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Saturday, April 18, 2015
Al Wiman Speaks
Reporter Al Wiman who found the Tate murder clothes speaks to a classroom at length about how he and his crew found the clothing and what they did when they realized what they found. Interesting stuff! The sound quality is very poor but listenable. Thanks Chats.
The Al Wiman-story is that they timed themselves while undressing and redressing in the car. At approximately 6 minutes, they were done. So they stopped the car, looked down the canyon and saw the clothing.
According to Linda Kasabian they stopped at Rudolph Webers before throwing the clothing. She should know, since she is supposed to have done actual throwing. Susan Atkins says the clothes were thrown before stopping.
Cielo to Partola is a 4 minute drive, right? At 1-2 minutes of squabbling and going back to Benedict Canyon Drive you should have the 6 minutes. If the clothes were thrown before stopping, as i believe is suggested in Helter Skelter, you've atleast got a probable discrepancy in time.
I guess it doesn't matter much beyond the accountability of Susan Atkins.
I guess the thing that strikes me with Wiman's story is that they went to the trouble to try to re-enact what could have taken place after the murders. They were successful at finding the clothes on the first try. Apparently the police did not use that method to look for the clothing.
It sounds like Wiman was the only person in the car to change his clothes. There is the possibility that when three people in one car are changing their clothes it could have taken a bit longer.
I don't think that I know for sure how many sets of clothes were found, was it three or was it four? If it was four, then it would seem that Kasabian did participate.
Awhile back I asked Wiman about the spot because, as Robot mentioned, it's not 6 and half minutes away. Closer to ten.
At that time, I was struggling to understand which account to believe. Both Kasabian and Watson had them stopping at Portola, then tossing the cloths, knives, and finally the gun. To me, their order made sense and there was a clear trail based on where everything took place, geographically.
And then there was Atkins. She had them getting rid of the clothes, knives, gun and then going to Portola. Good lord. Why would they drive all the way up to Sherman Oaks and then turn around and drive almost all the way back to wash up at Portola. Surely she is mixed up.
But if she was wrong, then I couldn't make sense out of how Wiman and crew could find the spot using the clothes changing experiment. How would that work if the killers made a detour to wash up?
What Wiman told me is that they all changed clothes in the car. When I mentioned the difference in time and location. He told me, one, that was not the first place they had stopped. And two, after the point they had completed the change, the spot where they found the clothes was the first place you could really pull over on Benedict Canyon. Which if you drive up Benedict Canyon, he's right. Today there is a guard rail there so its not easy to stop there now.
In defense of LAPD. What Wiman and his crew did was use logic because they did not have Atkins to personally guide them.
LAPD on the other hand had Atkins out of jail to direct their search, and clearly she did not take them to the correct spot. If you travel a little farther north up Benedict Canyon you can see an area that better fits Atkins' account.
From "Susan Atkins’ Story of 2 Nights of Murder," LATimes, December 14, 1969
"We went for a ride to look for a place to dump the bloody black clothes. We drove along a steep embankment. I’ve got a picture in my mind and all it shows me is the side of a mountain and a road. I just sat in the back seat, slumped down. I don’t remember where we were—and I didn’t pay any attention."
Theres no steep embankment along the road where Wiman stopped, but there is at this location just north of there. Also, the location just north is a massive area compared to where Wiman stopped.
I think the key issue with LAPDs search, was that their guide, "didn't pay any attention"
This is really interesting stuff. A very intelligent well spoken guy. And the comments are very interesting too. I would think if you were in the back "seat" of the car, which I believe was actually removed so they were very low, it would make sense you wouldn't see what was going on outside the car.
Might as well add this: "Many of the spots on the clothing the TV crew had found gave a positive benzidine reaction, indicating blood, but Granado was unable to determine whether it was animal or human." (Helter Skelter, p. 333). So, i guess all the trouble amounted to getting clothing soiled with stuff. Does anyone know of any testing not done by Joe Granado? Or, the whereabouts of any documents relating to the testing?
Next time that I'm down there, I'm going to drive out that way to see what I see. I haven't driven up BCR north of Cielo. Nor have I seen the Weber house.
Cielodrive, thank you for that. Would it be possible for you - or anyone else for that matter - to post a google maps link to the spot where Wiman and his colleagues discovered the clothing?
The Al Wiman-story is that they timed themselves while undressing and redressing in the car. At approximately 6 minutes, they were done. So they stopped the car, looked down the canyon and saw the clothing.
ReplyDeleteAccording to Linda Kasabian they stopped at Rudolph Webers before throwing the clothing. She should know, since she is supposed to have done actual throwing. Susan Atkins says the clothes were thrown before stopping.
Cielo to Partola is a 4 minute drive, right? At 1-2 minutes of squabbling and going back to Benedict Canyon Drive you should have the 6 minutes. If the clothes were thrown before stopping, as i believe is suggested in Helter Skelter, you've atleast got a probable discrepancy in time.
I guess it doesn't matter much beyond the accountability of Susan Atkins.
I'll add to that. In Susan Atkins grand jury testimony, she says they stopped at Webers before throwing the clothes but is corrected.
ReplyDeleteI guess the thing that strikes me with Wiman's story is that they went to the trouble to try to re-enact what could have taken place after the murders. They were successful at finding the clothes on the first try. Apparently the police did not use that method to look for the clothing.
ReplyDeleteIt sounds like Wiman was the only person in the car to change his clothes. There is the possibility that when three people in one car are changing their clothes it could have taken a bit longer.
I don't think that I know for sure how many sets of clothes were found, was it three or was it four? If it was four, then it would seem that Kasabian did participate.
What ever happened to the "clothes" evidence Bugliosi ORDERED the COPS to take back to the Forensic
ReplyDeleteLab in LA - that they found at Barker's Ranch ?
Seems like COPS don't like to touch diry, smelly clothes, BUT they sure love to play with GUNS.
Could you imagine a bunch if cops driving down Benedict Canyon while disrobing? That would raise eyebrows everywhere including San Francisco. LOL.
ReplyDeleteAwhile back I asked Wiman about the spot because, as Robot mentioned, it's not 6 and half minutes away. Closer to ten.
ReplyDeleteAt that time, I was struggling to understand which account to believe. Both Kasabian and Watson had them stopping at Portola, then tossing the cloths, knives, and finally the gun. To me, their order made sense and there was a clear trail based on where everything took place, geographically.
And then there was Atkins. She had them getting rid of the clothes, knives, gun and then going to Portola. Good lord. Why would they drive all the way up to Sherman Oaks and then turn around and drive almost all the way back to wash up at Portola. Surely she is mixed up.
But if she was wrong, then I couldn't make sense out of how Wiman and crew could find the spot using the clothes changing experiment. How would that work if the killers made a detour to wash up?
What Wiman told me is that they all changed clothes in the car. When I mentioned the difference in time and location. He told me, one, that was not the first place they had stopped. And two, after the point they had completed the change, the spot where they found the clothes was the first place you could really pull over on Benedict Canyon. Which if you drive up Benedict Canyon, he's right. Today there is a guard rail there so its not easy to stop there now.
In defense of LAPD. What Wiman and his crew did was use logic because they did not have Atkins to personally guide them.
LAPD on the other hand had Atkins out of jail to direct their search, and clearly she did not take them to the correct spot. If you travel a little farther north up Benedict Canyon you can see an area that better fits Atkins' account.
From "Susan Atkins’ Story of 2 Nights of Murder," LATimes, December 14, 1969
"We went for a ride to look for a place to dump the bloody black clothes. We drove along a steep embankment. I’ve got a picture in my mind and all it shows me is the side of a mountain and a road. I just sat in the back seat, slumped down. I don’t remember where we were—and I didn’t pay any attention."
Theres no steep embankment along the road where Wiman stopped, but there is at this location just north of there. Also, the location just north is a massive area compared to where Wiman stopped.
I think the key issue with LAPDs search, was that their guide, "didn't pay any attention"
This is really interesting stuff. A very intelligent well spoken guy. And the comments are very interesting too. I would think if you were in the back "seat" of the car, which I believe was actually removed so they were very low, it would make sense you wouldn't see what was going on outside the car.
ReplyDeleteMight as well add this: "Many of the spots on the clothing the TV crew had found gave a positive benzidine reaction, indicating blood, but Granado was unable to determine whether it was animal or human." (Helter Skelter, p. 333). So, i guess all the trouble amounted to getting clothing soiled with stuff. Does anyone know of any testing not done by Joe Granado? Or, the whereabouts of any documents relating to the testing?
ReplyDeleteNext time that I'm down there, I'm going to drive out that way to see what I see. I haven't driven up BCR north of Cielo. Nor have I seen the Weber house.
ReplyDeleteCielodrive, thank you for that. Would it be possible for you - or anyone else for that matter - to post a google maps link to the spot where Wiman and his colleagues discovered the clothing?
ReplyDeleteSure Michael, Wiman and crew found the clothes here
ReplyDeleteCielodrive that's great - thank you so much for that. Road trip planned for the autumn.
ReplyDeleteMatt maybe you guys can look for the spot during the tour
ReplyDelete