"Oh, God, no, please don't! Oh, God, no, don't, don't, don't...."
We've all read about the assortment of peculiar noises, gunshots & screams heard that awful night of August the 9th, 1969, and various sources have told different stories as to what actually occurred, and in what sequence, but do we really know 100% what happened? I would have to say a big "hell no!" I don't think anyone does, except for the monsters who were responsible. I'm sure this has been discussed over & over, but I wanted to mention it AGAIN. According to the prosecutor of this case, a man named Tim Ireland heard, at approximately 12:40 A.M., a man screaming "
Oh, God, no, please don't! Oh, God, no, don't, don't, don't...." This was verified by police. (Mr. Ireland probably did not sleep too well for many months afterwards. I know I wouldn't of.) Also, according to defector witness Linda Kasabian, she saw Wojciech Frykowski stumbling out of the house, covered in blood. She also said he was screaming. Did she ever testify as to WHAT he was screaming? I don't know. This "point of view" has also been shared by the actual perpetrators too. Of course, whatever comes out of their yap is worthless, because it's usually self-serving bullshit, but.... What doesn't make sense is, IF, and I mean IF it was Wojciech screaming, why on earth would he have screamed in English? This is something I have never been able to understand. This man did not know English that well, and most likely would of been screaming in his own language, which was Polish. He was also fluent in French, since that is how Abigail Folger was able to communicate with him upon their first meeting. The only possible reason I could think of why he would of screamed in English was to try to get help, but he was probably so scared, and mortally wounded, he wouldn't of even known to do that. All of the victims were most likely in shock, and their brains probably couldn't even function beyond anything, much less trying to remember English phrases. This is one of MANY things about this case I just don't get. I know a lot of people think that Sharon & Jay were outside at some point during the attacks, because their blood was found on the porch. I always thought that was a mistake, caused by the incompetent crime scene technicians at the time. Of course, anything is a possibility. After all these years, one has to wonder WHY Tex & Pat aren't telling the truth about what really happened. Who are they protecting, and why? Sounds, screams, and other clues just don't add up to their version of what happened. I question a lot about this case. What do you think? Was it Wojciech Frykowski, who Tim Ireland heard, or Jay Sebring? Let us know what you think! I'm very curious to know what our readers think.
66 comments:
Ann I am confused by the top photo is that Voytek? Looks to be alive and well but with trauma to the face. To me Voytek could be the source of the Oh no God yells because that is such basic English I would think that could have come to him naturally on the spot. I know people speculate that someone moved Sharon and Jay to the porch postmortem but I haven't read they could have been there during the attacks.
That pic of Voy is from behind the scenes in a Polanski film he was an extra in.
A very good question, Ann.
If I remember correctly, Jay was killed inside the house before he could do any screeming. We only have the word of the hit squad for this, so, it might be incorrect. My guess is it was Voytek screaming. He was under extreme stress but sometimes we do things well under stress. On the other hand, the person who heard the screams could have been mistaken about what he heard.
Parent?
Parent is a good guess as he was outside the house and the window of the car was open no?
but the difference between a man and teenagers voice would have been distinguishable as well no?
Maybe not...
Probably Voytek though is my guess
I remember reading that the witness who heard this scream specifically saying that the scream sounded like there was no accent. I think it was Voytek too, but you never know.
What about Jay Sebring's blood found all over the porch? Mistake?
I guess it could have been Parent too. Plus Voytek was fighting at least for a while very hard and you wouldn't probably be pleading and fighting at the same time.
Seems like the blood was not a mistake since both Sharon and Jay had O? I think while the others were B? and wasn't it distinct pools? On the other hand if Charlie had moved them around later I wouldn't think the blood would flow that freely and you'd think there would be lots of trail of their blood to the outside. Gross that's enough of that.
maybe it was garretson, kinda like obama pardoning a turkey.
It could have been wojtek, screaming for you life in english is gonna get your farther with a guy from texas than speaking polish would.
He probably screamed it right after linda pushed him into the bushes.
Probably parent, which might explain why not everyone else heard it. He was in a car, the sound woulda really went out in funky directions and done some strange bouncing, instead of blasting right out across the canyon.
Garretson is an interesting idea, crash. But Patty's guess is Voytek.
Garretson? How?
When someone screams, though, they don't always have a noticeable accent. I always figured Frykowski, because he seemed like a wuss. No offense to him.
Carol, some have suggested that Garretson was a Family associate by way of Pat Krenwinkel, aka Patty Montgomery (hi Katie!) and was therefore spared. Its a longshotlong shot but so is everything else in this case.
Wojciech was stabbed 51 times, beating over the head with gun 13 times, and shot twice. By the position and location of his body, one could easily make the argument that the last thing he did before dying was attempt to go to Abigail.
You are telling me that guy was a wuss?
10070 seymour kott heard 3 or 4 gun shots coming from the direction of the gate at 10050 cielo drive(call to the police would have changed history). He believes between 1230 and 1am. Those were probably the parent shots, but mr kott said he heard NOTHING further and went to bed. Hard to believe he could have heard the shots from parents murder, but not parent screaming. . Who knows.
The screaming but not gun shots heard by the camp counsellor was directly south of cielo and 3/4 of a mile away. Almost seems it has to be voytek. That would put the house between parent and the camp but voytek would be straight across and down the canyon, if he screamed from out front. Or Garretson.
I put garretson in because I dont like to rule out any male voice present. Except for tex who likely wasnt screaming for help unless voytek was kickin his ass and I dont think he was getting the better of him at any point.
Susan said at the grand jury, not that she is credible, but she did say voytek ran out the front door "yelling for his life, for someone to come help him"
You guys got it all wrong.
Remember Tex's version of events?
He was forced by the girls to kill everyone at the house!
Therefore it was HIM screaming in defense of himself being ordered by Sadie, Linda, and Katie to stab Voytek.
"Oh God no! Please don't make me do this! No! Oh God!"
What are we, in kindergarten here? 45 years later and still trying to figure out the obvious?
Yes Cielo, that guy took quite a mauling and just kept fighting. Heartbreaking to think about.
Could be max!! or maybe it was kasabian in a really deep gutteral voice. She did say she yelled for them to make it stop.
I like this topic.
Wojtek must have been tough, he took a beating and fought to the end. Maybe he used his last breaths to scream for tex to stop attacking Abigail
I'd like to think that when my time comes - no matter the circumstances - that I'd fight as hard as VF did.
Matt:
I'd like to think that when my time comes - no matter the circumstances - that I'd fight as hard as VF did
Even if you're surrounded only by family and doctors? I like it!
But seriously, I share your admiration of what used to be called 'a good death'. He put up a hell of a fight, and it's humbling and painful to think that he may still have been trying to help Ms Folger.
~
My final guess re the desperate screams: perhaps it was Garretson, and he really REALLY didn't like the Sony Digimatic clock radio Parent was trying to demonstrate to him.
No?
.... no.
Michael, during my college years I had the good fortune of being a NY cab driver during summer vacations. I had a passenger who was on the way to the funeral of his guru. During our discussion he said that Baba had a good death. Being intrigued I asked him "what is a good death?" His reply has stayed to me to this day. He said, "to know it's coming and not to be afraid".
Matt you are a bag of surprises.
Being a cab driver in a hot summer in stinking rough magnificent New York = 'good fortune'? I truly admire you man!
Re the good death, amen to that. You can't hope for more than that.
Michael, it was the best job I ever had. It was like a 400 level Sociology class. I'm grateful for the experience. Thank you for your participation here. You are a rare breed!
This is how nobly I'd go out
A wuss? That guy had 3 people standing over him. 2 with knives, and 1 with a bayonet, and a long barreled revolver. He fought till the death, but had no chance at all. I couldn't of even fought. I would of dropped dead from a heart attack (from fright) before they even had a chance to stab. Wuss he was not. Those victims suffered horribly!!
I'd be fightin mad too if some jerk cut my phone lines.
I know, right? That comment the other poster said threw me off. Tex was/is the wuss, not Wojciech.
Jay, as Sharon is being killed (outside)
Patty re: Garretson knowing a Patty Montgomery he was clearly refering to Darrel Kistler's girlfriend, later his wife, who had a last name similar to Montgomery.
The possibility that it was garretson is a stretch but its not limited to the kisler/montgomery scenario.
He may have had no idea what was going on and thought it was a fight in and outside the house. Possible he yelled to them to please stop it, got scared, hid away for the night then never peaked his head out again thinking it was probably just an out of control party with some fights. Rumours of some pretty crazy stuff at that residence have always been around.
He couldnt call the cops, the phone was out. Probably when he realised it was out, checking for the time always seemed lame.
Thats not what i think happened but I cant rule it out. They guy was never consistent with much and I think the polygraph examiner needed a shrink after that session.
Or maybe he was upset when they took away baby rosie? or maybe parent got a little rough with the sex and he just wanted him to stop and be gentle.
In my mind it couldn't have been anyone other than Frykowski. He fought hard and loud. When he became aware that he was losing lots of blood and was getting weak, he probably resorted to pleading for his life.
Parent wouldn't have cried out loud if he was promising not to tell anyone.
Garretson kept silent. If he hadn't he would have been dead too.
crash, you are a wack-job! I love you, man!
Yeah it was Frykowski, must have been
It kind of makes sense that Frykowski would yell for them to stop killing Folger after having fought for his own life or while fighting for his own life. And the witness was 3/4 miles away? Maybe he even heard something different going on. By the way that Garretson interview on the Brian Davis show was a douzy. The mind can play terrible tricks on you when enough years go by.
It's more like Rosie Tate Polanski played games with his mind...
He was a wuss freeloader. Sorry.
Taking Folger for all she had left. Even she was getting in tune with what a wuss he was and was planning on getting away from his out-of-work ass that couldn't sell a story if his life depended on it.
He was a wuss, not a man. Clinged onto people that he thought would benefit him, took their drugs, and died with them.
And I highly doubt he was going to protect Abigail. He was trying to flee for his own safety and just wound up going towards the chaos.
Yeah Max and didn't also get hypnotized to recover "repressed memories" I'm sure some people have repressed memories but I doubt if his from that night as he described them would fall into that category
Harsh Cuntry harsh
SCREAMING - now that's a form of extreme communication that I bet nobody can tell us when it actually began in history. BUT I can tell you this: Sounds travel differently in the hills and even more strangely at night. It is hard to even determine from which direction sounds come from in the hills at night.
IF someone called the cops, it would be fruitless. AND folks living in the hills know this, so they rarely call the cops when they hear noises. Then you have the intensity factor. Listen to the "I can't breathe, I can't breathe," calls of the heavy set black man the cops recently choke-holed to death in New York City. Eleven times HE cried to THEM "I can't breathe." AND they thought, it was his problem, cause HE was too fat.
YES: This SCREAM post is so significant, but almost impossible to interpret. It could have even been the result of some wild sex act taking place "anywhere" in the hills.
Cuntry, he's a wuss because he mooched off Abigail Folger, or because he couldn't fight off Tex? Just trying desperately to understand your opinion.
Thats about as pathetic as star saying well sharon was just some b movie actress who wasnt famous so gives a shit that she was hacked up...
.lame
Word up, Candy!
A wuss or not, my guess is that VF screamed as he was wounded and as he was running out of the house either because he saw Tex coming in for him again or for Abigail.
I didn't know that in their first encounter he and Abigail spoke in French, so he was that bad in english.
But that doesn't mean he couldn't plead for his life in english
@ Cuntry Trash: You know, sometimes I wonder and ask myself if you actualy did knew/do know some of these people in this Story/Saga.
And my thoughts on the screaming ... That almost could not be Garretson. He would have got the killers attention,and then would be envolved, Tex would have finished him off for sure, The orders were to kill EVERYONE there. And sure they could not leave any eye witnesses. Who it was screaming in the carnage..?? I think it was Frykowsky too, because he was the only Male envolved outside, Jay Sebring was shot first,when Tex told them to lay down on the floor,and Sebring protests by saying ,Cant you see She is pregnant ! After that All Hell broke loose,because now they DID REALIZE Tex and Girls were seriously crazy and out to KILL. Panic follows and running scared both ran outside. Sharon was in shoque and hold by Atkins. Sebring was dead at this point. in my opinion they never moved the bodys of Sharon Tate and Sebring to the porch. The blood found there could be from the Towel soaked in both their blood, and Atkins walked on the bloody carpet,to soak the Towel & wrote Pig on the front door.
But then again, this is all based on what I did read/seen in Docus and so on. and just as Orwhut sayd ,,We only have the word of the hit squad for this, so, it might be incorrect,,
crash said: "He probably screamed it right after linda pushed him into the bushes."
Did she really do that or are you just making a joke?
I've never heard of Linda putting her hands on anyone there.
Oh I dont know if she pushed him into the bushes. Not a big stretch to get there though. We only have her word. If he wanted to get away he turned the wrong way and abigail wasnt outside yet. He was in a panic though. Linda said he came out the door, staggered to the post, looked at her, she apologized(what a sweetie) and then he fell in. (helter skelter pg 349) So nobody knows but her and it depends on how credible you think she is. She also said "a man moaned NO NO NO then screamed very loudly from the house", could be the screams that were heard.
Linda didnt have to change, susan said because she didnt have blood on her, but she did get out of the car at webers where they washed. Doesnt mean much but if she was clean it would be better she stayed with the car in case someone came. They almost got pinched there. After all, she was one of the drivers and they did just slaughter a house full of people just down a ways. Maybe she wanted a drink or just some air. The weapons got chucked out after washing up at webers. If weber did reach in and grab at the keys, the bloody clothes and weapons were still in the car so if he spotted that stuff it was likely game over, for either them or rudolph and his wife vixen. At least he got the plate.
I still would have liked to see a defence attorney ask her what she was washing off at the hose if she had no blood on her, just to hear her answer. I know it doesnt mean much at all, but I would have liked to hear it.
I guess i just dont trust much she says so I like to keep all possibilities open. I dont know if she pushed him, but I think she is the reason he turned that way.
I have no doubt she minimized her involvement, so I question almost everything she says and look at all possibilities. Some of its laughable but so is helter skelter.
I always think that Linda could of saved the LaBiancas from being slaughtered. If she would of ran off early morning from Spahn ranch, she could of caught a ride to a police station, and sung. They did have her daughter, though. She ended up running away anyway, and leaving her daughter with those scuz ball. No sense makes sense, I guess.
Robert:
'It could have even been the result of some wild sex act taking place "anywhere" in the hills.'
Thank you Robert, for that beautiful window into your world. Can I live one day as Robert Hendrickson please?
speaking of no sense making sense I wonder about telling Linda to go because she has a license and then there all sorts of accounts on who's doing the driving and then Charlie driving the second night and her along for the same reason.
That thing about the valid licence is funny...so you are living an outlaw life - auto theft, doing/dealing drugs, stealing....and you worry about a licence? Anyway the girl goes along and after a while some other people take the wheel and the licence doesn't matter anymore. no sense make sense.
Sorry, "license"
@ CrisPOA, about the ,Licence thing, thats quite obvious. If you get stopped by cops in lets say just a routine control, then you wont go anny further without a licence,and the cops will check out everything. If you get stopped with having a licence then the possibility you can follow your way is much bigger. And the chance cops digging and checking is much less. You know what I still do not get is this.... Bobby B. caught sleeping in Hinmans car , WITH the Murder weapon,bloody clothes and all. HOW STUPID can one be ???
Hellz, yes i thought about the checking thing but how that didn't matter afterwards? I mean you need valid license to murder but not after that? ;)
I agree with Chatsworth Charlie on this one. I think it was Jay, screaming as he saw Sharon being stabbed in the back, outside on the porch and I think Jay was on the walk when it happened. He then was stabbed when he ran to her, hence the scream at the end. I've always thought the official narrative and sequence of events was bullsh*t. Just my opinion, though.
As far as Frykowski, he had a fairly notorious reputation as a brawler, according to Roman Polanski and others. I might think of alot of adjectives by which to describe him, but "wimp" would never be one of them (or whatever term it was that was used in one of the above comments.).
HellzBellz,
A while back someone, on this forum, I think, stated that Charley might have put the murder weapon in the car, so Bobby would be caught. Whether this is the case or not, he must have been out of his mind to drive Gary's car.
Austin Ann's comment about how Linda could have saved the LaBianca's reminded me of the fact that my favorite Manson gal, Ella Jo Bailey, could have saved them all if she had dropped a dime after she realized they killed her friend Gary and it was HER INFO given to Manson that probably initiated the attack.
It sure would be a helluva treat to learn what Ella Jo has been thinking all these years - if she has had guilt or any sense of responsibility. She fled quickly enough when she realized what happened at Hinman's and later came back to testify but the fact remains she did not drop the dime when it could have prevented Cielo and Waverly et all. Gotta be a bitch to live with.
Yeah, I dont think you need to have much English to scream "Oh no, Oh God, don't". He would have been able to access that much English...also the killers were speaking English, not much use pleading in Polish or French, and its amazing how sharp the brain becomes under serious stress, under killing conditions. It doesnt get cloudy or confused, quite the reverse, and reasons much faster.
The only other man in the house was Jay and all accounts agree he was killed right off.
Mind you, the girls were able to hear Parent pleading, and canyons play tricks. Never mind canyons, the fact I live in a courtyard with buildings facing in, in a semi-circle which means even low conversation late at night wakes me up. I seem to be right at the centre point of it.
In Less Than Zero, one of the most frightening books I have ever read, Bret Easton Ellis describes his affectless teenagers as hearing screams in the hills every night. Sometimes turning off the music to listen. But always just listing 'screams in the night' as an ordinary happening.
It's brilliant, that book. It leaves me with a constricted awful hollow scared feeiing
Frykowski was brave but he made a huge mistake in trying to escape out the front door, if he had kept his head for a moment he would have realised that this was a kill or be killed situation, his first action taken should have been to shake off that irritant called Susan Atkins and gone on to stun the Devil in a surprise all out screaming top of his voice attack on his throat and a do or die 100 % bid to put him out of the game, if he managed it Sharon, Abigail and himself would surely have lived
Woytek Frykowski at the time of his death still relied on Abigail Folger to translate for him. If he was screaming in English there would have been a heavy Polish/Eastern European accent. Idk, Steven Parent? I thought Frykowski and Sebring had the same blood type, so could it have been Woytek's blood and then Sharon Tate's blood on the porch? The timeline doesn't make sense. Could the killer's have left after killing Parent then returned? Did the killers take time to try and hang Sharon Tate and Jay Sebring's bodies inside? I also don't understand why Watson and Krenwinkel won't tell what really happened that night.
It is quite possible that this voice was from Voytek despite the distortion factors that blocked any easy identification from a sound. At one point he was the only man in a situation of extreme adrenaline and out of the house. He probably absorbed a few basic English words in his time with Abigail on Cielo Drive and this in-and-out thing with different people he and Polanski-Tate had contact with.
And I believe his body being close to Folger's was a coincidence, he just as Folger was trying to escape blindly and both ran in different directions. You can't even know if he could hear clearly or pay attention to the fight his girlfriend was fighting with other attackers considering his mental state, in a moment between the chaotic thoughts he realized that none of them would come out of that place alive and that those killers would guarantee this. As Tex himself said, he was there to be the executioner just like the rest of the group determined to achieve the perfect scenario of human sacrifice, none of them were there to grant mercy. Frykowski screamed as much as he could in that isolated place until he was too weak for even a whisper.
Post a Comment