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Tuesday, June 9, 2015
Vincent Bugliosi Dies
News was announced late Monday night that Vincent Bugliosi died on Saturday June 6th, 2015. He was 80 years old. The cause of death has not been released.
Manson and Bugliosi were virtually the same age, just three months apart in age. I wonder if any more information about the murders and/or the Family will come out now. And what will Linda Kasabian say now that she doesn't have Bugliosi to handle her anymore?
I just read his son announced he passed away from cancer. DebS it will be interesting to see how it plays out with case/family info and Linda Kasabian. Perhaps a book from her in the future?
I read the book he wrote on JKF and was astounded at the detail, since it also included a CD with more material. I watched and listened to interviews featuring him and he said that writing the book took a lot out of him. He maintained that he did not use a computer to do it. While I did not always agree with the man, I welcomed his views and input.
I saw him on a doco series about the 60s recently, i cant remember what it was called, Tom Hanks produced it; anyway, i remember thinking he looked fairly unwell in that.. RIP
It's difficult to say what will happen vis a vis Linda Kasabian and any future revelations from her. I would have thought that her contract was with the District Attorney's office, rather than Vincent Bugliosi personally. If she reveals the areas where he was tutoring her on answers, and perhaps advising to withhold pertinent information, she could put her immunity deal at risk, no?
Anyway, RIP Mr Bugliosi. As I always thought, his old adversary outlived him. I wonder what the reaction is in a certain cell in the PHU at Corcoran.
Not Waving - his JFK book is remarkable, I agree. There's been no great love for the man in the TLB blogosphere (I mean Bugliosi - not JFK!) and perhaps for very good reason, but I think there's always been a grudging respect at least. If nothing else, he is the man who created the Charles Manson that the world knows. Whether that creation stands the test of time we will see. My money would be on Bug's Manson outliving any other version, because as one commenter said here recently, it's the most enthralling Manson we have, and the human race needs that. If the truth about Charles Manson turns out to be routine and vanilla, then the world is a poorer, blander place.
Rest in peace, Mr. Bugliosi!! I never understood the intense hatred people had for this man. Hey, he deserved a pat on the back as far as I am concerned, for putting those creeps behind bars! Robert Durst probably wouldn't of even stood a chance of an acquittal against Mr. B!
I also admired his rage and moral disgust at the OJ Simpson defense team, in his book on the subject and in various debates. He was evidently genuinely appalled that a team of highly paid lawyers essentially invented a story (racist cops framing innocent OJ) that they clearly must have KNOWN was an outright lie, and fished around for any and every tiny procedural lapse, which they magnified out of all proportion to win an acquittal for a murderer. For their own fame and their careers they wanted to win at any cost, even if it meant inflaming racial tensions in the US and denying two murder victims justice. Every one of them knew he was guilty, and I wish that Bug had handled that case instead of the dreadful Marcia Clark. (Obviously, some here will find it highly ironic that Bugliosi was disgusted with trial lawyers inventing a story to achieve their desired verdict...)
I have long felt that in TLB blogosphere that Bugliosi has received a bad press in general and I've long felt it to be unfair. He did the job he had to do and while a lot of people may crush me in cyberspace for saying this, the odds, frankly, were stacked in Charlie and the Family's favour. At a number of points in the investigation, preparation for trial and trial itself, things could have gone drastically wrong for the prosecution. And for Bugliosi in particular. How in the world he persuaded the DA's office to let him run with Helter skelter in relation to Charlie {he didn't need it for Patty or Charles W because their prints condemned them and he didn't need it for Susan A because her big mouth, grand jury testimony and desire to act the tough acid girl in jail did for her} shows a tenacity that you either take your hat off to or are majorly irritated by. That said, simply because of the enduring fascination with the case, I think almost all the players in this saga, major or minor, have been cast in the TLB blogosphere {and in general, actually} in ways that are arguably unfair and that few of them would ever have chosen for themselves.
As a sidethought, it's almost ironic to wish for a man who wrote a book questioning the existence of God that he "rest in peace."
"The Gladiator and the Lion" the LAW vs the OUTLAW in the last great murder trial - that's how he will be remembered. My guess is that while MANSON is the real winner (last man standing) here - even Charlie now feels a piece of HIM has died also.
I sure hope the low ranking of the Helter Skelter motive in Matt's pole didn't break Bugliosi's heart to the extent HE realized the time is approaching when the TRUTH will be the LAST thing standing.
I'm not a Helter Skelter defender, but I can't help but have a big respect for Mr. B for putting the TLB creeps in jail. The criminal justice system, being totally adversarial at its roots left VB with a daunting task. He had the right perps, and while he may have played loose with the motive, had no choice but to string some kind of narrative, bizarre as it was and still is, out of the chaos, prosecutorial rules and limited time frame he had to work with and did the job to protect the public, which he without question did by putting away Charlie and company for good. The judicial system is far from perfect but in the case of the TLB murders, VB did his best with a highly flawed process to achieve the right result. A lot of us aren't happy Linda Kasabian walked, but the good outweighs the bad. I for one, felt much better when I was watching as a 9-year-old the 1970's TV movie Helter Skelter, and hearing about all this crap for the first time, that Prosecutor Bugliosi put those vicious murderers away for good.
Irony being what it is of course, CM outlives VB. Bugliosi departed this world having helped make it a little better. No one in their right mind will ever be ever be able to say this about his old courtroom nemesis.
Long time lurker here. Mad props and much respect for VB for putting away the perpetrators of some of the most bizarre and vicious murderers in the recorded annals of crime. Whatever anyone might have thought about his personal life or tactics he was a brilliant prosecutor. RIP.
Robert - 7 days!? So his claim that he would spend 500 hours working on his closing argument actually makes sense. Jeez. Robert that's something I would love to hear.
Re the George Bush - ISIS thing, are you suggesting that the establishment and the Family were on different paths to the same destination?
The fact that you don't understand the intense hate for BUG is astounding to me. He's one of the worst human beings I have ever encountered. If there is a hell he's in the admission room as we speak.
You met him? What was it about your encounter with him that left you so unimpressed? (assuming you are willing to answer under the circumstances). I assume it wasn't just his approach to the TLB case.
Some beloved nice guys are awful at their jobs. I'd prefer a tough single-minded bastard like VB for a Manson family prosecutor than a well-intentioned but inept buffoon. And I really could care less about his personal life or that he was a shameless self-promoter.
BUG was at the very least paranoid and delusional. He abused his office, stalked his milkman, beat his mistress over a pregnancy, and convicted multiple guilty killers based on a fantasy motivation. When smarter legal minds prevented him attaining public office he wrote a fictional account of the crimes with him as the greatest legal mind of a generation and made a bundle. Bad lawyer, bad human being.
Remember Mr. Pistols that Charlie will outlive all of us. He's the man who killed the sixties. He's the devil. He's the failed musician, the guru, the Most Dangerous Man Alive. He will live in Infamy thanks primarily to the lies of the BUG. Charlie is an immortal now, rather than what he really is, a short dumb punk. A century from now, when the Collected Wisdom of The Great Col Scott (5 Volumes) is not even available digitally anymore, when the Col's outed lover Matt is only noted on Find a Grave, when Max Frost has become a fairy tale parents USED to tell their kids to behave, Charles Manson will live on. Charlie is an idea and that can never be killed.
Amen to that Col. Charlie is an enigma, here it is almost 46 years after the murders, which have been solved, and we are still talking about them. Not just the occasional comment here and there but scads of websites devoted to one aspect or another of the crimes and the people involved. The kind of discussion that is usually reserved for the unsolved crimes like the Ripper or the Zodiac Killer and the assassination of presidents.
"BUG was at the very least paranoid and delusional. He abused his office, stalked his milkman, beat his mistress over a pregnancy, and convicted multiple guilty killers based on a fantasy motivation. When smarter legal minds prevented him attaining public office he wrote a fictional account of the crimes with him as the greatest legal mind of a generation and made a bundle. Bad lawyer, bad human being."
What's so remarkable about aiding and abetting the coverup of one of the greatest crimes of century by the CIA, fifty years later?
That effort alone does nothing but further suppress we the people.
This was a man who used his intelligence for the greater bad. An opportunist with no real vision or stand on anything. He looked like he might have cared when he wrote his version of Election 2000, but no...it was just another opportunity to capitalize.
To anyone who has not watched two masters of this craft work ... I recommend you watch to moot Oswald trial .... between Vincent Bugliosi Gerry Spence.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1oYHsicxdQg
I'm tried and don't have the energy to type everything I feel right now but I will take time out to say RIP Mr. Bugliosi.
And fuck you ColScott... you're always are dishing your filth towards someone here or somewhere .... I hope my far flung shit hits u right in your teeth.
He really milked the cow for all that it was worth. There's no way in hell he would have had a literary career if not for Charlie. Has any one person benefited more from the Tate/Labianca murders than Vincent Bugliosi?
I just saw the online excerpt from Schreck's book detailing how Bugliosi worked on HS at the Playboy Mansion at the invitation of Hugh Hefner!!! I doubt if his wife would have been happy about that.
Here's the quote:
"...At one point in Helter Skelter’s composition, Bugliosi’s friend Hugh Hefner let the lawyer hole up in a comfortable Bunny hutch at the Playboy Mansion West. As a guest of Hef’s hospitality, Bugliosi carried out his labors on the book."
The link:- http://www.nikolasschreck.guru/2015/06/bye-bye-bug-nikolas-schreck-says-a-fond-farewell-to-vincent-bugliosi/
Schreck tries to make a connection between Hefner's club being in Chicago (where clubs are a notorious Mafia stronghold) with the fact that Bugliosi accepted hospitality at another Hefner owned residence.
It's very interesting that some people believe that Manson "won" because he has lived longer. Do you really believe that living virtually an entire lifetime imprisoned is "winning"?
Here's a quote from Rolling Stone in 2013 from Charlie:-
"...A lot of people want me to die. Bugliosi wants me to die before him, otherwise I've won." And so their battle continues, at least in Manson's mind."
Not sure how Charlie knows that Bugliosi wanted anything.
It is desperately sad that CM has ostensibly lived in a cage all his life. However, it is also very sad that nine human beings were murdered through his complicity in those crimes when he was released from that cage. The authorities should have realised that he was an accident waiting to happen. This was a man with mental illness, no real experience of society at large, and no job training.
What the Col said was amazing. Bugliosi was largely responsible for the Manson legend. Watching that Bernice Berry interview, he faces off against very young Manson-worshippers in the early 90s or whenever that was filmed... really slamming into them for their beliefs, but in a way he's the one who built up that 'attractive' twisted-hippy-guru aura in the public's eye to begin with. Would that aura be even bigger if Charlie had been executed? I wonder what will happen when Charlie dies? Will the various factions of ATWA scuffle over ownership of his ashes, like what happened with George Lincoln Rockwell?
Kind of telling that in discussing the Bug's death we all just end up discussing Manson. RIP V.B.
(BTW if you go over to bobby beausoleil's site, take a look at his entry re his exhibition in Tasmania. Apparently, there were six of his paintings on display.
The Col points out that Manson is just a "dumb punk" BUT also something BETTER on a different level. In other words he is the "SHIT" sold as "Shinola"
So Let me share the TRUE story of American Society with you of open minds.
I once worked with on old grummy, but "common sense" man and one day HE shared the most revealing story with me.
On his block, he had the best lawn and garden of flowers one could imagine. Everthing was green and colorful to the extent that one day there was a knock on his door. The visitor explained that he was driving by and could'nt help but notice HIS house had the BEST growth he had ever seen. He wanted to now the secret to such incredible beauty. Don (my co-worker) said "I can't tell you the secret, but I can prepare for you a gallon of my private mixture of secret sauce, for ten dollars, that you can feed your plants."
The man was so excited, he couldn't wait to plunk down $10, but Don informed him that he would have to come back in about an hour for the secret sauce.
An hour later, the man came back and Don handed him a gallon of what looked like a brown guie liquid.
YES - Don simply sold the man "Shit for Shinola" right from his cease-pool ! AND that is the secret to a successful capitalist life.
Charlie Manson learned it, Vince Bugliosi learned it well, LBJ learned it, the Pope learned it, etc. etc.
I feel that The Family didn't do as well as HS more due to the author than the title. Outside the counter culture- not many people had heard of Sanders or The Fugs. But many knee Bugs. If they weren't following the trial then they might have heard of him anyway as he was prominently featured in an Oscar winning documentary by a young filmmaker who gave him quite a large audience to spread his story too
I haven't been here in quite some time, but like Beatle fans went to Strawberry Fields (Central Park, NY) when Lennon was killed, felt a need to be with and see reaction from my kin. My mom got me HS when I was in 6 or 7th grade from the local library and it did indeed scare the hell out of me (that warning page always impressed me.) For years I pictures Susan and Pat (I don't know why them more then the others) sneaking passed the tie dye banner that served as my bedroom door at the time, knives in hand. And an obsession was born. I've been lurking or taking part in the boards and blogs almost since the beginning and although along with a lot of you, I don't agree with the helter skelter motive, a part of me kind of died with Vince. There was always some hope he'd release something, just like we hope any of the other players in the game may do. Depending on your view, he was the good to the bad, or the bad to the good, but one needs the other. To quote a certain someone "Someone's got to be the bad guy." Hey, what the hell, may he rest in peace.
Andy! Good to see you, man. No, I don't think the motive will ever stop being debated, and no one will ever convince me that Helter Skelter was the reason all of those people were slaughtered. Never.
RIP MR BUGLIOSI. Thank you for taking some of our country's most feared killers Off the streets, for good! And thank you for Telling the story permanently for future generations to read. I believe by successfully Taking the murderers off the streets that you may have saved many lives!! RIP AND GOD BLESS YOU!
MAX is right so many of you people are just BORING
xreles- you talk about flinging poo like some inbred monkey and they have the nerve to swear at the great Col Scott? No wonder your own family mocks you behind your back (you know whereof I speak), I do have disdain for such brave internet posters who come on here with ignorance and arrogance. They are a waste of oxygen.
Cielodrive- you mocked quite well and made me laugh. Well played sir!
SusanB- Bug's job was to convict the killers TEX WATSON, SUSAN ATKINS, PATRICIA KRENWINKEL AND LESLIE VAN HOUTEN AS WELL AS LINDA KASABIAN with the evidence not make shit up to convict Charlie.
Andy- he can't release anything- then his life is revealed as the charade it is
Janell- the actual killers left fingerprints and shit- White Rabbit could have prosecuted them and he has no brain stem- He told a FALSE and provably bullshit version of the story. He saved a total of zero lives, they were already off the street before he even caught the case. Rot in Peace I assume you mean.
It's " ad hominem" dear Col . The Chinese use powdered dog dick as an aphrodisiac. It also helps with spelling ability, too, I've heard. Just a suggestion....a little in your Colace at night perhaps? 💋
Matt the duluth news story i sent to you about bug im glad you shared interesting guy rolling stone and life had a heavy hand in the manson myth,,,,,col scott you continually insult matt bug or whomever strikes your fancy as i said before matt,s blog growing and yours dry and barren
Pss saying col always brings to mind that pseudo beared chap who sold chicken but left out the part about all the bloody decapitated defenseless avians who thought they were being treated kindly,,,,
Hi Candy..The Col also reminds me of someone! Google Angry of Mayfair a character by the brilliant Kenny Everett. Angy is a self-righteous prig in a suit and bowler hat...but wait until he turns his back to the camera!
All else aside - Bug led an great life. He was a star athlete (ok, tennis counts), a great student and a great prosecutor. When opportunity knocked he didn't blow it. The trial of the century dropped in his lap and he put on the greatest show on Earth. He then parlayed that into the book that made millions and set he and his family up for generations. If only I were that stupid!
Col Scott there will be a funeral for you, it sounds like sooner rather than later ...my money says any tears shed are because they had to wait this long to see u dead. Drag it out for me though , I like thinking about it
Andy it's really. Nice to see you back bud you & Matt were my 1st friends on the blog & Andy You also gave me lot's of great leads on learning more about the case I was a novice. Back then I personally feel we just lost another piece of history with Vinces passing & I believe most of US 1st learned about the case through. Helter Skelter equinox hello my friend wishing you all the best
I'm an avid reader and have been since I was a child. Helter Skelter is by far the best true crime book that I've ever read...totally obsessed with this case, which proves that reality can be stranger than fiction! RIP, Mr. Bugliosi
Sorry to say this, but I think the boring reader in this blog is you Col. You brag and brag and usually, you have nothing to say. You have this pretension suggesting you know more than everyone else about this case, but you don't care a bit about explaining your point of view. That is boring.
I'll take Vincent Bugliosi over Marcia Clarke any day. And I'll take Vince over the feeble prosecutor who couldn't even convict Robert Blake. Matt is right - Bugliosi was a great prosecutor. He did his job. Legally, he didn't have to present ANY motive. And he didn't invent or lie about Helter Skelter. HS was practically handed to him on a silver platter. Bugliosi would have been derelict in his prosecutorial duties if he hadn't pursued the HS theory. And even he told the jury that HS was not the only motive.
"Helter Skelter is by far the best true crime book that I've ever read"
Same here. I have to say though, that while I'm not in agreement with various points made in it, "Goodbye Helter skelter" is also a brilliantly written counterweight and I think both books should sit side by side on any bookshelf that seeks to be worthy of the name !
"this case proves that reality can be stranger than fiction!"
Even when I was a kid, things happened in my life that taught me this !
CarolMR said... "Legally, he didn't have to present ANY motive."
This is true. That said, Charles Manson may not have been convicted without the intro of some motives. And he did say in his final summation that HS was a motive that belonged to Manson alone. Aside from this though, each of his co~defendants back in 1969, when separate from Manson and his influence, told various people not connected with the Family {psychiatrists, lawyers, cellmates....} that Charlie was behind the killings.
"And he didn't invent or lie about Helter Skelter"
He certainly did not. If it's a lie, blame the late Susan Atkins. She laid it on thickly with a trowel {witness what she told her attorney, Richard Caballero about why she wrote 'pig' on the Cielo door, for example} then during the trial and in her two subsequent books, said it wasn't ever the motive. If it was an invention, blame Leslie Van Houten, Danny DeCarlo, Susan Atkins, Brooks Poston, Paul Watkins, Paul Crockett, Al Springer, Pat Krenwinkle, Ronnie Howard and Virginia Graham, all of whom in cash or in kind had expostulated it before the end of 1969, some before VB was even on the case.
"HS was practically handed to him on a silver platter"
He would've had to have been a blind man to have missed it. It's like Horatio Caine used to say to his team in CSI Miami ¬> "follow the evidence." Reading police reports and police interviews from October to December '69, it is staggering the number of times Helter skelter came up. The interesting thing is that the police were rarely interested in pursuing it when it did come up.
"Bugliosi would have been derelict in his prosecutorial duties if he hadn't pursued the HS theory"
Couldn't agree more. Even if it eventually led up a blind alley, he was duty bound to look into it. Freeing Bobby Beausoleil {I've long found it intriguing that that means "Beautiful sun" !} as a motive never showed up until the trial was well under way and the defendants had already been found guilty. It was during the penalty bit where they try to determine whether the recently convicted get life or death that it first appeared. Charlie had alluded to it when he testified and interestingly, he doesn't complete the thought he begins that talks of Beausoleil {he calls him Robert} being arrested for something he didn't do. Which he knew Beausoleil had. So much for the man that never lies. And the "free Bobby" motive was originally brought into the public sphere by Catherine Share who cast it as a Linda Kasabian plan because Linda was supposedly in love with Bobby. Little wonder it wasn't taken seriously. Part of the "free Bobby" thing was Susan Atkins admitting she killed Gary Hinman.....If, as she said, Bobby was taken to jail for something he hadn't done, why not tell the police that, instead of what she did actually tell them ? Little wonder it wasn't taken seriously.
"And even he told the jury that HS was not the only motive"
He told them that. It's on the record. It's in his book. It's us with all the information to hand that forget it from time to time.
Oh come on Col...You can call me whatever you like. Sticks and stones...etc. In my line of work ( casualty nurse) I've been called a lot worse by hundreds of people who like to fry their brains every Friday and Saturday night .You name it, I've heard it. I can deal with being called a twat". Especially from someone like you.
I think we'd all get along better if we could just accept that Col Scott is entitled to talk down to or abuse anyone he chose to, because he carries the onerous burden of being right about everything and considerably cleverer than anyone else here.
"If it was an invention, blame Leslie Van Houten, Danny DeCarlo, Susan Atkins, Brooks Poston, Paul Watkins, Paul Crockett, Al Springer, Pat Krenwinkle, Ronnie Howard and Virginia Graham, all of whom in cash or in kind had expostulated it before the end of 1969, some before VB was even on the case. "
Was reading about this a few moments ago on nbc.com thought he out live Manson. RIP Bug
ReplyDeleteManson and Bugliosi were virtually the same age, just three months apart in age. I wonder if any more information about the murders and/or the Family will come out now. And what will Linda Kasabian say now that she doesn't have Bugliosi to handle her anymore?
ReplyDeleteI just read his son announced he passed away from cancer. DebS it will be interesting to see how it plays out with case/family info and Linda Kasabian. Perhaps a book from her in the future?
ReplyDeleteI read the book he wrote on JKF and was astounded at the detail, since it also included a CD with more material. I watched and listened to interviews featuring him and he said that writing the book took a lot out of him. He maintained that he did not use a computer to do it. While I did not always agree with the man, I welcomed his views and input.
ReplyDeleteI saw him on a doco series about the 60s recently, i cant remember what it was called, Tom Hanks produced it; anyway, i remember thinking he looked fairly unwell in that.. RIP
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteHi DebS,
It's difficult to say what will happen vis a vis Linda Kasabian and any future revelations from her. I would have thought that her contract was with the District Attorney's office, rather than Vincent Bugliosi personally. If she reveals the areas where he was tutoring her on answers, and perhaps advising to withhold pertinent information, she could put her immunity deal at risk, no?
Anyway, RIP Mr Bugliosi. As I always thought, his old adversary outlived him. I wonder what the reaction is in a certain cell in the PHU at Corcoran.
Not Waving - his JFK book is remarkable, I agree. There's been no great love for the man in the TLB blogosphere (I mean Bugliosi - not JFK!) and perhaps for very good reason, but I think there's always been a grudging respect at least. If nothing else, he is the man who created the Charles Manson that the world knows. Whether that creation stands the test of time we will see. My money would be on Bug's Manson outliving any other version, because as one commenter said here recently, it's the most enthralling Manson we have, and the human race needs that. If the truth about Charles Manson turns out to be routine and vanilla, then the world is a poorer, blander place.
ReplyDeleteRIP and thanks forever for producing one of the best books I ever read, and telling one of the scariest stories I have ever heard.
ReplyDeleteRest in peace, Mr. Bugliosi!! I never understood the intense hatred people had for this man. Hey, he deserved a pat on the back as far as I am concerned, for putting those creeps behind bars! Robert Durst probably wouldn't of even stood a chance of an acquittal against Mr. B!
ReplyDeleteI also admired his rage and moral disgust at the OJ Simpson defense team, in his book on the subject and in various debates. He was evidently genuinely appalled that a team of highly paid lawyers essentially invented a story (racist cops framing innocent OJ) that they clearly must have KNOWN was an outright lie, and fished around for any and every tiny procedural lapse, which they magnified out of all proportion to win an acquittal for a murderer. For their own fame and their careers they wanted to win at any cost, even if it meant inflaming racial tensions in the US and denying two murder victims justice. Every one of them knew he was guilty, and I wish that Bug had handled that case instead of the dreadful Marcia Clark. (Obviously, some here will find it highly ironic that Bugliosi was disgusted with trial lawyers inventing a story to achieve their desired verdict...)
ReplyDeleteAn icon is no more. Rip
ReplyDeleteI have long felt that in TLB blogosphere that Bugliosi has received a bad press in general and I've long felt it to be unfair. He did the job he had to do and while a lot of people may crush me in cyberspace for saying this, the odds, frankly, were stacked in Charlie and the Family's favour. At a number of points in the investigation, preparation for trial and trial itself, things could have gone drastically wrong for the prosecution. And for Bugliosi in particular. How in the world he persuaded the DA's office to let him run with Helter skelter in relation to Charlie {he didn't need it for Patty or Charles W because their prints condemned them and he didn't need it for Susan A because her big mouth, grand jury testimony and desire to act the tough acid girl in jail did for her} shows a tenacity that you either take your hat off to or are majorly irritated by.
ReplyDeleteThat said, simply because of the enduring fascination with the case, I think almost all the players in this saga, major or minor, have been cast in the TLB blogosphere {and in general, actually} in ways that are arguably unfair and that few of them would ever have chosen for themselves.
As a sidethought, it's almost ironic to wish for a man who wrote a book questioning the existence of God that he "rest in peace."
"The Gladiator and the Lion" the LAW vs the OUTLAW in the last great murder trial - that's how he will be remembered. My guess is that while MANSON is the real winner (last man standing) here - even Charlie now feels a piece of HIM has died also.
ReplyDeleteI sure hope the low ranking of the Helter Skelter motive in Matt's pole didn't break Bugliosi's heart to the extent HE realized the time is approaching when the TRUTH will be the LAST thing standing.
RIP in that great Courtroom in the sky Mr. B
Mr. H, I'll stop the pole some time on Thursday. All I can say is that the response has been astounding and the results will surprise some folks.
ReplyDeleteI'm not a Helter Skelter defender, but I can't help but have a big respect for Mr. B for putting the TLB creeps in jail. The criminal justice system, being totally adversarial at its roots left VB with a daunting task. He had the right perps, and while he may have played loose with the motive, had no choice but to string some kind of narrative, bizarre as it was and still is, out of the chaos, prosecutorial rules and limited time frame he had to work with and did the job to protect the public, which he without question did by putting away Charlie and company for good. The judicial system is far from perfect but in the case of the TLB murders, VB did his best with a highly flawed process to achieve the right result. A lot of us aren't happy Linda Kasabian walked, but the good outweighs the bad. I for one, felt much better when I was watching as a 9-year-old the 1970's TV movie Helter Skelter, and hearing about all this crap for the first time, that Prosecutor Bugliosi put those vicious murderers away for good.
ReplyDeleteIrony being what it is of course, CM outlives VB. Bugliosi departed this world having helped make it a little better. No one in their right mind will ever be ever be able to say this about his old courtroom nemesis.
OMG - I just discovered that Buglosi made a documentary film about the KILLER George Bush and ISIS
ReplyDeleteRemember "Islam is Rising" Sandy Good
"The Black Muslims would win the war" Paul Watkins on Helter Skelter
"Hello Again - Helter Skelter"
I have an audio recording of ALL 7 days of Bugliosoi's summation. Now I wonder IF he ever explained the REAL Helter Skelter to the JURY ?
Long time lurker here. Mad props and much respect for VB for putting away the perpetrators of some of the most bizarre and vicious murderers in the recorded annals of crime. Whatever anyone might have thought about his personal life or tactics he was a brilliant prosecutor. RIP.
ReplyDeleteRobert - 7 days!? So his claim that he would spend 500 hours working on his closing argument actually makes sense. Jeez. Robert that's something I would love to hear.
ReplyDeleteRe the George Bush - ISIS thing, are you suggesting that the establishment and the Family were on different paths to the same destination?
Ann
ReplyDeleteThe fact that you don't understand the intense hate for BUG is astounding to me. He's one of the worst human beings I have ever encountered. If there is a hell he's in the admission room as we speak.
ReplyDeleteCol Scott,
You met him? What was it about your encounter with him that left you so unimpressed? (assuming you are willing to answer under the circumstances). I assume it wasn't just his approach to the TLB case.
Some beloved nice guys are awful at their jobs. I'd prefer a tough single-minded bastard like VB for a Manson family prosecutor than a well-intentioned but inept buffoon. And I really could care less about his personal life or that he was a shameless self-promoter.
ReplyDeleteEquinox
ReplyDeleteBUG was at the very least paranoid and delusional. He abused his office, stalked his milkman, beat his mistress over a pregnancy, and convicted multiple guilty killers based on a fantasy motivation. When smarter legal minds prevented him attaining public office he wrote a fictional account of the crimes with him as the greatest legal mind of a generation and made a bundle. Bad lawyer, bad human being.
Even in death he runs second fiddle to Manson. On CNN's front page the headline says, "Man who prosecuted Manson dies"
ReplyDeleteLocked in eternal struggle at the heart of the sun, one cannot exist without the will of the other.
ReplyDeleteThank you for saying that, ColScott.
ReplyDeleteDeath is if nothing else banal, and therefore ennobles no one.
This ghoulishly reminds me of the death of John Adams. Relatives who were at his bedside reported that his last words were "Jefferson survives"
ReplyDeleteBut Jefferson died 5 hours later, Matt.
ReplyDeleteWill Charlie oblige his olde rival?
Remember Mr. Pistols that Charlie will outlive all of us. He's the man who killed the sixties. He's the devil. He's the failed musician, the guru, the Most Dangerous Man Alive. He will live in Infamy thanks primarily to the lies of the BUG. Charlie is an immortal now, rather than what he really is, a short dumb punk. A century from now, when the Collected Wisdom of The Great Col Scott (5 Volumes) is not even available digitally anymore, when the Col's outed lover Matt is only noted on Find a Grave, when Max Frost has become a fairy tale parents USED to tell their kids to behave, Charles Manson will live on. Charlie is an idea and that can never be killed.
ReplyDeleteAmen to that Col. Charlie is an enigma, here it is almost 46 years after the murders, which have been solved, and we are still talking about them. Not just the occasional comment here and there but scads of websites devoted to one aspect or another of the crimes and the people involved. The kind of discussion that is usually reserved for the unsolved crimes like the Ripper or the Zodiac Killer and the assassination of presidents.
ReplyDeleteReally well said
ReplyDelete"BUG was at the very least paranoid and delusional. He abused his office, stalked his milkman, beat his mistress over a pregnancy, and convicted multiple guilty killers based on a fantasy motivation. When smarter legal minds prevented him attaining public office he wrote a fictional account of the crimes with him as the greatest legal mind of a generation and made a bundle. Bad lawyer, bad human being."
ReplyDeleteYeah, but apart from that....
"His JFK book is remarkable."
ReplyDeleteWhat's so remarkable about aiding and abetting the coverup of one of the greatest crimes of century by the CIA, fifty years later?
That effort alone does nothing but further suppress we the people.
This was a man who used his intelligence for the greater bad. An opportunist with no real vision or stand on anything. He looked like he might have cared when he wrote his version of Election 2000, but no...it was just another opportunity to capitalize.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteTo
ReplyDeleteanyone who has not watched two masters of this craft work ... I recommend you watch to moot Oswald trial .... between
Vincent Bugliosi Gerry Spence.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1oYHsicxdQg
I'm tried and don't have the energy to type everything I feel right now but I will take time out to say RIP Mr. Bugliosi.
And fuck you ColScott... you're always are dishing your filth towards someone here or somewhere .... I hope my far flung shit hits u right in your teeth.
RIP Vincent. Job well done.
RIP, Mr. Bugliosi. I will never understand the hatred some people have for you.
ReplyDeleteHe really milked the cow for all that it was worth. There's no way in hell he would have had a literary career if not for Charlie. Has any one person benefited more from the Tate/Labianca murders than Vincent Bugliosi?
ReplyDeleteNo hate here. Just my opinion.
Playing some latin love songs just for you, Vince
ReplyDeleteRIP Vincent Bugliosi, I'm glad you don't have to go through your medical treatments anymore.
ReplyDeleteMax Frost - have you ever read Bugliosi's Kennedy assasination book?
ReplyDeleteThe wonderful irony cant help but make a man smile
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteI just saw the online excerpt from Schreck's book detailing how Bugliosi worked on HS at the Playboy Mansion at the invitation of Hugh Hefner!!! I doubt if his wife would have been happy about that.
Here's the quote:
"...At one point in Helter Skelter’s composition, Bugliosi’s friend Hugh Hefner let the lawyer hole up in a comfortable Bunny hutch at the Playboy Mansion West. As a guest of Hef’s hospitality, Bugliosi carried out his labors on the book."
The link:- http://www.nikolasschreck.guru/2015/06/bye-bye-bug-nikolas-schreck-says-a-fond-farewell-to-vincent-bugliosi/
Schreck tries to make a connection between Hefner's club being in Chicago (where clubs are a notorious Mafia stronghold) with the fact that Bugliosi accepted hospitality at another Hefner owned residence.
It's very interesting that some people believe that Manson "won" because he has lived longer. Do you really believe that living virtually an entire lifetime imprisoned is "winning"?
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteJenn,
Here's a quote from Rolling Stone in 2013 from Charlie:-
"...A lot of people want me to die. Bugliosi wants me to die before him, otherwise I've won." And so their battle continues, at least in Manson's mind."
Not sure how Charlie knows that Bugliosi wanted anything.
It is desperately sad that CM has ostensibly lived in a cage all his life. However, it is also very sad that nine human beings were murdered through his complicity in those crimes when he was released from that cage. The authorities should have realised that he was an accident waiting to happen. This was a man with mental illness, no real experience of society at large, and no job training.
RIP Mr Bugliosi . I dont care what you did outside of the courtroom. While in it you did your job. 'Nuff said.
ReplyDeleteWhat the Col said was amazing. Bugliosi was largely responsible for the Manson legend. Watching that Bernice Berry interview, he faces off against very young Manson-worshippers in the early 90s or whenever that was filmed... really slamming into them for their beliefs, but in a way he's the one who built up that 'attractive' twisted-hippy-guru aura in the public's eye to begin with. Would that aura be even bigger if Charlie had been executed? I wonder what will happen when Charlie dies? Will the various factions of ATWA scuffle over ownership of his ashes, like what happened with George Lincoln Rockwell?
ReplyDeleteKind of telling that in discussing the Bug's death we all just end up discussing Manson. RIP V.B.
ReplyDeleteAgree with you, Vermouth.
(BTW if you go over to bobby beausoleil's site, take a look at his entry re his exhibition in Tasmania. Apparently, there were six of his paintings on display.
"The Shit for Shinola" Syndrome !
ReplyDeleteThe Col points out that Manson is just a "dumb punk" BUT also something BETTER on a different level. In other words he is the "SHIT" sold as "Shinola"
So Let me share the TRUE story of American Society with you of open minds.
I once worked with on old grummy, but "common sense" man and one day HE shared the most revealing story with me.
On his block, he had the best lawn and garden of flowers one could imagine. Everthing was green and colorful to the extent that one day there was a knock on his door. The visitor explained that he was driving by and could'nt help but notice HIS house had the BEST growth he had ever seen. He wanted to now the secret to such incredible beauty. Don (my co-worker) said "I can't tell you the secret, but I can prepare for you a gallon of my private mixture of secret sauce, for ten dollars, that you can feed your plants."
The man was so excited, he couldn't wait to plunk down $10, but Don informed him that he would have to come back in about an hour for the secret sauce.
An hour later, the man came back and Don handed him a gallon of what looked like a brown guie liquid.
YES - Don simply sold the man "Shit for Shinola" right from his cease-pool ! AND that is the secret to a successful capitalist life.
Charlie Manson learned it, Vince Bugliosi learned it well, LBJ learned it, the Pope learned it, etc. etc.
Question is: have YOU learned it yet ?
I feel that The Family didn't do as well as HS more due to the author than the title. Outside the counter culture- not many people had heard of Sanders or The Fugs. But many knee Bugs. If they weren't following the trial then they might have heard of him anyway as he was prominently featured in an Oscar winning documentary by a young filmmaker who gave him quite a large audience to spread his story too
ReplyDelete:)
St Circ,
ReplyDelete"... featured in an Oscar winning documentary by a young filmmaker"
Oscar nominated, not Oscar winning.
Yeah pardon typos. I'm using phone while traveling sorry lol. You got my point though lol
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteSt Circumstance,
No matter what -you're my favourite Saint!!! Best wishes on your travels. For once here in Scotland, there's some sunshine here. Long may it last!!!
See ya Saint!!
:)
ReplyDeleteI haven't been here in quite some time, but like Beatle fans went to Strawberry Fields (Central Park, NY) when Lennon was killed, felt a need to be with and see reaction from my kin.
ReplyDeleteMy mom got me HS when I was in 6 or 7th grade from the local library and it did indeed scare the hell out of me (that warning page always impressed me.) For years I pictures Susan and Pat (I don't know why them more then the others) sneaking passed the tie dye banner that served as my bedroom door at the time, knives in hand. And an obsession was born.
I've been lurking or taking part in the boards and blogs almost since the beginning and although along with a lot of you, I don't agree with the helter skelter motive, a part of me kind of died with Vince. There was always some hope he'd release something, just like we hope any of the other players in the game may do. Depending on your view, he was the good to the bad, or the bad to the good, but one needs the other. To quote a certain someone "Someone's got to be the bad guy."
Hey, what the hell, may he rest in peace.
If you have been here as long as you say, it would have been nice to have heard from you.
ReplyDeleteAndy! Good to see you, man. No, I don't think the motive will ever stop being debated, and no one will ever convince me that Helter Skelter was the reason all of those people were slaughtered. Never.
ReplyDeleteOK Matt. Megapost!
ReplyDeleteRIP MR BUGLIOSI. Thank you for taking some of our country's most feared killers
ReplyDeleteOff the streets, for good! And thank you for
Telling the story permanently for future generations to read. I believe by successfully
Taking the murderers off the streets that you may have saved many lives!! RIP AND GOD BLESS YOU!
MAX is right so many of you people are just BORING
ReplyDeletexreles- you talk about flinging poo like some inbred monkey and they have the nerve to swear at the great Col Scott? No wonder your own family mocks you behind your back (you know whereof I speak), I do have disdain for such brave internet posters who come on here with ignorance and arrogance. They are a waste of oxygen.
Cielodrive- you mocked quite well and made me laugh. Well played sir!
SusanB- Bug's job was to convict the killers TEX WATSON, SUSAN ATKINS, PATRICIA KRENWINKEL AND LESLIE VAN HOUTEN AS WELL AS LINDA KASABIAN with the evidence not make shit up to convict Charlie.
Andy- he can't release anything- then his life is revealed as the charade it is
Janell- the actual killers left fingerprints and shit- White Rabbit could have prosecuted them and he has no brain stem- He told a FALSE and provably bullshit version of the story. He saved a total of zero lives, they were already off the street before he even caught the case. Rot in Peace I assume you mean.
Hey Col....Cant get it up again, huh?
Delete
ReplyDelete"...when the Col's outed lover Matt is only noted on Find a Grave"
Yes, I knew this was going to happen in a week when we have been introduced to Caitlyn:)
The Col and Matt - it was obvious all along!!!
Don't bring Caitlyn into it!
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteMatt,
Come on, everybody on this blog knows you and the Col were visiting the same medics as Caitlyn. Walking about in high heels was the big give away!!
SusanB- ad hominum attacks reflect badly on you and your position.
ReplyDeleteIt's " ad hominem" dear Col .
DeleteThe Chinese use powdered dog dick as an aphrodisiac. It also helps with spelling ability, too, I've heard. Just a suggestion....a little in your Colace at night perhaps? 💋
Is it true Vince was buried with "CHARLIE DON'T SURF" T-shirt on?
ReplyDeleteMatt the duluth news story i sent to you about bug im glad you shared interesting guy rolling stone and life had a heavy hand in the manson myth,,,,,col scott you continually insult matt bug or whomever strikes your fancy as i said before matt,s blog growing and yours dry and barren
ReplyDeletePost script all gayness in jest id presume matt has better taste then col
ReplyDeletePss saying col always brings to mind that pseudo beared chap who sold chicken but left out the part about all the bloody decapitated defenseless avians who thought they were being treated kindly,,,,
ReplyDeleteSimilarities,
ReplyDeleteHi Candy..The Col also reminds me of someone! Google Angry of Mayfair a character by the brilliant Kenny Everett. Angy is a self-righteous prig in a suit and bowler hat...but wait until he turns his back to the camera!
DeleteR.I.P.
ReplyDeleteAnother great Bugliosi book....."And The Sea Will Tell".
He is the defense attorney in this incredible true crime story.
All else aside - Bug led an great life. He was a star athlete (ok, tennis counts), a great student and a great prosecutor. When opportunity knocked he didn't blow it. The trial of the century dropped in his lap and he put on the greatest show on Earth. He then parlayed that into the book that made millions and set he and his family up for generations. If only I were that stupid!
ReplyDeleteRIP, Bug. RIP.
Again- well said!
ReplyDeleteCol Scott there will be a funeral for you, it sounds like sooner rather than later ...my money says any tears shed are because they had to wait this long to see u dead.
ReplyDeleteDrag it out for me though , I like thinking about it
Andy it's really. Nice to see you back bud you & Matt were my 1st friends on the blog & Andy You also gave me lot's of great leads on learning more about the case I was a novice. Back then I personally feel we just lost another piece of history with Vinces passing & I believe most of US 1st learned about the case through. Helter Skelter equinox hello my friend wishing you all the best
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteXrel thats not nice alot of people are dead and they dont know it yet
ReplyDeleteLol candy - the tell-tale of a miserable bum is it's incessant whimpering and whining.
ReplyDeleteSad but true for the rest of us to have to deal with them.
I'm an avid reader and have been since I was a child. Helter Skelter is by far the best true crime book that I've ever read...totally obsessed with this case, which proves that reality can be stranger than fiction! RIP, Mr. Bugliosi
ReplyDeleteXre lmao
ReplyDeleteSorry to say this, but I think the boring reader in this blog is you Col.
ReplyDeleteYou brag and brag and usually, you have nothing to say.
You have this pretension suggesting you know more than everyone else about this case, but you don't care a bit about explaining your point of view.
That is boring.
I'll take Vincent Bugliosi over Marcia Clarke any day. And I'll take Vince over the feeble prosecutor who couldn't even convict Robert Blake. Matt is right - Bugliosi was a great prosecutor. He did his job. Legally, he didn't have to present ANY motive. And he didn't invent or lie about Helter Skelter. HS was practically handed to him on a silver platter. Bugliosi would have been derelict in his prosecutorial duties if he hadn't pursued the HS theory. And even he told the jury that HS was not the only motive.
ReplyDeleteTotally agree Carol. Great point!
ReplyDeletePetey spitstop said...
ReplyDelete"Helter Skelter is by far the best true crime book that I've ever read"
Same here. I have to say though, that while I'm not in agreement with various points made in it, "Goodbye Helter skelter" is also a
brilliantly written counterweight and I think both books should sit side by side on any bookshelf that seeks to be worthy of the name !
"this case proves that reality can be stranger than fiction!"
Even when I was a kid, things happened in my life that taught me this !
CarolMR said...
"Legally, he didn't have to present ANY motive."
This is true. That said, Charles Manson may not have been convicted without the intro of some motives. And he did say in his final summation that HS was a motive that belonged to Manson alone. Aside from this though, each of his co~defendants back in 1969, when separate from Manson and his influence, told various people not connected with the Family {psychiatrists, lawyers, cellmates....} that Charlie was behind the killings.
"And he didn't invent or lie about Helter Skelter"
He certainly did not. If it's a lie, blame the late Susan Atkins. She laid it on thickly with a trowel {witness what she told her attorney, Richard Caballero about why she wrote 'pig' on the Cielo door, for example} then during the trial and in her two subsequent books, said it wasn't ever the motive.
If it was an invention, blame Leslie Van Houten, Danny DeCarlo, Susan Atkins, Brooks Poston, Paul Watkins, Paul Crockett, Al Springer, Pat Krenwinkle, Ronnie Howard and Virginia Graham, all of whom in cash or in kind had expostulated it before the end of 1969, some before VB was even on the case.
"HS was practically handed to him on a silver platter"
He would've had to have been a blind man to have missed it. It's like Horatio Caine used to say to his team in CSI Miami ¬> "follow the evidence."
Reading police reports and police interviews from October to December '69, it is staggering the number of times Helter skelter came up. The interesting thing is that the police were rarely interested in pursuing it when it did come up.
"Bugliosi would have been derelict in his prosecutorial duties if he hadn't pursued the HS theory"
Couldn't agree more. Even if it eventually led up a blind alley, he was duty bound to look into it. Freeing Bobby Beausoleil {I've long found it intriguing that that means "Beautiful sun" !} as a motive never showed up until the trial was well under way and the defendants had already been found guilty. It was during the penalty bit where they try to determine whether the recently convicted get life or death that it first appeared. Charlie had alluded to it when he testified and interestingly, he doesn't complete the thought he begins that talks of Beausoleil {he calls him Robert} being arrested for something he didn't do. Which he knew Beausoleil had.
So much for the man that never lies.
And the "free Bobby" motive was originally brought into the public sphere by Catherine Share who cast it as a Linda Kasabian plan because Linda was supposedly in love with Bobby. Little wonder it wasn't taken seriously.
Part of the "free Bobby" thing was Susan Atkins admitting she killed Gary Hinman.....If, as she said, Bobby was taken to jail for something he hadn't done, why not tell the police that, instead of what she did actually tell them ?
Little wonder it wasn't taken seriously.
"And even he told the jury that HS was not the only motive"
He told them that. It's on the record. It's in his book. It's us with all the information to hand that forget it from time to time.
Xre lmao
ReplyDelete
ReplyDelete@William Marshall,
Hello William, nice to see you on the blog! I hope you are keeping well at the moment.
Did not realize/remember that SusanB was a twat, and add to that makes typo comments ,
ReplyDeletethanks for the news
I never thought i'd see ColScott on someone else's blog. I guess since no one goes to his anymore he has to come here
ReplyDeleteR.I.P without him Manson most likely would have walked.
ReplyDelete"Typo gestapo" would be a cool name for a gang,,,,,,,cut of jean jackets with insignia of a typewtiter with lightening bolts
ReplyDeleteI even made a typo just to prove club loyalty
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteOh come on Col...You can call me whatever you like. Sticks and stones...etc. In my line of work ( casualty nurse) I've been called a lot worse by hundreds of people who like to fry their brains every Friday and Saturday night .You name it, I've heard it. I can deal with being called a twat". Especially from someone like you.
ReplyDeleteI think we'd all get along better if we could just accept that Col Scott is entitled to talk down to or abuse anyone he chose to, because he carries the onerous burden of being right about everything and considerably cleverer than anyone else here.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry the old bird died. I don't like what he did to Leslie, or even Susan either. But I'll hold my piece.
ReplyDelete"If it was an invention, blame Leslie Van Houten, Danny DeCarlo, Susan Atkins, Brooks Poston, Paul Watkins, Paul Crockett, Al Springer, Pat Krenwinkle, Ronnie Howard and Virginia Graham, all of whom in
ReplyDeletecash or in kind had expostulated it before the end of 1969, some before VB was even on the case. "
Thanks for a great post Grimtraveller.
This was destined to happen, a woman is claiming to have had a child by Bugliosi during a 23 year affair with him.
ReplyDeletehttp://pagesix.com/2015/06/17/charles-manson-prosecutor-had-secret-love-child/