went to court. But even though if you prevail in court they pay your reasonable legal fees, you'll still need to front at the very least 10 or 15 grand for what could be a drawn out legal battle. So, it's a good tactic on their part. The question really becomes, how much is it really worth to you?
Cielo: Road Trip :)
ReplyDeleteCHRIS: Google map Tate's house and the LaBianca's and then SEE where the Laural Canyon Scene relates.
ReplyDeleteALSO: Jerry Brown was first the governor of California from 1975-1983 and then George Deukmejian was from 1984-1991. Almost looks like someone advised Clem to wait until Jerry is gone to get out of prison. Funny also, Jerry is the compassionate liberal - while George was the nasty conservative.
Apparently NO sense really does make CENTS.
Robert I most certainly do not think that the government respects my requests for documents. Sometimes sarcasm or irony does not come across well when it is written. What I do like though is when they send me a letter that makes little sense so that I can share it with everyone! I don't believe for a minute that all of the Manson docs have been purged from the FBI files, I just think they have something to hide.
ReplyDeleteGood idea Matt
ReplyDeleteMr Hendrickson I only realised this week that I can use my gmail account to log into google maps and save locations. So yes I am busily making sense of the locations and I did check out where Laurel Canyon was in relation to TLB.
ReplyDeleteCool moment when you see how close the markers are in Venice Beach for the Straight Satans clubhouse, Mark Ross's house and Saladin Nader's apartment.
Cielo, thanks for being gracious. It didnt take me long to realise that being located in the UK presented a major hurdle writing/phoning, I naively thought I could just email people. From what you posted it never occured to me I would physically have to pick stuff up. I appreciate your efforts and wanted to do my bit.
DEB: when I write something "sarcastic" it's NOT just in response to something a specific blogger wrote, BUT for EVERYONE who may appreciate some TRUTH.
ReplyDeleteIE: the whole "Freedom of Information Act" is like Dah, the F.B.I. is not much more than a glorified welfare org. It's the C.I.A. files YOU want. The F.B.I. only monitors folks like the Clintons hoping they can hear some phone sex for self gratification. For God's sake, the F,B.I was headed by a genuine "pervert" for decades.
It's also like - the LAPD never even heard of the Laural Canyon "scene." AND with regards to really SECRET CIA operations - there is NO paper trail. Do you think ANYONE at the C.I.A. is as stupid as Hilary? The C.I.A. keeps the most powerful nation on earth SAFE.