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Thursday, October 15, 2015
A Walk-Through of Cielo Drive
These two short videos were done during Trent Reznor's time at Cielo Drive. They are poorly filmed, almost to the point of making you carsick, but they do put a perspective on the layout of the house and property.
Thanks Chats and DebS. These may not be very clear, but they are invaluable in giving a perspective of the distance between the main house and the guest house. They are remarkably close together - I can't see how Garretson didn't hear anything. The panoramic view of Los Angeles shows a considerable covering of smog.
Reznor and the lads sure knew what they were doing when they rented the placed. It got them publicity.
Thanks Deb and Chat. I didn't realize the guest house had that view too. I was turned around picturing the guest house being up against the hill on the side where the view is. And I didn't realize the hill was so big up against the house like that. And the proximity of garage to house was closer than I thought. AND the guest house was bigger than I thought with two doors. I guess the door on the right side was the front door? Would have been the one Katie tried, if she really did try it.
"they are invaluable in giving a perspective of the distance between the main house and the guest house. They are remarkably close together - I can't see how Garretson didn't hear anything"
When you look at this ariel shot, you see how close the two buildings are. I keep thinking how small the swimming pool was ! Although Garretson has since said that he did hear things and even saw things that night, if he had been listening to music on the stereo I can see how he might not have heard anything. I can't recall where I read it but recently, I read that the stereo in the main house was playing which could possibly account for why none of the inhabitants heard the 4 gunshots initially. But sounds are funny things. I was listening to music on headphones one night and I heard this booming or banging sound. I later learned that downstairs two floors and eight houses along from ours, the police had broken down one of our neighbour's doors !
black_love_in_space said...
"Someone somewhere somehow should make Watson watch these videos and see if they jog his memory in any way"
What sort of thing do you feel should come to mind ? Having slaughtered 7 people, been caught, tried, convicted and sentenced to death, do we really want to hear anymore from him regarding Cielo ? I'm genuinely curious.
Yeah I was tanked, as per the norm. I don't even remeber posting. But I would be curious to see how that ol Tex would react to being confronted with something like this, to see if his mannerisms change or if his temperature rises.
'... I keep thinking how small the swimming pool was !"
Yes, indeed, you would be swimming many laps in that! In fact, that was what occurred to me on the last post when Dennis Wilson's property was featured. It is a truly magnificent piece of real estate, but the pool was remarkably small. Maybe there is some kind of town and country planning restriction in place - I am not acquainted with California planning law!
Grim traveller said...
"...I read that the stereo in the main house was playing which could possibly account for why none of the inhabitants heard the 4 gunshots initially."
I mentioned in the last post, that I have been working my way through 'Restless Souls' and it is mentioned that the Tates thought that Bill Garretson may have hidden in the guest house's very large walk in closet. I am sure that during one of this site's tours they visited Cielo, and there was building equipment like a concrete mixer in close proximity, but it couldn't be heard due to the canyon lifting the sound.
Equinox and Grim the pool at Dennis Wilson's is a relatively new type of pool to my knowledge designed for only one person to swim laps. Saves on water and energy.
Matt the window in the Susan Atkins's post is at least 6 panes wide without break. At :47 sec. in this video #1 it is 4 panes wide before a break. At :37 sec. it looks out over the valley. At :57 sec. you can see Linda and Abilene fully clothed.
Gtrav "What sort of thing do you feel should come to mind ? Having slaughtered 7 people, been caught, tried, convicted and sentenced to death, do we really want to hear anymore from him regarding Cielo ?"
Yes we do.
I know he has repented etc, but it would be still be good to hear a definitive, bullshit-free, un-self-conscious, parole-board-oblivious, honest recollection of the details. Those morons have never got their stories straight.
If he's capable of that at this stage, which, given the vagaries of the human memory, is highly doubtful.
The window at :37 is clearly different - however there's a window at :07 in the second video which is at least six panes wide before it hits a jamb and is the absolute match of the one in the Atkins photo.
Yes I noticed there was a window facing the front which was at least 6 frames wide, but looking at the Atkins photo at the exterior I don't think it looks remotely like the Polanski residence. Now I am curious where the hell was that? Also I can't see police cuffs on her wrist and it looks like she's wearing civilian type clothing. It's also hard to imagine she would have been holding incense during a police field trip.
There is a good clear view of Sharon standing at Cielo's windows in George Vreeland Hill's video with photos by George E Smith. The point of reference is 02:15.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d_VMleF5Jw
If you look to the right in the Susan pic Click you can see a white house (pun intended) behind the tree and one of the piers underneath the house for support. I don't think there was any structure like that on or that close to the Cielo grounds.
In the TOTLB thread on the Susan pic, it was mentioned that the photo we're discussing was also in the book "The Myth of Helter Skelter" and the photo was credited to "Rory White" a friend of Susan's. Beauders also mentioned that Susan lived with White in January of 1969 when Manson kicked her out of the Family.
Zezo's father was a man named "Bruce White" who Susan met in New Mexico while travelling with the family and he lived with them in the Topanga Canyon are for a month.
"Lorrie White" was a man that Susan was engaged to be married to Susan while she was in prison in the 70's.
I think I've read that Bruce, Lorrie, and Rory White are all the same person, but I'm not totally sure.
In other words, it's quite possible that this picture was taken in the Topanga Canyon area during a time when she lived in close proximity to a man with the last name "White".
My husband, then new boyfriend, was a neighbor of Rory White's at Buchanan's Ranch in Topanga, a collection of small cabins at the end of Montau off Grandview. Shortly after her arrest, authorities brought her there to talk to (question?) Rory. He (husband) hadn't seen her up there before that day, so she wasn't living there the previous winter. If I could see the photo of the house on piers, likely could tell if it's Rory's cabin or not.
ziggy, you are an unparalleled genius. LOL. The photo which Ann posted looks like it was taken in the same place and time as the one you have shown us. The tree branch falls in the same place. It appears that that style of window was common in the Topanga/Benedict Canyon areas.
I wonder if Bruce/Lorrie/Rory White ever made an attempt to get custody of, or access to, Zezo. I know he was adopted out and Susan said on a tv interview that she never saw him again.
“…it would still be good to hear a definitive, bullshit-free, un-self-conscious, parole-board-oblivious, honest recollection of the details…”
Unfortunately, Michael I don’t think we will ever get that from Tex or indeed any of them. Aside from the implications regarding the parole board there would possibly be other stuff to consider.
For instance, let’s say he confirmed the Straight Satans played a bigger part or maybe that Brenda was part of a group who did return to Cielo, or any number of possible scenarios which implicates people who weren’t tried the ramifications would be huge - not only from a legal perspective but possibly also from the point of view of his own personal safety.
Tex revealing any new information now, would be of no benefit to him whatsoever, aside from clearing his conscience (assuming he has one).
And as you pointed out, how reliable would his memory of events be at this stage anyway – murky at best I suspect, certainly in terms of detail.
I'm still curious as to how she knew that, nudge, nudge, wink, wink, elbow, elbow !
ziggyosterberg said...
"Rory White {Beauders also mentioned that Susan lived with White} Bruce White {Zezo's father was a man named 'Bruce White' who Susan met in New Mexico while travelling with the family and he lived with them} Lorrie White {'Lorrie White' was a man that Susan was engaged to be married to}"
It would appear that Susan was into white men......
MHN said...
"it would still be good to hear a definitive, bullshit-free, un-self-conscious, parole-board-oblivious, honest recollection of the details. Those morons have never got their stories straight"
I don't think you'll ever get that. It could be because he {they} has one eye on the parole board but in terms of the group, there's an aspect of that that simply doesn't fly for me. Take Susan Atkins. She, at least since 1977, has vehemently denied that she went to Cielo to further or initiate HS. And right from 1969 says she never killed Sharon Tate. If what the parole board says is true, that alone means she could never have got out {I know, I know, she didn't in any event !} because she did not accept as true the findings of the court. Same with Bobby. He does not accept as true, the court record. He accepts bits of it. Pat does not accept the court findings that she carved "WAR" on LLB etc....The point being, their trying to fit the parole board rules have become something of a non sequitur in my opinion. So what you have IMO with Tex is the simple reality that he can't fully remember from his own memory. He can't remember in crystal clear detail the events as they unfolded at Cielo, anymore than any of us could remember in chronological, crystal clear detail the full events surrounding the birth of any of our children or our third day at our first job or many events that have happened in our lives that mattered. We'll recall great chunks of them or maybe small chunks, but every moment & word and in chronological order ? Even people recalling happy memories rarely have total detailed recall. What people tend to give is a précis. In Tex's case even that might be further complicated by the fact that he wasn't looking to get caught so the recounting of details was done reluctantly well after the event rather than like a journalist or film maker recording on the go with the express purpose of giving clarity. Much of his recounting of events reads like other well detailed accounts. It's like he knows the shit he perpetrated because he can't deny it but he can't recall it from his actual memory so he has to rely on other accounts.
grimtraveller said... Pat does not accept the court findings that she carved "WAR" on LLB etc....
I argued this with someone in another group and I'll state it here. Every time I look at the picture of Leno with WAR on his stomach. I can't figure out how it was carved there. It looks to me like it was written on his stomach or on the photo with a Magic Marker or a Sharpie.
grim said: "It would appear that Susan was into white men......" she may have been into white men, but she settled for a Whiteman LOL Actually, doesn't Zezo look rather dark skinned in his baby pic?
To clear up any confusion on the TOTLB thread regarding a connection between Page's symbol and baby Zezo, the following link explains that Jimmy got the sigil from an ancient grimoire, a magical textbook called "Le veritable dragon rouge" and it is on page 91 of the French edition from 1521. There is a photograph of the page 91.
"confusion...regarding a connection between Page's symbol and baby Zezo"
Paul Watkins claimed that he and Charlie named Zezo: "Hey, why don't we just call him Caesar," I finally suggested halfheartedly. "Uh…uh…hey, that's good, you know…I like that…yeah, maybe just Zezo." "How about Zezos ZeZe ?" "Right on." Charlie laughed. "Yeah, Zezos ZeZe…Zadfrak. How's that, Zezos ZeZe Zadfrak." "Zezos ZeZe Zadfrak…sounds good to me." "Dig it, that way he'll always be at the end of the line…and the lines will be so long, he just won't wait in them…you know ?"
Years later, I would reflect back on the joy of that night: the unity of the Family; the birth of Sadie's child"
The Zep LP with the symbols didn't come out till the end of 1971. Although it's known as Led Zeppelin IV, it never actually had a title. I was listening to it a couple of days back. 35 years after I first got it, I never get bored of it.
orwhut said...
"Every time I look at the picture of Leno with WAR on his stomach, I can't figure out how it was carved there. It looks to me like it was written on his stomach or on the photo with a Magic Marker or a Sharpie"
I first saw that picture in the pre~internet days in a book I had called "The Garbage people." I remember at the time being horrified that those pictures could turn up in a book for all the world to see and when I finished the book, I chucked it. I recently bought it again under a different name but as I started to read it in the bath today, I fell asleep and it dropped in so I've spent the evening drying it out ! While the death shots of the victims only go to emphasize the savagery of the killers those nights, it's actually the Leno one that encapsulates it for me like no other. And it's the way WAR is carved on him. You'd expect it to be in thin writing, as in sliced by the sharp blade of a knife. But as you point out, the lettering is so thick and deep. It looks like it took actual strength and effort to carve it to get it to look like that. It doesn't strike me as an easy thing to do.
"Clutching forks and knives to eat the bacon" all the "messages" refer to Beatles tunes. The fork and knife protruding from Leno are symbols of the rich establishment. Or something. ?
grimtraveller said... And it's the way WAR is carved on him. You'd expect it to be in thin writing, as in sliced by the sharp blade of a knife. But as you point out, the lettering is so thick and deep. It looks like it took actual strength and effort to carve it to get it to look like that. It doesn't strike me as an easy thing to do.
I suppose shrinking of the skin or swelling of the body could have pulled the cuts more open and account for the width of the letters. The problem is, I can't tell that either shrinking or swelling has taken place.
"...The Zep LP with the symbols didn't come out till the end of 1971. Although it's known as Led Zeppelin IV, it never actually had a title. I was listening to it a couple of days back. 35 years after I first got it, I never get bored of it."
@grimtraveller
I do know this as I am one of the long standing, high posting members over at the LZ official site (not under the same name I have here). My purpose in posting this information was that ziggy had mentioned a TOTLB conversation where the poster seems to have confused Page's 'zozo' as being a word (a common misconception). Indeed, the only direct connection that us zepheads can make between the Family and LZ was the occasion when Squeaky turned up at Zep's Los Angeles hotel and tried to pass a message to Jimmy through SwanSong executive Danny Goldberg saying she needed to meet him urgently. DG thought she was a nutter and threw the note away. He only realised her identity when they were watching the news after the Ford assassination attempt.
Yes, I agree the fourth album is right up there as one of the best of all time - it's an embarrassment of riches.
I have a relevant QUESTION: Does ANYONE actually CARE whether Bruce gets parolled, S. Atkins goes to Hell or Heaven, TEX is now a Jesus follower, Charles Manson did or did not ORDER the TLB murders in order to ignite Helter Skelter OR even whether Bernie Sanders is a devout "Socialist" who from 1964 to 1968 was a consicentious OBJECTOR (draft dodger) deeply involved in the anti-Vietnam WAR movement ?
In short, am I the ONLY one who sees the connection between the Vietnam WAR and the Manson Family exploits ?
I'd have been surprised if you didn't. The comment wasn't aimed at you, it was more of a general thing. Sometimes all kinds of connections get made that couldn't possibly have been.
Robert Hendrickson said...
"I have a relevant QUESTION: Does ANYONE actually CARE whether Bruce gets parolled, S. Atkins goes to Hell or Heaven, TEX is now a Jesus follower, Charles Manson did or did not ORDER the TLB murders in order to ignite Helter Skelter OR even whether Bernie Sanders is a devout "Socialist" who from 1964 to 1968 was a consicentious OBJECTOR (draft dodger) deeply involved in the anti-Vietnam WAR movement ?"
I think that there are some that care about some of those things and others that don't. I've never heard of Bernie Sanders so it's hard to care unless I do some research into who he was {is} and what he stood for. Contributors to the blog obviously have an interest in the case and some of it's wider aspects and I suspect we all have our biases. Also, things that someone might bring up at any given point may be of no interest at the time but may turn out to be the start of a continued interest. For example, the point you make about Black Muslims, when I first read it, I registered it but never took it with any depth. But over the months I have done increasingly and am able to have my own opinions on their relevance to this case. Whereas your point about the murders possibly being a kind of performance art sparked me off right away.
Robert Hendrickson said... "In short, am I the ONLY one who sees the connection between the Vietnam WAR and the Manson Family exploits ?"
That's a hard question to answer because you're often really cryptic about it. You pose many questions and challenge us to think but that's not always helpful because if you have something in mind, it could be 50 years before anyone ever "gets it" without some direction. What would be helpful would be for you to say exactly what you see the connection to be. In one sense, yeah, I can see a connection. I can see that some of the guys that were in the Family were ex military and one of them had even fought in Vietnam. But those guys weren't part of the Family death squads. I can see that a number of the Family were against the Vietnam war. But so were many people and on both sides of the Atlantic. I can see that line of thinking that says that it's deemed OK for the Pres to have people he doesn't know killed but not for others who may be equally passionate in their view etc. What exactly is this connection that you see that others {myself included} obviously aren't seeing ?
I take that to mean YOU care and YOU see a connection.
And YOU, as always, articulate YOUR points with such clearity, most of the time you sound like an "alien being" from another planet.
I guess, MY point is, I must sound like an "alien" also, BUT more because I come from a warpped TIME in history where KILLING was considered a "patriotic" passion play.
NOW it's simply a "business" with a product, CEO, Board of Directors, employees and stock-holders. AND some colateral damage.
BUT because Bernie Sanders is a prominent front runner in the race for the U.S. Presidency, I see a new kind of visibility for the Vietnam WAR / Manson Family "connection."
OTHERWISE - I think this whole Manson Murder case thing is finally reaching it's peak of potential interest - as far as "TRUTHFUL" history is concerned.
Mr Hendrickson. John Kerry, your secretary of state since 2003 who fought in Vietnam and was a member of a veteran's anti war group gave the following statement to the senate in 1971 https://facultystaff.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/johnkerrytestimony.html
So why does Sanders raise the profile of Manson and the war at this time and not Kerry over previous years?
As to the crimes of the family being politically motivated by USA foreign policy regarding Vietnam I imagine them to have taken place within the wider cultural backdrop of anti establishment protest against government local and national, its agents in particular the police, as well as university faculties and other aspects of society perceived as preventing a desired change in society as promoted by student and community groups as well as popular musicians and actors below a certain age.
Perhaps with hindsight the protest was generational and cultural and not a genuine revolutionary protest. By 1975 both Nixon and those who avoided the draft were pardoned and the war itself ended and the period of protest subsided.
As to whether or not I am interested in the release of family members, essentially I believe it rests on the phrase 'with the chance of parole'. Nowadays a life sentence can be given that omits this phrase, and beside all received death sentences. Added to this if a life sentence was around 16 years and say tex or katie were expected to serve 16 years for each murder it totals more than the time served.
I do perceive that those imprisoned are at the mercy of a system that periodically changes the rules governing their release which appears unfair.
As to Led Zeppelin I will defend to my dying breath that Physical Graffitti is their finest release. The use of a single microphone to record the drum kit as opposed to recording each drum with a separate microphone achieves both a cerebral and physical state of pleasure to the listener.
"As to Led Zeppelin I will defend to my dying breath that Physical Graffitti is their finest release."
Yes, can't argue with this. 'Physical Graffitti' was my first new release LZ purchase as a teenager in 1975. I had bought LZ I-IV after their original release dates. 'Trampled Underfoot' and Kashmir' can be heard blasting from my house regularly.
To this day, I wonder what the message was that Squeaky wanted to convey to JPP. LZ had obviously come in under her radar.
Did you know that the recording of Ritchie Valens' Ohhh My Head (Boogie With Stu) on Physical Graffiti was the ONLY time they played it? It was impromptu. Ian Stewart (Stu) and they played it for fun while totally blotto. They liked it and added it to the album. They never played it again.
They deserved it.LOL. In their first three albums, they ripped off too many people. Apparently, a settlement was made on Blind Willie Dixon in respect of 'Whole Lotta Love' (he may have been blind, but he wasn't deaf, and knew when those white boys were plagiarising his music). As Robert Plant once said: "It's a long line of beggars and thieves"!
I don't blame her either. She was broke and I'm sure greedy attorneys took things like that on contingency.
I saw Led Zeppelin at Madison Square Garden. Summer of '77 I'm pretty sure because I only had my drivers permit at 16 so I technically wasn't allowed to drive in NYC, but naturally I did anyway.
Jimmy Page did a long solo that was pretty outrageous. That's back when Rock Music was real.
Oh my God, Matt! I bow down to you for that! I never did to see them live. I was 14 years old when they did a stint at Earl's Court in London in 1975, but in those days, most kids weren't allowed to travel 400 miles on their own. I applied for tickets for their O2 gig in 2007, but there were literally millions of applicants for 18,000 tickets, so I wasn't successful.
There were six concerts at MSG in June 1977. Here's the link which gives the set list and memorabilia for those gigs. You are also able to click on the official programme. http://www.ledzeppelin.com/show/june-10-1977
"They did it to give royalties to Valens' mother, if I remember correctly. There is a reference on the credits to Mrs Valens?"
I think they were really affected by the criticisms they were getting for ripping off old bluesmen when this was recorded. I noticed that on the album sessions that this song came from, there's also "When the levee breaks" which is part credited to Memphis Minnie and was from 1928. I suspect that their conscience was getting to them.
equinox12314 said...
"In their first three albums, they ripped off too many people. Apparently, a settlement was made on Blind Willie Dixon in respect of 'Whole Lotta Love' (he may have been blind, but he wasn't deaf)"
I don't think Willie Dixon was the blind one, I think it was Blind Willie Johnson. Funnily enough, given what Robert was saying about Bernie Sanders, Dixon was a conscientious objector too. He refused to go to war in the 40s for the same reasons Muhammad Ali refused to fight in Vietnam in the 60s. Blind Willie Johnson had one of the gruffest voices I've ever heard and was the one that came up originally with parts of what was ripped off for "In my time of dying" and "Nobody's fault but mine." I guess after trying to be nice to Mrs Valens and still getting sued, they just thought "what the heck !" and went back to ripping.
equinox12314 said...
"To this day, I wonder what the message was that Squeaky wanted to convey to JPP. LZ had obviously come in under her radar."
Recently, I can't recall where, I read that she wanted to warn him that something bad was heading his way. When you look at what happened over the next 10 years with the band members lives, she wasn't wrong !
christopher butche said...
"As to Led Zeppelin I will defend to my dying breath that Physical Grafitti is their finest release"
It was the first LP of theirs I bought and heard and along with III is my favourite although II, IV and HOH are busting at the door to get in there too. I often refer to Grafitti as "Coda before there was CODA." An acquaintance visibly started when I told him once how highly I rated III !
Robert Hendrickson said...
"I think this whole Manson Murder case thing is finally reaching it's peak of potential interest - as far as "TRUTHFUL" history is concerned"
I think you may be right. The 60s and just after, while fresh to those who have a close proximity to it, means less to the younger generations. Even trying to make history come alive doesn't necessarily appeal.
equinox, it was the June 10. I recognize the set list.
I grew up an hour from the George Washington bridge so as teens we could slip into NYC and get home without our parents knowing we had ever left the neighborhood. It was a great middle-class resort area with Air, Trees, Water and Animals. But, being that close to the city gave us the best of both worlds.
"Recently, I can't recall where, I read that she wanted to warn him that something bad was heading his way."
@Grimtraveller
According to the book 'The Hammer Of The Gods', in March 1975, Squeaky tried to meet Jimmy at his hotel. She was referred to LZ publicist, Danny Goldberg. She told DG something bad was going to happen to Jimmy, so DG told her to write it down in a note and he promptly threw it away. That's understandable given the number of nut jobs that big rock bands encounter. Whatever it was about, I reckon Page had a lucky escape. If he met Squeaky once, it might have been difficult to shake her off. I remember in the early 70s, an American female travelled over here and broke into Page's Holland Park mansion and was found brandishing a large knife. You only have to look at how the Family ingratiated themselves with Dennis Wilson to have cause for concern.
"equinox, I once got detention for drawing a picture of Manson on a desk."
Was that at school or, heaven forbid, at work:)? Matt, you are definitely showing signs of subversive behaviour - you would have been ideal Family material. This is the kind of confession you would keep for the California Parole Board.
"Well, it has been a year and a day since The Col posted on his blog."
Yes, Matt. I wish he'd do a post through this site, or as I've said before, wait until the transcript of Bobby's December 8 parole hearing comes out, and gives us his perspective on it.
BTW St Circumstance is also very quiet these days.
“I saw Led Zeppelin at Madison Square Garden. Summer of '77…”
Wow that must have been amazing Matt – iconic band in an iconic venue at a great time.
It reminded me that the Stones did 3 gigs in the garden on Thanksgiving ‘69 and the day after. They were recorded and released on the live album “Get Yer Ya Ya’s Out” – epic stuff, check the solo on this version of “Sympathy For the Devil”, a masterpiece which I will never tire of listening to.
The Maysles brothers captured the gigs in their documentary about the final weeks of the tour – “Gimme Shelter” is an incredibly evocative portrayal of not only the band at arguably their peak but also the times as the decade draws to a close. It’s right up there with Robert’s “Manson” in terms of how it really captures the mood of the times perfectly.
The following Monday, after these gigs was when the breakthrough in TLB was announced and warrants issued. Then, for the counter culture, all roads led to Altamont for the free concert on the Saturday – everyone hoping for one last big party a few months after Woodstock. Things didn’t quite work out that way – again all captured in the Maysles Brothers movie.
I wonder if there was any of the Spahn ranch crew at Altamont.
Ya know KEVIN: Watching "Gimme Shelter" actually gave me a high" over and over again. I bitch and complain about LBJ dividing this country in to, BUT the fact is the Vietnam WAR also provided what may be considered divine intervention. AND what many remember as the time of our lives.
I thank you for even mentioning MANSON along with "Shelter" BUT that "film" really captured it ALL. AND the "Stones" were from across the pond, as were the Beatles. Maybe the Brits were actually behind OUR "troubled times."
Last night I saw another Documentary on Ruben Salazar and HIS murder at the Chicano Moritorium in Aug of 1970. I was right there filming and it reminded me of perhaps the greatest EVENT any American can possibly experience - a "revolution."
I wonder how a comprehensive rockumentary on the sixties would go over NOW ?
I added a little more information in the "Susan Atkins at Cielo" thread regarding Rory White and the house in Topanga where the picture may have been taken.
"I wonder how a comprehensive rockumentary on the sixties would go over NOW?"
I think the content would still be very relevant and interesting to a certain audience - everyone on here for example! :)...BUT I think the reason why Gimme Shelter and Manson are what they are is down to much more than just the content.
The filming style, cameras used, angles, cuts, split screens etc all contribute hugely to creating the atmosphere and feeling that you're almost there, a part of it, right in the crowd at MSG or Altamont or at Spahn. It's no doubt down to the benefit of hindsight but in Gimme Shelter there is this feeling of impending doom, a kind of a dark, cold atmosphere runs thru the movie.
Music also plays a huge part in both "movies" - in Manson, I find it melancholic and haunting, in GS its dark and aggressive. I'm not so sure a modern doc could replicate either tbh. I think todays sfx and slick polished production would detract from the finished article - when it comes to the '60s I prefer a gritty, warts n all type style :)
"It's no doubt down to the benefit of hindsight but in Gimme Shelter there is this feeling of impending doom, a kind of a dark, cold atmosphere runs thru the movie"
I think it is definitely the hindsight thing, in the same way that hindsight informs "The Stones in the park" movie {re: Brian Jones death}, "Rock and roll circus" and even "One plus one" {re: Jones' disintegration}, all recorded within the same year space. If we knew nothing about the period or the internal wranglings of the Stones, it would probably be just another crummy old movie to a people totally shaped by first MTV and then the video aftermath.
Robert Hendrickson said...
"AND the 'Stones' were from across the pond, as were the Beatles. Maybe the Brits were actually behind OUR "troubled times."
While there were changes going on in Britain during the 60s, the real seismic changes weren't really seen until they began to bear fruit in the late 70s and beyond when a lot of the first wave of those born in the mid to late 50s and 60s started reaching adulthood. There was a documentary in '83 on the 60s in the UK and the opening part was called "Queen Victoria died in 1960." That period is seen more as a kind of beginning of changing thought and make up than one of upheaval. During the opening ceremony for the 2012 Olympics, I remember thinking and saying to people for months afterwards, that Britain {but more specifically, England} had undergone such a profound and deep seated change from the country my Dad sailed into in 1952. But though we've had riots, the process of change here is far less 'in yer face' and confrontational I think, than the States.
"I think it is definitely the hindsight thing, in the same way that hindsight informs "The Stones in the park" movie {re: Brian Jones death}, "Rock and roll circus" and even "One plus one" {re: Jones' disintegration}, all recorded within the same year space. If we knew nothing about the period or the internal wranglings of the Stones, it would probably be just another crummy old movie to a people totally shaped by first MTV and then the video aftermath."
Yeah there is no doubt it influenced the way I viewed all of those movies - but I think none of the other 3 you listed come near Gimme Shelter in terms of sheer "entertainment". Plus as you point the other movies have the spectre of Brian's demise hanging over them - GS doesn't.
It's probably better to ask someone who actually saw GS when it was released - I was 2 in 1970!
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ReplyDeleteSomeone somewhere somehow should make Watson watch these videos and see if they jog his memory in any way.
ReplyDeleteGood insight to the layout of the house...but I think I need a Kwell ! Lol.
ReplyDeleteThanks Chats and DebS. These may not be very clear, but they are invaluable in giving a perspective of the distance between the main house and the guest house. They are remarkably close together - I can't see how Garretson didn't hear anything. The panoramic view of Los Angeles shows a considerable covering of smog.
ReplyDeleteReznor and the lads sure knew what they were doing when they rented the placed. It got them publicity.
Trent's regret rings hollow...he knew what he was doing.
ReplyDeleteThanks Deb and Chat. I didn't realize the guest house had that view too.
ReplyDeleteI was turned around picturing the guest house being up against the hill on the side where the view is. And I didn't realize the hill was so big up against the house like that. And the proximity of garage to house was closer than I thought.
AND the guest house was bigger than I thought with two doors. I guess the door on the right side was the front door? Would have been the one Katie tried, if she really did try it.
equinox12314 said...
ReplyDelete"they are invaluable in giving a perspective of the distance between the main house and the guest house. They are remarkably close together - I can't see how Garretson didn't hear anything"
When you look at this ariel shot, you see how close the two buildings are. I keep thinking how small the swimming pool was !
Although Garretson has since said that he did hear things and even saw things that night, if he had been listening to music on the stereo I can see how he might not have heard anything. I can't recall where I read it but recently, I read that the stereo in the main house was playing which could possibly account for why none of the inhabitants heard the 4 gunshots initially.
But sounds are funny things. I was listening to music on headphones one night and I heard this booming or banging sound. I later learned that downstairs two floors and eight houses along from ours, the police had broken down one of our neighbour's doors !
black_love_in_space said...
"Someone somewhere somehow should make Watson watch these videos and see if they jog his memory in any way"
What sort of thing do you feel should come to mind ? Having slaughtered 7 people, been caught, tried, convicted and sentenced to death, do we really want to hear anymore from him regarding Cielo ?
I'm genuinely curious.
That should be this ariel shot !
ReplyDeleteMy apologies !
Yeah I was tanked, as per the norm. I don't even remeber posting. But I would be curious to see how that ol Tex would react to being confronted with something like this, to see if his mannerisms change or if his temperature rises.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteGrimtraveller said...
'... I keep thinking how small the swimming pool was !"
Yes, indeed, you would be swimming many laps in that! In fact, that was what occurred to me on the last post when Dennis Wilson's property was featured. It is a truly magnificent piece of real estate, but the pool was remarkably small. Maybe there is some kind of town and country planning restriction in place - I am not acquainted with California planning law!
Grim traveller said...
"...I read that the stereo in the main house was playing which could possibly account for why none of the inhabitants heard the 4 gunshots initially."
I mentioned in the last post, that I have been working my way through 'Restless Souls' and it is mentioned that the Tates thought that Bill Garretson may have hidden in the guest house's very large walk in closet. I am sure that during one of this site's tours they visited Cielo, and there was building equipment like a concrete mixer in close proximity, but it couldn't be heard due to the canyon lifting the sound.
On video #1 pause it at 0:37. THAT IS THE "WINDOW" THAT SUSAN IS LOOKING OUT OF IN AUSTIN ANN'S LAST POST!!!
ReplyDeleteMatt said...
ReplyDeleteOn video #1 pause it at 0:37. THAT IS THE "WINDOW" THAT SUSAN IS LOOKING OUT OF IN AUSTIN ANN'S LAST POST!!!
@Matt, I said in the last post that it could be one of the windows at the guest house. Is the property at 0.37 the guest house?
It looked like the main house to me but I could of course be wrong.
ReplyDeleteHi Matt: Are you coming to LA for the game here?
ReplyDeleteBLACK, LOVE, etc: WOW, you just hit the ball out of the park.
That's exactly what a GOOD head "shrink" would do. Take "TEX" BACK through HIS Hell, including the church where HIS head was originally screwed-up.
It's called "therapy"
I wish, RH. I'll have to settle for TV. LET'S GO METS!!!
ReplyDeleteOh, and AustinAnn WAS RIGHT!!!!
Equinox and Grim the pool at Dennis Wilson's is a relatively new type of pool to my knowledge designed for only one person to swim laps. Saves on water and energy.
ReplyDeleteMatt the window in the Susan Atkins's post is at least 6 panes wide without break. At :47 sec. in this video #1 it is 4 panes wide before a break. At :37 sec. it looks out over the valley. At :57 sec. you can see Linda and Abilene fully clothed.
ReplyDeleteGtrav "What sort of thing do you feel should come to mind ? Having slaughtered 7 people, been caught, tried, convicted and sentenced to death, do we really want to hear anymore from him regarding Cielo ?"
ReplyDeleteYes we do.
I know he has repented etc, but it would be still be good to hear a definitive, bullshit-free, un-self-conscious, parole-board-oblivious, honest recollection of the details. Those morons have never got their stories straight.
If he's capable of that at this stage, which, given the vagaries of the human memory, is highly doubtful.
It's the guest house at :37, but that's not where she was photographed. If you look the interior photos of the guesthouse, it's easy to rule out
ReplyDeleteThe window at :37 is clearly different - however there's a window at :07 in the second video which is at least six panes wide before it hits a jamb and is the absolute match of the one in the Atkins photo.
ReplyDeleteHow curious!
Similar at :07, but I can assure you that they are not the same. Too many things don't match up in that scenario
ReplyDeleteYes I noticed there was a window facing the front which was at least 6 frames wide, but looking at the Atkins photo at the exterior I don't think it looks remotely like the Polanski residence. Now I am curious where the hell was that? Also I can't see police cuffs on her wrist and it looks like she's wearing civilian type clothing. It's also hard to imagine she would have been holding incense during a police field trip.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteThere is a good clear view of Sharon standing at Cielo's windows in George Vreeland Hill's video with photos by George E Smith. The point of reference is 02:15.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d_VMleF5Jw
Thanks, equinox.
ReplyDeleteI'm still open to being convinced, but these look like the same windows Susan is standing beside.
ReplyDeleteIf you look to the right in the Susan pic Click you can see a white house (pun intended) behind the tree and one of the piers underneath the house for support. I don't think there was any structure like that on or that close to the Cielo grounds.
In the TOTLB thread on the Susan pic, it was mentioned that the photo we're discussing was also in the book "The Myth of Helter Skelter" and the photo was credited to "Rory White" a friend of Susan's. Beauders also mentioned that Susan lived with White in January of 1969 when Manson kicked her out of the Family.
Zezo's father was a man named "Bruce White" who Susan met in New Mexico while travelling with the family and he lived with them in the Topanga Canyon are for a month.
"Lorrie White" was a man that Susan was engaged to be married to Susan while she was in prison in the 70's.
I think I've read that Bruce, Lorrie, and Rory White are all the same person, but I'm not totally sure.
In other words, it's quite possible that this picture was taken in the Topanga Canyon area during a time when she lived in close proximity to a man with the last name "White".
My husband, then new boyfriend, was a neighbor of Rory White's at Buchanan's Ranch in Topanga, a collection of small cabins at the end of Montau off Grandview. Shortly after her arrest, authorities brought her there to talk to (question?) Rory. He (husband) hadn't seen her up there before that day, so she wasn't living there the previous winter. If I could see the photo of the house on piers, likely could tell if it's Rory's cabin or not.
DeleteGreat info. Ziggy thanks. It's making more sense to me now.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDelete@Matt,
yup, they look the same to me!
ReplyDelete@ziggy
ziggy, you are an unparalleled genius. LOL. The photo which Ann posted looks like it was taken in the same place and time as the one you have shown us. The tree branch falls in the same place. It appears that that style of window was common in the Topanga/Benedict Canyon areas.
I wonder if Bruce/Lorrie/Rory White ever made an attempt to get custody of, or access to, Zezo. I know he was adopted out and Susan said on a tv interview that she never saw him again.
MHN said:
ReplyDelete“…it would still be good to hear a definitive, bullshit-free, un-self-conscious, parole-board-oblivious, honest recollection of the details…”
Unfortunately, Michael I don’t think we will ever get that from Tex or indeed any of them. Aside from the implications regarding the parole board there would possibly be other stuff to consider.
For instance, let’s say he confirmed the Straight Satans played a bigger part or maybe that Brenda was part of a group who did return to Cielo, or any number of possible scenarios which implicates people who weren’t tried the ramifications would be huge - not only from a legal perspective but possibly also from the point of view of his own personal safety.
Tex revealing any new information now, would be of no benefit to him whatsoever, aside from clearing his conscience (assuming he has one).
And as you pointed out, how reliable would his memory of events be at this stage anyway – murky at best I suspect, certainly in terms of detail.
ziggyosterberg said...
ReplyDelete"Zezo's father was a man named 'Bruce White'"
I'm still curious as to how she knew that, nudge, nudge, wink, wink, elbow, elbow !
ziggyosterberg said...
"Rory White {Beauders also mentioned that Susan lived with White}
Bruce White {Zezo's father was a man named 'Bruce White' who Susan met in New Mexico while travelling with the family and he lived with them}
Lorrie White {'Lorrie White' was a man that Susan was engaged to be married to}"
It would appear that Susan was into white men......
MHN said...
"it would still be good to hear a definitive, bullshit-free, un-self-conscious, parole-board-oblivious, honest recollection of the details. Those morons have never got their stories straight"
I don't think you'll ever get that. It could be because he {they} has one eye on the parole board but in terms of the group, there's an aspect of that that simply doesn't fly for me. Take Susan Atkins. She, at least since 1977, has vehemently denied that she went to Cielo to further or initiate HS. And right from 1969 says she never killed Sharon Tate. If what the parole board says is true, that alone means she could never have got out {I know, I know, she didn't in any event !} because she did not accept as true the findings of the court. Same with Bobby. He does not accept as true, the court record. He accepts bits of it. Pat does not accept the court findings that she carved "WAR" on LLB etc....The point being, their trying to fit the parole board rules have become something of a non sequitur in my opinion.
So what you have IMO with Tex is the simple reality that he can't fully remember from his own memory. He can't remember in crystal clear detail the events as they unfolded at Cielo, anymore than any of us could remember in chronological, crystal clear detail the full events surrounding the birth of any of our children or our third day at our first job or many events that have happened in our lives that mattered. We'll recall great chunks of them or maybe small chunks, but every moment & word and in chronological order ? Even people recalling happy memories rarely have total detailed recall. What people tend to give is a précis.
In Tex's case even that might be further complicated by the fact that he wasn't looking to get caught so the recounting of details was done reluctantly well after the event rather than like a journalist or film maker recording on the go with the express purpose of giving clarity. Much of his recounting of events reads like other well detailed accounts. It's like he knows the shit he perpetrated because he can't deny it but he can't recall it from his actual memory so he has to rely on other accounts.
Kevin, can't disagree with that. But I just thought the Holy Spirit would be urging him that the truth would set him free etc etc. Oh well...
ReplyDeleteAustinAnn - you have sparked the biggest debate here for some time. I take my hat off to you.
MHN, I actually didn't mean to, well, this time at least. :)
ReplyDeleteThe unexpected ones are sometimes the classics.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeletegrimtraveller said...
Pat does not accept the court findings that she carved "WAR" on LLB etc....
I argued this with someone in another group and I'll state it here. Every time I look at the picture of Leno with WAR on his stomach. I can't figure out how it was carved there. It looks to me like it was written on his stomach or on the photo with a Magic Marker or a Sharpie.
grim said: "It would appear that Susan was into white men......"
ReplyDeleteshe may have been into white men, but she settled for a Whiteman LOL
Actually, doesn't Zezo look rather dark skinned in his baby pic?
ReplyDelete@grimtraveller & Mr. Humphrat - Baby Zezo looks like a young Larry Bailey. ;-)
Sadie's favorite song
@equinox12314 - raymond francis olsen and Beauders at the TOTLB site deserve all the credit for making sense of that pic.
Here's another helpful TOTLB thread on baby Zezo - note the Led Zep-Jimmy Page mention on page 4. :-)
I agree Ziggy. Plus I guess if Bruce White lived with the family he probably wasn't African American-but maybe Latino?
ReplyDelete
ReplyDelete@ziggyosterberg
To clear up any confusion on the TOTLB thread regarding a connection between Page's symbol and baby Zezo, the following link explains that Jimmy got the sigil from an ancient grimoire, a magical textbook called "Le veritable dragon rouge" and it is on page 91 of the French edition from 1521. There is a photograph of the page 91.
http://forums.ledzeppelin.com/index.php?/topic/2260-what-is-the-true-meaning-of-zoso/&page=7#comment-747721
equinox12314 said...
ReplyDelete"confusion...regarding a connection between Page's symbol and baby Zezo"
Paul Watkins claimed that he and Charlie named Zezo:
"Hey, why don't we just call him Caesar," I finally suggested halfheartedly. "Uh…uh…hey, that's good, you know…I like that…yeah, maybe just Zezo." "How about Zezos ZeZe ?" "Right on." Charlie laughed. "Yeah, Zezos ZeZe…Zadfrak. How's that, Zezos ZeZe Zadfrak." "Zezos ZeZe Zadfrak…sounds good to me." "Dig it, that way he'll always be at the end of the line…and the lines will be so long, he just won't wait in them…you know ?"
Years later, I would reflect back on the joy of that night: the unity of the Family; the birth of Sadie's child"
The Zep LP with the symbols didn't come out till the end of 1971. Although it's known as Led Zeppelin IV, it never actually had a title. I was listening to it a couple of days back. 35 years after I first got it, I never get bored of it.
orwhut said...
"Every time I look at the picture of Leno with WAR on his stomach, I can't figure out how it was carved there. It looks to me like it was written on his stomach or on the photo with a Magic Marker or a Sharpie"
I first saw that picture in the pre~internet days in a book I had called "The Garbage people." I remember at the time being horrified that those pictures could turn up in a book for all the world to see and when I finished the book, I chucked it. I recently bought it again under a different name but as I started to read it in the bath today, I fell asleep and it dropped in so I've spent the evening drying it out !
While the death shots of the victims only go to emphasize the savagery of the killers those nights, it's actually the Leno one that encapsulates it for me like no other. And it's the way WAR is carved on him. You'd expect it to be in thin writing, as in sliced by the sharp blade of a knife. But as you point out, the lettering is so thick and deep. It looks like it took actual strength and effort to carve it to get it to look like that. It doesn't strike me as an easy thing to do.
"...she carved WAR in his chest and said: Here's one man who won't send his son off to WAR and then she stuck a fork in his stomach."
ReplyDeleteDid SHE mean Bugliosi's B & W race war or did SHE mean the Vietnam RACE war ?
Could be a relevant question ?
"Clutching forks and knives to eat the bacon" all the "messages" refer to Beatles tunes. The fork and knife protruding from Leno are symbols of the rich establishment. Or something. ?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletegrimtraveller said... And it's the way WAR is carved on him. You'd expect it to be in thin writing, as in sliced by the sharp blade of a knife. But as you point out, the lettering is so thick and deep. It looks like it took actual strength and effort to carve it to get it to look like that. It doesn't strike me as an easy thing to do.
ReplyDeleteI suppose shrinking of the skin or swelling of the body could have pulled the cuts more open and account for the width of the letters. The problem is, I can't tell that either shrinking or swelling has taken place.
Grim traveller said...
ReplyDelete"...The Zep LP with the symbols didn't come out till the end of 1971. Although it's known as Led Zeppelin IV, it never actually had a title. I was listening to it a couple of days back. 35 years after I first got it, I never get bored of it."
@grimtraveller
I do know this as I am one of the long standing, high posting members over at the LZ official site (not under the same name I have here). My purpose in posting this information was that ziggy had mentioned a TOTLB conversation where the poster seems to have confused Page's 'zozo' as being a word (a common misconception). Indeed, the only direct connection that us zepheads can make between the Family and LZ was the occasion when Squeaky turned up at Zep's Los Angeles hotel and tried to pass a message to Jimmy through SwanSong executive Danny Goldberg saying she needed to meet him urgently. DG thought she was a nutter and threw the note away. He only realised her identity when they were watching the news after the Ford assassination attempt.
Yes, I agree the fourth album is right up there as one of the best of all time - it's an embarrassment of riches.
I have a relevant QUESTION: Does ANYONE actually CARE whether Bruce gets parolled, S. Atkins goes to Hell or Heaven, TEX is now a Jesus follower, Charles Manson did or did not ORDER the TLB murders in order to ignite Helter Skelter OR even whether Bernie Sanders is a devout "Socialist" who from 1964 to 1968 was a consicentious OBJECTOR (draft dodger) deeply involved in the anti-Vietnam WAR movement ?
ReplyDeleteIn short, am I the ONLY one who sees the connection between the Vietnam WAR and the Manson Family exploits ?
Maybe we could have a simple straw pole:
Are YOU a "I care" OR a "Bah-Humbug ?
equinox12314 said...
ReplyDelete"I do know this"
I'd have been surprised if you didn't. The comment wasn't aimed at you, it was more of a general thing. Sometimes all kinds of connections get made that couldn't possibly have been.
Robert Hendrickson said...
"I have a relevant QUESTION: Does ANYONE actually CARE whether Bruce gets parolled, S. Atkins goes to Hell or Heaven, TEX is now a Jesus follower, Charles Manson did or did not ORDER the TLB murders in order to ignite Helter Skelter OR even whether Bernie Sanders is a devout "Socialist" who from 1964 to 1968 was a consicentious OBJECTOR (draft dodger) deeply involved in the anti-Vietnam WAR movement ?"
I think that there are some that care about some of those things and others that don't. I've never heard of Bernie Sanders so it's hard to care unless I do some research into who he was {is} and what he stood for.
Contributors to the blog obviously have an interest in the case and some of it's wider aspects and I suspect we all have our biases. Also, things that someone might bring up at any given point may be of no interest at the time but may turn out to be the start of a continued interest. For example, the point you make about Black Muslims, when I first read it, I registered it but never took it with any depth. But over the months I have done increasingly and am able to have my own opinions on their relevance to this case. Whereas your point about the murders possibly being a kind of performance art sparked me off right away.
Robert Hendrickson said...
"In short, am I the ONLY one who sees the connection between the Vietnam WAR and the Manson Family exploits ?"
That's a hard question to answer because you're often really cryptic about it. You pose many questions and challenge us to think but that's not always helpful because if you have something in mind, it could be 50 years before anyone ever "gets it" without some direction.
What would be helpful would be for you to say exactly what you see the connection to be. In one sense, yeah, I can see a connection. I can see that some of the guys that were in the Family were ex military and one of them had even fought in Vietnam. But those guys weren't part of the Family death squads. I can see that a number of the Family were against the Vietnam war. But so were many people and on both sides of the Atlantic. I can see that line of thinking that says that it's deemed OK for the Pres to have people he doesn't know killed but not for others who may be equally passionate in their view etc.
What exactly is this connection that you see that others {myself included} obviously aren't seeing ?
GRIMM:
ReplyDeleteI take that to mean YOU care and YOU see a connection.
And YOU, as always, articulate YOUR points with such clearity, most of the time you sound like an "alien being" from another planet.
I guess, MY point is, I must sound like an "alien" also, BUT more because I come from a warpped TIME in history where KILLING was considered a "patriotic" passion play.
NOW it's simply a "business" with a product, CEO, Board of Directors, employees and stock-holders. AND some colateral damage.
BUT because Bernie Sanders is a prominent front runner in the race for the U.S. Presidency, I see a new kind of visibility for the Vietnam WAR / Manson Family "connection."
OTHERWISE - I think this whole Manson Murder case thing is finally reaching it's peak of potential interest - as far as "TRUTHFUL" history is concerned.
Mr Hendrickson. John Kerry, your secretary of state since 2003 who fought in Vietnam and was a member of a veteran's anti war group gave the following statement to the senate in 1971 https://facultystaff.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/johnkerrytestimony.html
ReplyDeleteSo why does Sanders raise the profile of Manson and the war at this time and not Kerry over previous years?
As to the crimes of the family being politically motivated by USA foreign policy regarding Vietnam I imagine them to have taken place within the wider cultural backdrop of anti establishment protest against government local and national, its agents in particular the police, as well as university faculties and other aspects of society perceived as preventing a desired change in society as promoted by student and community groups as well as popular musicians and actors below a certain age.
Perhaps with hindsight the protest was generational and cultural and not a genuine revolutionary protest. By 1975 both Nixon and those who avoided the draft were pardoned and the war itself ended and the period of protest subsided.
As to whether or not I am interested in the release of family members, essentially I believe it rests on the phrase 'with the chance of parole'. Nowadays a life sentence can be given that omits this phrase, and beside all received death sentences. Added to this if a life sentence was around 16 years and say tex or katie were expected to serve 16 years for each murder it totals more than the time served.
I do perceive that those imprisoned are at the mercy of a system that periodically changes the rules governing their release which appears unfair.
As to Led Zeppelin I will defend to my dying breath that Physical Graffitti is their finest release. The use of a single microphone to record the drum kit as opposed to recording each drum with a separate microphone achieves both a cerebral and physical state of pleasure to the listener.
Kerry 2013 not 2003.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeletechristopher but said...
"As to Led Zeppelin I will defend to my dying breath that Physical Graffitti is their finest release."
Yes, can't argue with this. 'Physical Graffitti' was my first new release LZ purchase as a teenager in 1975. I had bought LZ I-IV after their original release dates. 'Trampled Underfoot' and Kashmir' can be heard blasting from my house regularly.
To this day, I wonder what the message was that Squeaky wanted to convey to JPP. LZ had obviously come in under her radar.
Did you know that the recording of Ritchie Valens' Ohhh My Head (Boogie With Stu) on Physical Graffiti was the ONLY time they played it? It was impromptu. Ian Stewart (Stu) and they played it for fun while totally blotto. They liked it and added it to the album. They never played it again.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDelete@Matt,
They did it to give royalties to Valens' mother, if I remember correctly. There is a reference on the credits to Mrs Valens?
They did the right thing and credited her so she could receive proportionate royalties. But, she sued them anyway.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteMatt said...
"...But, she sued them anyway."
They deserved it.LOL. In their first three albums, they ripped off too many people. Apparently, a settlement was made on Blind Willie Dixon in respect of 'Whole Lotta Love' (he may have been blind, but he wasn't deaf, and knew when those white boys were plagiarising his music). As Robert Plant once said: "It's a long line of beggars and thieves"!
I don't blame her either. She was broke and I'm sure greedy attorneys took things like that on contingency.
ReplyDeleteI saw Led Zeppelin at Madison Square Garden. Summer of '77 I'm pretty sure because I only had my drivers permit at 16 so I technically wasn't allowed to drive in NYC, but naturally I did anyway.
Jimmy Page did a long solo that was pretty outrageous. That's back when Rock Music was real.
ReplyDeleteMatt said...
"..I saw Led Zeppelin at Madison Square Garden."
Oh my God, Matt! I bow down to you for that! I never did to see them live. I was 14 years old when they did a stint at Earl's Court in London in 1975, but in those days, most kids weren't allowed to travel 400 miles on their own. I applied for tickets for their O2 gig in 2007, but there were literally millions of applicants for 18,000 tickets, so I wasn't successful.
There were six concerts at MSG in June 1977. Here's the link which gives the set list and memorabilia for those gigs. You are also able to click on the official programme. http://www.ledzeppelin.com/show/june-10-1977
http://blurppy.com/2011/11/18/led-zeppelin-the-greatest-cover-band-of-all-time/
ReplyDeleteWow Chats, I'm blown away that Jake Holmes wrote & recorded Dazed and Confused first. I may need to reevaluate my life.
ReplyDeleteequinox12314 said...
ReplyDelete"They did it to give royalties to Valens' mother, if I remember correctly. There is a reference on the credits to Mrs Valens?"
I think they were really affected by the criticisms they were getting for ripping off old bluesmen when this was recorded. I noticed that on the album sessions that this song came from, there's also "When the levee breaks" which is part credited to Memphis Minnie and was from 1928. I suspect that their conscience was getting to them.
equinox12314 said...
"In their first three albums, they ripped off too many people. Apparently, a settlement was made on Blind Willie Dixon in respect of 'Whole Lotta Love' (he may have been blind, but he wasn't deaf)"
I don't think Willie Dixon was the blind one, I think it was Blind Willie Johnson. Funnily enough, given what Robert was saying about Bernie Sanders, Dixon was a conscientious objector too. He refused to go to war in the 40s for the same reasons Muhammad Ali refused to fight in Vietnam in the 60s.
Blind Willie Johnson had one of the gruffest voices I've ever heard and was the one that came up originally with parts of what was ripped off for "In my time of dying" and "Nobody's fault but mine."
I guess after trying to be nice to Mrs Valens and still getting sued, they just thought "what the heck !" and went back to ripping.
equinox12314 said...
"To this day, I wonder what the message was that Squeaky wanted to convey to JPP. LZ had obviously come in under her radar."
Recently, I can't recall where, I read that she wanted to warn him that something bad was heading his way. When you look at what happened over the next 10 years with the band members lives, she wasn't wrong !
christopher butche said...
"As to Led Zeppelin I will defend to my dying breath that Physical Grafitti is their finest release"
It was the first LP of theirs I bought and heard and along with III is my favourite although II, IV and HOH are busting at the door to get in there too. I often refer to Grafitti as "Coda before there was CODA."
An acquaintance visibly started when I told him once how highly I rated III !
Robert Hendrickson said...
"I think this whole Manson Murder case thing is finally reaching it's peak of potential interest - as far as "TRUTHFUL" history is concerned"
I think you may be right.
The 60s and just after, while fresh to those who have a close proximity to it, means less to the younger generations. Even trying to make history come alive doesn't necessarily appeal.
equinox, it was the June 10. I recognize the set list.
ReplyDeleteI grew up an hour from the George Washington bridge so as teens we could slip into NYC and get home without our parents knowing we had ever left the neighborhood. It was a great middle-class resort area with Air, Trees, Water and Animals. But, being that close to the city gave us the best of both worlds.
ReplyDeleteGrim traveller said...
"Recently, I can't recall where, I read that she wanted to warn him that something bad was heading his way."
@Grimtraveller
According to the book 'The Hammer Of The Gods', in March 1975, Squeaky tried to meet Jimmy at his hotel. She was referred to LZ publicist, Danny Goldberg. She told DG something bad was going to happen to Jimmy, so DG told her to write it down in a note and he promptly threw it away. That's understandable given the number of nut jobs that big rock bands encounter. Whatever it was about, I reckon Page had a lucky escape. If he met Squeaky once, it might have been difficult to shake her off. I remember in the early 70s, an American female travelled over here and broke into Page's Holland Park mansion and was found brandishing a large knife. You only have to look at how the Family ingratiated themselves with Dennis Wilson to have cause for concern.
Matt said...
ReplyDelete"It was a great middle-class resort area with Air, Trees, Water and Animals."
Charlie's influence on you is becoming apparent. LOL.
equinox, I once got detention for drawing a picture of Manson on a desk.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteMatt said...
"equinox, I once got detention for drawing a picture of Manson on a desk."
Was that at school or, heaven forbid, at work:)? Matt, you are definitely showing signs of subversive behaviour - you would have been ideal Family material. This is the kind of confession you would keep for the California Parole Board.
Well, it has been a year and a day since The Col posted on his blog.
ReplyDeleteHe's still digesting "Life After Manson"
ReplyDeleteHe did get the deluxe package after all.
Matt said...
ReplyDelete"Well, it has been a year and a day since The Col posted on his blog."
Yes, Matt. I wish he'd do a post through this site, or as I've said before, wait until the transcript of Bobby's December 8 parole hearing comes out, and gives us his perspective on it.
BTW St Circumstance is also very quiet these days.
Matt said:
ReplyDelete“I saw Led Zeppelin at Madison Square Garden. Summer of '77…”
Wow that must have been amazing Matt – iconic band in an iconic venue at a great time.
It reminded me that the Stones did 3 gigs in the garden on Thanksgiving ‘69 and the day after. They were recorded and released on the live album “Get Yer Ya Ya’s Out” – epic stuff, check the solo on this version of “Sympathy For the Devil”, a masterpiece which I will never tire of listening to.
The Maysles brothers captured the gigs in their documentary about the final weeks of the tour – “Gimme Shelter” is an incredibly evocative portrayal of not only the band at arguably their peak but also the times as the decade draws to a close. It’s right up there with Robert’s “Manson” in terms of how it really captures the mood of the times perfectly.
The following Monday, after these gigs was when the breakthrough in TLB was announced and warrants issued. Then, for the counter culture, all roads led to Altamont for the free concert on the Saturday – everyone hoping for one last big party a few months after Woodstock. Things didn’t quite work out that way – again all captured in the Maysles Brothers movie.
I wonder if there was any of the Spahn ranch crew at Altamont.
Ya know KEVIN: Watching "Gimme Shelter" actually gave me a high" over and over again. I bitch and complain about LBJ dividing this country in to, BUT the fact is the Vietnam WAR also provided what may be considered divine intervention. AND what many remember as the time of our lives.
ReplyDeleteI thank you for even mentioning MANSON along with "Shelter" BUT that "film" really captured it ALL. AND the "Stones" were from across the pond, as were the Beatles. Maybe the Brits were actually behind OUR "troubled times."
Last night I saw another Documentary on Ruben Salazar and HIS murder at the Chicano Moritorium in Aug of 1970. I was right there filming and it reminded me of perhaps the greatest EVENT any American can possibly experience - a "revolution."
I wonder how a comprehensive rockumentary on the sixties would go over NOW ?
ReplyDeleteI added a little more information in the "Susan Atkins at Cielo" thread regarding Rory White and the house in Topanga where the picture may have been taken.
Robert said:
ReplyDelete"I wonder how a comprehensive rockumentary on the sixties would go over NOW?"
I think the content would still be very relevant and interesting to a certain audience - everyone on here for example! :)...BUT I think the reason why Gimme Shelter and Manson are what they are is down to much more than just the content.
The filming style, cameras used, angles, cuts, split screens etc all contribute hugely to creating the atmosphere and feeling that you're almost there, a part of it, right in the crowd at MSG or Altamont or at Spahn. It's no doubt down to the benefit of hindsight but in Gimme Shelter there is this feeling of impending doom, a kind of a dark, cold atmosphere runs thru the movie.
Music also plays a huge part in both "movies" - in Manson, I find it melancholic and haunting, in GS its dark and aggressive. I'm not so sure a modern doc could replicate either tbh. I think todays sfx and slick polished production would detract from the finished article - when it comes to the '60s I prefer a gritty, warts n all type style :)
Kevin Marx said...
ReplyDelete"It's no doubt down to the benefit of hindsight but in Gimme Shelter there is this feeling of impending doom, a kind of a dark, cold atmosphere runs thru the movie"
I think it is definitely the hindsight thing, in the same way that hindsight informs "The Stones in the park" movie {re: Brian Jones death}, "Rock and roll circus" and even "One plus one" {re: Jones' disintegration}, all recorded within the same year space. If we knew nothing about the period or the internal wranglings of the Stones, it would probably be just another crummy old movie to a people totally shaped by first MTV and then the video aftermath.
Robert Hendrickson said...
"AND the 'Stones' were from across the pond, as were the Beatles. Maybe the Brits were actually behind OUR "troubled times."
While there were changes going on in Britain during the 60s, the real seismic changes weren't really seen until they began to bear fruit in the late 70s and beyond when a lot of the first wave of those born in the mid to late 50s and 60s started reaching adulthood. There was a documentary in '83 on the 60s in the UK and the opening part was called "Queen Victoria died in 1960." That period is seen more as a kind of beginning of changing thought and make up than one of upheaval.
During the opening ceremony for the 2012 Olympics, I remember thinking and saying to people for months afterwards, that Britain {but more specifically, England} had undergone such a profound and deep seated change from the country my Dad sailed into in 1952. But though we've had riots, the process of change here is far less 'in yer face' and confrontational I think, than the States.
Grim T said:
ReplyDelete"I think it is definitely the hindsight thing, in the same way that hindsight informs "The Stones in the park" movie {re: Brian Jones death}, "Rock and roll circus" and even "One plus one" {re: Jones' disintegration}, all recorded within the same year space. If we knew nothing about the period or the internal wranglings of the Stones, it would probably be just another crummy old movie to a people totally shaped by first MTV and then the video aftermath."
Yeah there is no doubt it influenced the way I viewed all of those movies - but I think none of the other 3 you listed come near Gimme Shelter in terms of sheer "entertainment". Plus as you point the other movies have the spectre of Brian's demise hanging over them - GS doesn't.
It's probably better to ask someone who actually saw GS when it was released - I was 2 in 1970!
If you fancy giving your ears a treat, over on youtube is the complete Altamont audio bootleg. Fairly chaotic to say the least.
ReplyDeletewww.youtube.com/watch?v=guDTcaS9GcM
ReplyDeleteLink is for Altamont audio
Thanks Christopher - I have listened to that before. You're right, chaotic is the only way to describe it.
ReplyDelete