In George Stimson's recent book Goodbye Helter Skelter, Stimson includes a chapter entitled "Manson and the Law". This rebuttal has been supplied by a reader. While the reader disagrees with most of what George says, and believes that his logic and reasoning is flawed, he does credit him for taking a stance and attempting to support his position in a non-confrontational manner.
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George Stimson makes several erroneous conclusions. First , and foremost, he takes Charles Manson's word as gospel, that only Manson was capable of telling the truth. What he ignores, is the nature of Manson's various comments, testimony, and storytelling which often conflict with other self-made comments, testimony, and storytelling. Stimson ignores that Manson will often avoid answering direct questions, give ridiculous answers, or simply obfuscates the truth does little to establish Manson's credibility.
Stimson avoids Helter Skelter as even a possible motive that may have been believed by some of the Family. Instead, he relies on stories of possible drug-dealing by others, though no credible evidence has ever been presented. Yet, he wants to ready to accept his version as fact, without allowing for the possibility of anything else. Simply saying that HS was not the motive does not make it viable.
Stimson ignores the jury's decision by making comments such as Manson could very conceivably be found not guilty” ignoring that he could have, and was conceivably found guilty. He states that since there was no testimony that stated Manson gave orders to kill the LaBianca's, Manson could not be guilty. That HS was not a motive, that Manson merely entered a home in which two murders were subsequently committed, and as such, guilt does not apply to Manson. Specious claims such as not knowing the home was occupied, or that a door might not of been locked does not absolve someone of responsibility of guilt, even through a felony murder application. Stimson is good at looking at a penal code, and attempting to apply it, but he fails when he focuses only on a specific code, and that the subsequent or supporting penal codes that apply. Nor does he acknowledge volumes of case law which support the states' lawful, and accurate prosecution for these crimes. It is like arguing with a child in which the child hopes that if it keeps giving the same answer, eventually you will give up, and the child will think that they are correct.
In re the argument against conspiracy, we only have Manson's word that he said he would not get involved. There are no corroborative statements given by others.
To state that he was denied a fair and speedy trial is foolish. The hearing dates fell within the prescribed timeline. Because a trial did not start tomorrow, or Monday does not amount to a delay of justice. Filing other charges to hold a defendant is not illegal, no unethical. Manson made various nonsensical claims to the court that brought his ability to defend himself into question. Manson used jailhouse knowledge and tactics to delay his trial, and he was called on those tactics. The fact that he did not like the outcome does not equate to a denial of constitutional rights.
The claims regarding the jury instructions ignore the fact that instructions are submitted to the presiding judge, and both attorneys then agree on the language within each instruction. What Stimson fails to recognize is that the jurors believed that the elements of the crime fit the instructions, and rightfully applied the facts to the law, and came to its conclusion. Stimson simply cannot understand how this could be because it does not fly with his narrative.
Probably the biggest error Stimson makes is his analysis of Bittaker v Enomoto. While he cites Faretta v California, it is obvious he does not understand the entirety of case law or its application. Every case cited is always dependent upon other case law no single case lives in a vacuum. As such, there are nuances, or specifics of other cases that can limit, or minimize the effective of a case. Had Stimson researched more, and had been honest with himself he would not have relied on Bittaker.
What is interesting is if Stimson had researched another California case, Davis v Morris, he would have seen why reliance on the Bittaker decision was not wise. In Davis, which by the way was the very Bruce Davis, the appellant attempted the same claim of constitutional violation by denying the right to pro se representation. In that case, the court held:
.2d 1056 in Petitioner contends that he was unconstitutionally denied the right of self-representation guaranteed him by the United States Constitution and expressly held absolute in Faretta v. California, 422 U.S. 806, 95 S. Ct. 2525, 45 L. Ed. 2d 562 (1975).The trial judge was right. Petitioner's constitutional rights have not been violated by the intervention of Faretta.
Petitioner was tried in 1972 and so the Court must find Faretta (supra) retroactive before petitioner can receive the benefits of that Supreme Court opinion. The California Supreme Court in People v. McDaniel, 16 Cal.3d 156, 545 P.2d 843, 127 Cal.Rptr. 467 (1976) eschewed the retroactivity of Faretta. This Court finds no reason to disagree with the searching analysis made by Chief Justice Wright writing for a unanimous court in McDaniel.
Petitioner argues that although Faretta may not be held to be retroactive that he is entitled to relief nonetheless because the Ninth Circuit had determined that the right of self-representation was a constitutional right. He relies on Bittaker v. Enomoto, 587 F.2d 400 (9th Cir. 1978) and Walker v. Loggins, 608 F.2d 731 (9th Cir. 1979) to support his contentions. In this regard he reads too much into those decisions. Relying on Arnold v. United States, 414 F.2d 1056 (9th Cir. 1969) and Bayless v. United States, 381 F.2d 67 (9th Cir. 1967) the Court in Bittaker and Loggins (supra) held that a state defendant had a constitutional right to self-representation before the Supreme Court's decision in Faretta. In its reliance on Arnold and Bayless (supra) the Ninth Circuit in Bittaker and Loggins does not clearly define this right as "absolute" and as such California courts were free to make determinations of competing rights of fair trial not addressed to "convenience or efficiency of the trial." Bittaker (supra) at p. 403, but rather to a fundamental concern that defendants undertaking to represent themselves appreciate the seriousness of the charges and present a meaningful defense in cases involving liberty and possibly even death. This case presents the question classically for the trial judge found only superficial understanding of substantial procedures that would seriously compromise petitioner's defense in a capital case. Fair trial rights can have no less importance in the administration of justice than can the right of self-representation now raised to constitutional dimensions of absolutism in Faretta. *fn1"
The petition is denied.
While Stimson can be recognized as an ardent friend of Manson, his ability to make accurate legal conclusions or analysis is far less. His arguments, while entertaining, would not even get him a passing score on an LSAT.
219 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 219 of 219Listening to LVH interview with Marvin Part on Cielo should be a prerequisite for voting in this poll. Jeez!
Kevin, Matt - I think it might take several hundred pages of debate before we could settle on the list of options to be included in the motives poll.
I change my mind everyday. I used to think I knew what I thought before I started reading this site. Now all I know is that I think I don't know what I thought I knew.
Information. It fucks everything up.
I would love to see that poll too.
Mark me down as HS believer... there are interviews from what has to be a majority of the key, core, "family" members to back up MHO.
Awhile back I was listening to, among others, the Brooks Poston and Paul Watkins interview on CieloDrive.com [a wonderful site indeed]. I came away with the same convictions that the most recent LVH interview just gave me. And that is, there were a wide range of insiders, family insiders mind you, that tell of the HS harbinger.
And by wide range - which I think gives their accounts even greater weight because I think it shows the absences of any collaborated concoction of a story - I mean wide range because some of those telling of HS were actually involved in the murders some were trying or wanting to be involved in them, some were out of family and some wanted out.
These folks were not all in the same "thought"... as CM would say, nor were they on the same path in life any more, but when asked they sure said the same thing about HS and CM.
I need to compile the names of the family members whom have spoken out on HS. [or one of yousguys...lol that has been doing this stuff for years beyond me could post theirs for me..:)]
Did you catch that... yousguys . I made a funny because I'm southern and I said yousguys!
Oh and btw To: St Circumstance SilverBullets are my weapon of choice as well...cheers.
If it wasn't for Vera this conversation would never have happened, and I'd never have heard of Bertrice Berry. Don't usually go in for stuff written by former talk show hosts (I'm a snob) but she wrote a book 'The Ties That Bind' which looks pretty interesting.
And yeah humprat, two different videos. Stoner Van Dude should be on talkshows though.
I've been a little lax this weekend about reading the blog comments. Damn, this post really garnered a lot of comments, more than we have ever had for a single post, I would guess. Everybody has just about covered anything I would have to contribute, well done. There is one thing I would like to relate regarding Vera's accusation implying that George is a raging racist.
While on tour, one evening Matt, George, Saint and myself found ourselves cruising up and down some main street looking for a place to eat dinner. After going blocks and blocks Matt said "pull in here, it's a deli and there's a parking place." I pulled in and parked right in front. A huge plus for the area! We all trooped in and sat down, looked at the menu and it wasn't until the waitress came to take our order and Matt asked for cheese on his sandwich that I learned, because the waitress told Matt no cheese, we were in a KOSHER deli.
I have no idea if George knew we were in a kosher deli when we walked in, actually all the men wearing yarmulke's should have clued me in but didn't. George did not spontaneously combust, at any rate, nor did he utter a word about us having chosen that place to eat either during or after our meal. None of discussed it at all.
So, if George is the raging racist that Vera would like to believe he is, then he's a piss-poor racist. The pastrami was excellent, BTW.
I hate to chime in with my two cents again (well, not really) but that doesn't surprise me. While growing up my stepfather loathed aboriginals to the point he would change the channel if one came on TV, but one of his best customers and pals (we socialised together frequently as families) came from an aboriginal background. In his eyes this guy wasn't an aborigine because "he didn't rob people, break into cars, spit on white people, do all the stuff 'abos' do."
It also reminds me of a news 'exclusive' I saw exposing which neighbourhood David Duke had just moved to (kinda like the one they did on Squeaky.. yech). They interviewed a black couple who lived in the area and they were incredibly surprised to hear he was who he was, because when their car broke down he gave them a hand getting it fixed (though maybe he just wanted them gone from his street). Race is a fucking complex issue and I've found most racists make exceptions on a daily basis, and often find ways to justify them to themselves & others- which shows that their hatred is often based on deeper things than simply "this guy has black skin therefore fuck HIM yo."
"Kevin, Matt - I think it might take several hundred pages of debate before we could settle on the list of options to be included in the motives poll.
I change my mind everyday. I used to think I knew what I thought before I started reading this site. Now all I know is that I think I don't know what I thought I knew."
I understand Michael, I have changed my mind so many times and probably will again. I realize it would not be easy to decide on a list of motives - especially as so many people think that there was more than one motive so you would essentially have to cover all combinations. It could get too complex - perhaps just have the poll on primary motive.
Matt - before the poll is run, you could do a series of articles on each motive, to layout the case for each.
Each article would have to be written by someone who firmly believes in that particular motive - so they really get behind it.
Michael,
I think you've nailed the motive. There's nothing Manson related left to talk about. Time to move on to which author's father was the real Zodiac killer.
I would like to hear more from Sandy regarding: "Islam is rising" 1970
Obviously, Islam is NOT rising, BUT taking over the entire Middle East under the NEW "Islamic State banner."
Because Islam and "Muslim" go together like birds and a feather AND Black Muslim (referred to by Paul Watkins regarding his interpretation of Helter Skelter) are actually one and the same as Bugliosi's "BLACK" people in HIS "motive," I would truly appreciate any further clarification Sandy may wish to provide.
To me it is becoming more and more apparent - especially because the US President and the entire US government had NO clue that ISLAM would be on the rise, IF we abandoned our occupation in the Middle - East that little old Sandy Good has more intelligent intuition than possibly the entire Western World.
THUS, what the fuck are we giving our hard-earned tax dollars to a bunch of "glorified" welfare workers for ?
Why NOT just give Sandy a few millions to tell us how this whole thing is going to end - so we ALL can make an intelligent decision regarding the future of this once great nation.
Enough of this sending Blacks, Browns and poor Whites to die for some nimrod's demented political TRIP.
Cindy Lee said...
A person hates & attacks others for 1 of 3 reasons. 1) They want to be them 2) They hate themselves. 3) They see the other person as a threat.
Agree. These are the main problems i find when researching stuff. There always seems to be something in the way, like people are maybe clouded by their own baggage
Robert, that 'JV team' sure are doing well over there. I wonder what is the total financial cost of all the training and materiel that the US has bestowed upon the Iraqi 'forces', only to have them run away and leave most of it in IS hands.
The mystery for me is whether this civilisational suicide is conspiracy or incompetence.
In the UK it's a combination of "post-colonial guilt" and economic helpessness. Post-WWII we saddled ourselves with a hugely expensive welfare state, and at the same time we stopped having children who would grow up, get jobs, and pay taxes to fund it. So to keep the whole welfare show rolling we've imported a population from elsewhere. What no-one here is willing to say out loud is that we cannot have a welfare state and a nationalized (socialized) health service without transformative mass immigration. (And that phrase is not an exaggeration - I live in East London, I'm right in the middle of it. I've watched it accelerating at an unbelievable rate in my lifetime. East London now is literally unrecognizable as being the same place I knew as a teenager - and I'm not an old man!)
'Blacks, Browns and poor Whites' - do you imply that Blacks and Browns are inevitably poor, so the adjective is only required for Whites? Also, in the US 93.6% of enlisted soldiers have at least a high school diploma, compared to only 59.5% of the general population. Careful you don't end up sounding like the love-child of John Kerry and Michael Moore ;)
"In the UK it's a combination of "post-colonial guilt" and economic helpessness. Post-WWII we saddled ourselves with a hugely expensive welfare state, and at the same time we stopped having children who would grow up, get jobs, and pay taxes to fund it. So to keep the whole welfare show rolling we've imported a population from elsewhere. What no-one here is willing to say out loud is that we cannot have a welfare state and a nationalized (socialized) health service without transformative mass immigration. (And that phrase is not an exaggeration - I live in East London, I'm right in the middle of it. I've watched it accelerating at an unbelievable rate in my lifetime. East London now is literally unrecognizable as being the same place I knew as a teenager - and I'm not an old man!)"
Michael, my understanding is the situation is very similar in much of Western Europe, which you probably know. Australia has largely avoided it but things are getting a little similar as an ageing population of baby boomers and lower fertility rates amongst young (white) Australians has made raising immigration quotas necessary. Government census data shows this country is still nominally 90% white or European (or was in 2011 when the census was still taken). That is changing as higher and higher proportions of immigrants are coming from China India rather than European nations, the US or South Africa. We also have a welfare state to support but my understanding is it is not as overwhelmingly overextended as the UK NHS.
White or white settler countries are going to have to work out for themselves how this is all going to work- the situation in the UK imo is dire and should be avoided; multiethnic immigration is probably unavoidable and has desirable consequences, but it should never be in service of unachievable goals- or come at the expense of the 'native' population who in the UK & nations like France & Germany tend to feel boxed out, excluded, or as if their own culture and traditions are somehow undervalued in relation to those of new citizens. Our countries are going to have to work out a stable relationship between appeasing the guilt we feel over past sins, managing the systems we have in place and the expectations of our societies, and ensuring that national identity & a sense of community aren't undervalued in service of imposing artificial values on people of all races & creeds.
The rise of Sunni & Wahabbi extremism (i.e. ISIS, Al-Qaeda) & their appeal to alienated Muslim youth in Western countries is something Robert brings up & is very troubling; it's one of the outcomes of multiculturalism (juggling a much wider & more complex array of community demands & potential problems) which I am sure its pioneers post-WWII didn't anticipate. We're going to HAVE to learn how to juggle those problems, face up to them openly and responsibly, and contemplate whether continuing to throw bombs/soldiers at the Middle East or $$$ at 'moderate mosques' is the answer. Sorry if this sounds like a university essay but I am trying to express myself as intellectually & sensitively as I can, it's a very delicate topic of discussion but one which I have a great deal of interest in.
Honest mistake...rock on with yo bad self xoxo
Honest mistake...rock on with yo bad self xoxo
Honest mistake...rock on with yo bad self xoxo
Vermouth Brilliantine said...
"or come at the expense of the 'native' population who in the UK & nations like France & Germany tend to feel boxed out, excluded, or as if their own culture and traditions are somehow undervalued in relation to those of new citizens"
I find that most people I hear that speak about culture {regardless of their race or culture or nationality} speak of it as a fixed, unalterable and easy to define and describe 'thing.'
Well, it isn't. Over a period of time, it's pretty fluid.
If you look at the UK, the presence of the different {upper, middle and working} classes of the indigenous population meant that there was never such a 'thing' as British culture. Or English culture. Then on top of that, the different immigrants that have settled here over the last, even 60 years have brought aspects of their cultures and different parts have bled into what was already shifting here.
Vermouth Brilliantine said...
"Our countries are going to have to work out a stable relationship between appeasing the guilt we feel over past sins"
Trouble is, the guilt that is felt is felt because those 'past sins' are real and encompassed real actions with real results, made certain countries very rich while destabilising others and those chickens have now come home to roost.
Kind of like, I believe, the way Charlie Manson's Mum's past actions came home to roost. Then Charlie's actions with the Family came home to roost. Some of the actions of some of the Family members parents came home to roost. The American governments various negative actions abroad have come home to roost. The sexualization of children is currently coming home to roost.
Pretty much everything at some point comes home to roost. And that coming home is rarely pretty.
equinox said:
Hi Krissy,
Yes, I agree with you that the statement "shouldn't have been home that night" demands further explanation...In order for Sandy or any of the Family to know the details of Sharon's proposed whereabouts, there would have to have been contact between people at Cielo and Spahn
More or less from the start, way back in August '69, it has been known that Sharon was meant to be staying over at the house of Sheilah Wells that night. Not long after, it became public knowledge. I think that's what Family and ex-Family members have been referring to when they say Sharon wasn't meant to be home that night. It's almost as though they were trying to cast the murder of a pregnant woman as "collateral damage" in their {Sandy's} "war." Trying to take the sting out of it.
In truth, however, I don't think any of the victims were specifically targetted. There's been a roaring trade over half a century, in reasons for every one of the Tate~LaBianca victims having been specifically singled out and most of them {except Leno LaBianca} are drug war based. That, from the beginning, the killers always said they didn't know the victims, I would say this rules out all and any drug burn theories and motives.
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