Over the last couple of years, or however long I have had the opportunity of writing for this wonderful blog, I have always been totally, 100% against any of the Hinman/Tate/LaBianca/Shea murderers getting released. I have always thought "lock them up, and throw away the key" until I read something that made me question my previous judgement. By the way, Tex Watson isn't included in my "compassion." I can't think of any solid reason to ever release that person incubus onto society.
Anyway, what I am talking about is a report that was done by the group "Legal Services for Prisoners with Children." The report is called "Dignity Denied: The Price of Imprisoning Older Women in California." Now, I know this report is about older WOMEN in California prisons, but I think a lot of the same factors could be applied to geriatric men as well, Charles Manson included. Guess who was a contributor to this report, amongst others? Leslie Van Houten, and Betty Broderick (of A Woman Scored: The Betty Broderick Story fame). Since this report was done in 2005, I was a little surprised that Susan Atkins, and Patricia Krenwinkel didn't give any input, since, technically they are/were in the same boat. This report is a bit long, so whenever you have time, please read it, and let us know what you think. Compassionate release, or lock them up, and throw away the key? Other alternatives would be a nursing home-type facility, or home confinement. I guess I am one of those that thinks maybe a nursing-home type situation is better. Maybe not 100% freedom, but confinement in a safer, more humane environment. I know these women, especially PK and LVH did a terrible, horrible thing, but they are still elderly human beings. Here is the link:
Anyway, what I am talking about is a report that was done by the group "Legal Services for Prisoners with Children." The report is called "Dignity Denied: The Price of Imprisoning Older Women in California." Now, I know this report is about older WOMEN in California prisons, but I think a lot of the same factors could be applied to geriatric men as well, Charles Manson included. Guess who was a contributor to this report, amongst others? Leslie Van Houten, and Betty Broderick (of A Woman Scored: The Betty Broderick Story fame). Since this report was done in 2005, I was a little surprised that Susan Atkins, and Patricia Krenwinkel didn't give any input, since, technically they are/were in the same boat. This report is a bit long, so whenever you have time, please read it, and let us know what you think. Compassionate release, or lock them up, and throw away the key? Other alternatives would be a nursing home-type facility, or home confinement. I guess I am one of those that thinks maybe a nursing-home type situation is better. Maybe not 100% freedom, but confinement in a safer, more humane environment. I know these women, especially PK and LVH did a terrible, horrible thing, but they are still elderly human beings. Here is the link:
69 comments:
Nursing home for the old ladies
and, I know it's almost impossible but, a garden for Chuck Summers. The guy can be mean, but has provided us all with some crazy stories over the years.
Freedom for Bruce and Cupid, and
to hell with Watson.
I'm not a fan of "zero tolerance" or "one siz fits all" justice. I think that every case should considered on it's own merits, or lack therof. I think Leslie, Bruce, and Bobby should be released.....
What about Pat Krenwinkel?
No on PK, IMO.
AustinAnn74 said...
What about Pat Krenwinkel?
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Hi Ann, I'm on the fence with Krenwiknel. I think she has true remorse and don't think she'd be a danger to society but she was and participated in both crime scenes. Personally, I'd release her but I don't see that happening.....
Are you sure you are ok with releasing Bruce?
Hi Max. I'd like to review prison records first but I don't think Bruce would be a physical danger to anybody. The guy is pretty old. He's served more than 40 years. I'd probaby kick him loose.
I think if Bruce got the green light from the Governor (unlikely)that he (BD) has said that he would still have a Fed sentence of 3 years to serve, although they would try to get it down to 2.
In CM's case, I wish Corcoran would stop putting a man of 79 into solitary confinement or taking his wheelchair away from him - some of the misdemeanours he commits are hardly life threatening!
Leslie and Pat I would let go. BB I would only let go if he promised to stop telling lies, and let him and the Colonel get together in one of those Civil Partnership ceremonies because they are so much in love!!!
Tex should be kept inside, not only because of him being the main murderer, but it would save the rest of the world from having to listen to his Born Again Christian sermons!
I understand that the prisons have inmates who are blind and in wheelchairs - what possible threat are they to anyone? Would it not be better all round to put people over, say, the age of 75 in an open prison or a nursing home. Just because they did bad deeds in their lives, doesn't mean that we have to act without compassion.
Too many counts to ever release Krenwinkel, in my opinion. Don't even get me started on that s.o.b. Watson.
I am so much "on the fence" with release. I know these people would probably not hurt anyone again, but what about punishment for what they did? I just don't know. These people killed with delight, and absolute. I know they don't exist, but if they had an institution for elderly prisoners, that would be better.
I usually NEVER address the parole / prison system as it relates to the Manson Family, BUT here is some thought: Why did Leslie and Bruce obtain higher educations in the subjects of God and shoveling shit, INSTEAD of becoming LAWYERS (because IF they were attorneys, they would be OUT by now.) Of course, that raises the issue of WHY Charles Manson NEVER tried to learn the law and pursue HIS violation of Constitutional Rights Claim. He's had 40 some years to publicly PROVE he is NOT a murderer and show the world just how smart HE really is.
There is ALWAYS a "missing" link that can explain a mystery, SO why doesn't the establishment want to reveal the back door to life's relevant mysteries?
NOW, why did the "the law" purposely "blow" the Polanski extradition procedure?
The answer may lie within today's breaking headlines that expose the Hollywood movie colony as being infested with pedafiles.
Robert, you just touched on an angle we've been collectively thinking through together here at mansonblog.com for two years!
I usually say they should never be released but I bet the good people of the state of CA are sick of paying for them. But they would be paying for them anyway, even if they were released. Hmm
Patrick Sequeira always bring up in parole hearings the fact that some of them have studied philosophy & theology, and for having an interest in the Bible. He actually uses that against them, and tells the board that the Manson Family was a quasi-religious cult, and that they haven't really changed, because of their interest in these particular fields of study. I know Sequeira is there to make sure they don't get a date, but he goes way, way overboard with some of them. He brings up the most ridiculous things. He knows that he is not supposed to talk about anything, other than the "life crime" and he always does the opposite, and brings up stuff that was in Helter Skelter. I don't remember where I read it, but somebody saw him actually carrying a copy of Helter Skelter in into a parole hearing. That, right there should be grounds for criminal charges.
They're lucky they weren't executed. It's not a matter of no longer being a danger to society. It's a matter of punishment for committing murder and that is a life sentence.
so true, Carol.
Speaking of executions, Happy Good Friday. Patty observes from 12-3pm according to LCMS tradition.
Panamint Patty said...
Speaking of executions, Happy Good Friday. Patty observes from 12-3pm according to LCMS tradition.
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Hi Patty, I googled LCMS and found more than one meaning. Which one are you referring to?
lutheran church, MO synod. Patty and blogger Bobby were both brought up that way.
Thanks Patty. I was brought up in a Catholic church in Oakland, CA. I hear a lot of former Catholics say that the church was abusive. My memories were all good memories and probably the happiest time of my life. I never saw a nun hit anybody and I was never molested by a priest but to this day, sometimes I see a priest on the street and say to myself "Damn! What I'd give to be 12 again".....
what faith do the ladies in jail profess to be, Patty wonders?
what faith indeed.
we can't use 'assholeness' as a criteria for incarceration. Half the world are assholes. That's not even close to justice.
So we differentiate based on a notion of 'extreme' vileness. interestingly enough for a Christian nation, it is contrary to Bible teachings of all sin being equal.
So Leslie should walk the beach, but not Pat because she was the more vicious and did it twice. Pat was more extreme.
But where is the extreme line drawn? Who decides? Do we? Does the Supreme Court? Maury Povich?
The Cal gov will weigh in soon as to the whereabouts of the line visa vi Bruce. Should be interesting.
By the way, I read yesterday where Iceland, my all-time favorite country, has a population of around 315,000 and a total prison population of 200. TWO HUNDRED!!!
Maybe for a small fee they'd take Charlie et all on an exchange program.
Interesting thoughts from everyone. PK expresses the most remorse and seems to be sincere, yet she doesn't seem to get any slack from most people.
I believe if we only had the balls to let some of these people out that we would learn a thing about incarceration, rehabilitation, and punishment. Clem is out and is seemingly doing fine. I would like to see Bruce out to see what he may be like. BB maybe too although he seems to have been his own worst enemy over the years. LVH for sure, and the fact that the one-legged cancer ridden Susan Atkins couldn't get a compassionate release when she had a husband and family with the means to take care of her is to me pretty outrageous. I know, they all could have been executed, but they weren't and the law is the law so deal with it. I really think that it's also outrageous for BD to have been found fit for parole by the board three times in a row now and the Gov. can veto it. If that doesn't take this out of the realm of crime and punishment and make it political, then I'll eat my hat.
Oh, and Squeaky, who lives just down the road from me (a slight exaggeratrion, for sure) is seemingly doing fine too. And my sources in the law enforcement community confirm this as well.
Now that's a surprise.
NICE
Robert Hendrickson said...
NOW, why did the "the law" purposely "blow" the Polanski extradition procedure?
The answer may lie within today's breaking headlines that expose the Hollywood movie colony as being infested with pedafiles
-----------------------------------
Here are some things related to this that bother me:
1) Bobby's new Professor Ponderous video is rife with Monarch programming--not to mention his Sassy Bottoms collection.
2) Polanksi's child porn/rape issues. Samantha wasn't the 1st or last minor he photographed naked-- I also recently read Rodney Alcala "studied" under Roman at NYU in '75
3) Sharon's photo shoot in the Alice In Wonderland outfit, where she is made to look like a little girl, bunny and all. (I've often wondered if the bunny in Abigail's room wasn't the same used in Sharon's photo shoot-it sure looks like the same bunny)-- AIW is a mind programming/porn theme.
These are just a few things I've been wondering about more recently. This issue raised it's ugly head again just yesterday with the accusations against the X-men director. I'm sure it will quietly go away like most others. Sure wish Cory Feldman would talk.
The photos of Sharon dressed as a sexy child have always bothered patty too. 12Pm PST in T-15: See y'all later
Good luck on the exams Patty!
Happy Easter Patty, and everyone!!!!
When I read that report I was shocked to know that the prisoners have to actually pay for their own doctor's visits. If they can't work because of illness, and don't have family/friends on the outside putting money on their account, they don't get to see a doctor, or get medication. Also, I read in another book about prison life that institution doctors are very inhumane. They will NOT give prisoners (even cancer patients) access to pain medication. They basically give you ibuprofen.
I know a lot of people will say that these people deserve to be treated inhumane, because of what they did, but two wrongs don't make a right. Just an opinion. Hope I don't piss anyone off. That is easily done on here sometimes. :)
Ann,
Think for a moment about the people in prison. These are people, who through their own actions, have demonstrated that they lack the ability to function within the norms of society. To give them access to pain medication can create even greater problems within a prison. From trafficking to abuse to barter, such medications pose a risk if not highly regulated.
Treating someone I humanely benefits no none and creates greater danger within prison walls. However, it is coming up with a definition of what is humane, accepted by everyone, that can, at times, be elusive.
Good to see you Dill !
AustinAnn74 said...
Also, I read in another book about prison life that institution doctors are very inhumane.
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I think it comes down to the individual MD. My step father was the Chief Medical Officer (head doctor) at CMF, Vacaville in the 70s and early 80s. He was a very compassionate man to the point that prisoners manipulated him. The reason that I know this is because one of his peers, Dr Newsome had a son who I avoided high school with named Vince who played cornback for the LA Rams and Cleveland Browns and is now, as far as I know, in management with the Baltimore Ravens and one time I was at his house and we overheard the grown ups gossiping about it. My step father's name was Dr Ralph E Prout. We called him Gene. Man, the stories he would tell us about Manson, Eldrige Cleaver, Juan Corona and Edmund Kemper...... He led an interesting life for sure......
I personally feel that a human as the right to be "corrected" and to really change and become a different person. And in the course of 47 years, it can happen. I think with that being said, everyone who is truly able to be rehabilitated (this is sans true sociopaths, pedos, rapists, mass killers...) should be considered for parole.
In this case, Katie is so far from that. She is as vile as Tex, in my opinion. I think Leslie is one who can easily be considered as well as Bruce D and Bobby.
However, I also believe in justice and if their life sentence ends with them being wheeled out in a hearse, then so be it.
As for growing old, it's hard to feel bad for these people... I DO feel bad for a 85 year old man in prison for robbery or drugs or whatever.
I think Bruce is rehabilitated. I WANT to believe he was associated with other deaths, but we have to believe in "innocent until proven guilty."
Tex needs to be put back in the court room for killing Shorty.
Looks like TOTLB is back up.
Cats: "Content stays."
I guess I am sensitive to seeing people in pain. My mom has stage 4 cancer, and I am her caregiver. I can't imagine her not having access to pain medication. Shit, it is horrible even with the pain meds. Listen, I know these people are prisoners, and did horrible things, and I also realize that they can manipulate doctors, guards & other staff, but if someone needs pain meds, and they have a genuine issue, then I see nothing wrong with them being dispensed. Of course, the other side of the issue is, the addicts would want it, especially someone going through opiate withdrawals. This is why I am so "on the fence" with the issues. That whole "study" made me feel for the elderly prisoners, but then, I have to wonder what their victims families think. It makes you think, that is for sure. Please do not misunderstand me. I am no bleeding heart by any means, but that study did make me feel bad for some of them that are in that situation. I guess that is what sympathy is. I don't know.
Also, Doc Sierra, I know from experience how people can manipulate doctors. My grandpa was an MD in a small town for over 45 years. I worked in the clinic during the summer, and witnessed a lot of people wanting pain meds for the stupidest reasons. It was bad. I don't think all prison docs are bad, just some. That goes for the outside too.
No,sorry not ever. They showed no compassion to their victims.
Release them when the victims are released from their sentences
Release them when the victims are released from their sentences
Uncle Troll, Uncle Troll. My guess is that your biscuits are a little doughy in the middle due to all of the swirlies you received in middle school. Lay off dude, I'm not the one that gave you a Melvin in front of your mother, who by the way, looks hot in her lime green stretch pants and bright orange lip stick. She would be even hotter if she didn't spend most of her time in the AFDC cheese line shouting obscenities about Richard Nixon but hey, whatever floats your boat loser.....
CarolMR said:
"They're lucky they weren't executed. It's not a matter of no longer being a danger to society. It's a matter of punishment for committing murder and that is a life sentence."
Yes, yes and yes.
The rest of you aging baby boomers are getting too soft.
Wow!
wow, be careful of what I wish for, eh Matt.
I've no awareness of this Uncle guy but he comes out of the chute spewing slime at two of my favorites, Doc and Patty. Gotta find my gladiator suit.
Are you guys familiar with the Jewish Brigade called the Avengers founded by Abba Kovner - they rounded up and executed many Nazis secretly after the war's end.
They also devised what they called Plan A - which was a plan to poison the water supply of four German cities so as to kill six million Germans - children, grandmas, everyone. They truly believed they were justified in doing so under the biblical "eye for an eye" principle.
Think about that for a second, really. Poison six million. And believing it just.
The plan was actually thwarted by fellow Jews, Zionists, who were afraid what effect world-wide reaction would do to their goal of establishing a Jewish state - Israel.
I know I am going way off track here, but actually this all falls under the heading of justice.
If one asks what is justice for the Manson killers you can always cite the 'heinous nature of the crimes' as reason for extreme punishment. But for me that is a disingenuous assertion for we all know it is not the "heinous" that keeps em locked up, it is the "notorious". Killers who have killed with equal viciousness have walked out of prison long before their sentences dictated.
Let's not kid ourselves - we live in a celebrity culture and the Manson folk are celebrity killers. They will always be judged differently.
And that, I believe, is fundamentally wrong.
Nice to see you Leary!
I decided to serve Uncle Gilly a little justice DebS style and deleted his comments! :)
I dig me some Leary. Thanks man. I think what I'll do is just scroll past any other posts that Uncle Troll writes. I'm very grateful for my blessed life and for the fact that I don't have to hide behind a keyboard, perpetrating unprovoked attacks and spend my time doing the things I like to do. I'm going fishing at Bear River Reservoir tomorrow morning. Wish me luck.....
Release Leslie Van Houten!!
Leary, you can put down the gladiator suit. Commenting with an edge is fine. This guy never left the playground. His comments will be deleted from now on. No room for that.
If they were released, how would they support themselves financially? This was an issue raised at one of Bobby's parole hearings, and he seemed to think his 'artistic' endeavors would do it for him. However, he has just released a version of Sarah McLachlan's 'Angel' and you can hear an excerpt from it on his site. It really is pretty poor -his singing is not great and the production sound is bad. I think the guy is delusional.
The parole board probably want him to do some regular job to support himself.
To leary7:
Your mention of the Jewish war story raises the issue that there is: ALWAYS another side to a story.
I have 16mm film that shows German soldiers pumping GAS into the rooftop attics of apartments..
Remember the story of Ann Frank?
That is so heinous I checked with real historians and they said there is NO evidence that the Germans were that EVIL, BUT I have it on film.
The Japanese ATTACKED the American Embassy in China BEFORE Pearl Harbor. The "Panay" (ship) was even attacked for trying to carry our diplomats to safety. So it is possible that America set Japan up, like the Indians set-up Custer.
Point is: IF you think the Vietnam War had nothing to do with the MANSON Family - well, nobody can be AWARE for you.
The Japanese used to perform autopsies on prisoners WHILE they were fully awake. AND we didn't even touch Emperor Hirohito.
President John F. Kennedy STARTED the Vietnam War because the Russian Communists publicly humiliated him. So over 50 thousand American boys DIED because of HIS ego.
Sometimes, "Ego is a too-much thing."
WARNING: This website is becoming dangerous with REAL information.
Thanks Leary
All of the posts here are very thought provoking and lead to the question of the humanity and decency in all of us. As I hem and haw, I'm always drawn back to the same question: what would the victim's next of kin think? The quote below is from Brie (Tate) Ford, Sharon's niece, who has had to bear witness to both her grandparents and her mother's illnesses, and then deaths, while her aunt's killers have lived on in a relatively comfortable lifestyle, considering the circumstances. A lifestyle that each of the victims' family members have paid for through their tax dollars for 45 years. Ironic isn't it that they've had to contribute their hard earned money each year to keep the killers alive and well?
Ford's quote:
In the spring of 2008 Atkins was diagnosed with a cancerous brain tumor. She and her family appealed for compassionate release from prison so that she could die in the comfort of her family’s home.
At present there are more than eleven thousand elderly prisoners in California, and the Manson women are among them. For anyone with a heart, it’s tough not to feel sympathy when prisoners’ rights advocates who support compassionate release show us pictures of old, fragile, often sick women and say, 'It’s a terrible injustice . . . When you’re in prison, all you want is to be able to die with dignity . . . I saw a woman get down to her knees and beg for morphine . . . I saw one woman with throat cancer, who kept getting denied parole, fall into her own blood and die.'
While my heart aches for any suffering human being, I forced myself to look away from photos of the pathetic and dying Susan Atkins and remember the young and vibrant Atkins, who with callous disregard, unjustly murdered eight people and watched them beg for their lives, fall down into their own blood, and die without an ounce of dignity. The parole board must have agreed because at her last hearing in 2009, with full knowledge that she had only months to live, they gave her a three-year denial.
On September 24, 2009, Atkins’s husband, James Whitehouse released this statement: “Susan passed away peacefully surrounded by friends and loved ones . . . Her last whispered word was ‘Amen.’ ”
Well, God bless her, because that’s more than I can say for any one of her victims.
I have major qualms about the prospect of Bobby being released. While the victims of the 8th and 9th died in the most excruciating and terrifying of circumstances, in comparison to Gary Hinman, their murders weren't carried out over a prolonged three day torture spree.
I've read Bobby's accounts of remorse and apparent rejection of "all things negative" (according to his website) but I still can't get past the glee in which he described hearing maggots doing their work upon Gary's lifeless body days after the murder.
Rehabilitated he may be, but Bobby was there the entire 72 odd hours and participated in every level of torture and murder. It still wigs me out that Mary essentially got away scot free.
Tex? I don't know about him being released, quite simply because, IMO, he was the "glue" that helped to facilitate the killings. Without his "guidance", would Susan, Patricia and Leslie been able to carry through on their own over the course of those August nights in '69? Despite the Christianity, he was responsible for making sure all the victims were killed.
Patricia? She participated with a particular "gusto", true, and by all accounts, she was the most indoctrinated of all the girls but she seems to be genuinely remorseful. I'm conflicted, really.
Leslie? OK, she was the one who volunteered to go and perfectly well knew what she was going to do. On the other hand, she participated in one murder (yes, the argument of whether the wounds were post mortem, I know) and was an accessory to another murder. She seems to have been genuinely the most remorseful and has been a near exemplary inmate and, IMO, virtually no risk of re-offending, so ultimately I think she should be freed.
Bruce? On the surface, I think he's another one with zero potentiality of re-offending and he's done his time and appears fully rehabilitated. If I felt he were utterly transparent I'd allocate him a "Get Out Of Jail" card but I still get the feeling there's lots more that went on during that time he's not yet disclosed, so I really don't know.
Damn, I'd really hate to have the responsibility of being on a parole board. SO many potential case scenarios, SO many "ifs and buts"....
bucpaul2812 - excellent post. I am totally in agreement with your thoughts on the length of time that poor Gary Hinman was made to suffer, in the full knowledge that those three morons were never going to let him go. He must have been in terrible pain from the facial wound. He had helped both Mary and Bobby out in the past. If you look at the film of BB when he is arrested and arriving at the police station, he can't wipe the smirk off his face. He is also a draft dodger - remember a lot of young US guys did not agree with the Vietnam war, but went knowing that they possibly wouldn't be coming back.
People think the Parole Board treat Bobby worse than the rest. Maybe it's because he talks about himself, his music and art more than he voices any remorse for what he did.
Robert Hendrickson - as always, your posts are informative and thought provoking.
equinox234 - Many thanks for your kind words. I had this massive concern I might not have gotten my point(s) across as well as I wanted to and accidentally given any kind of impression that the TLB killings were in any way, shape of fashion less horrific than Gary's death.
Regarding Bobby - he still had that smirky, douchey veneer when he was being interviewed by Truman Capote. I remember Bobby dismissively saying something along the lines of "Indians are wanting to be called "Native Americans" now." Fair enough, you can attribute much arrogance to the folly of youth and all but even now he still seems to try to diminish his level of responsibility by attributing what happened to events escalating out of his control. Oh, how that "you better hope I never get out" quote must haunt him during every parole application...
I haven't read the ageing article in its' entirety yet but from what I've read so far, it's really insightful. I really wish I had access to that article when I was doing criminology modules at university, it would have been a treasure trove of info regarding essays I did.
said in jest Matt. I'm to tired to ever enter the arena again. But I still remain dumbfounded by the compulsion for personal attacks. I've come to believe that is something that needs to be taught at a young age - the ability to disagree without venom.
Happy fishin Doc, I'd share a canoe with you anytime.
And the lies of history, RH, are always deserving of our scrutiny. Right there with ya.
Also dead on with the Bobby thoughts - his persona just seems to repel remorsefulness.
LOL, leary. Understood...
wow, I just read that U.S. has 330 million people and 108 million are on welfare.
How is that even possible?
Man, things are gonna get freaky (not if) but when the govt faucet gets turned off.
Leary7,
That's an amazing statistic. I thought it was just us Brits who had a huge proportion of benefit recipients.
If any of the incarcerated Manson Family ever get paroled, welfare is directly where they will be heading because I can't see any employer falling over themselves to take them on. Who needs that kind of publicity?
Are former lifers allowed to sell their stories or movie rights in the US? I'd hate to see any of them making themselves wealthy out of their notoriety.
with regards to them profiting off their infamy, equinox, I think that ship has sailed.
funny though, I always wanted to write a story titled "X Marks The Wacko" which would detail the daily challenges someone who had so visibly chosen to X themselves out of society would have once they decided to drop back in.
Take Mary Brunner. She has rejected Manson by the time she got out of prison. She moved back to Wisconsin but from what I have read her son never lived with her again. From the photos on here it seems she has made friends and is a social activist of some sort. But one wonders if the X is still visible on her forehead if that made it hard to get dates. Or a job. Or even an apt.
Star and Grey Wolf X'd themselves out last year. You wonder if her manager at Taco Bell makes Star cover up the X when she is working the cash register.
Or maybe I just wonder to much.
Here's a STAT: 2 % read the books and 2 % have most the wealth. Is the rest rocket science ?
Many of the Ukraine people want to re-join Russia - BECAUSE they miss the food lines. I thought that was stupid until I realized WE love to stand in line for MOVIES, new I-PHONES, the post office, cheaper gas and half-off sales.
Last night I caught about ten minutes of a multi-MILLION DOLLAR movie depicting the last days of Jesus Christ. It was in a foreign language, but it was very easy to understand all the agony Jesus was going through, as he kept EXPRESSING pain - up on the cross. Finally, the Roman soldiers got upset with all Jesus's complaining and started beating him to shut him up. That didn't work so the soldier boss handed a spear to a private and ordered HIM to end the noise - which HE did by puncturing Christ's stomach.
A clear liquid came spraying-out all over the soldiers and that really pissed them-off.
Is that the story as WE were taught, cause now I''m thinking HISTORY lies in the hands of those who can AFFORD to create it.
Robert,
Thanks. It's a privilege to hear from you.
leary7, regarding Mary's 'X', I would have thought that heavy fringe substantially covers any remaining evidence of that 'marked the spot'. Mind you, I would have thought the vast majority of ex-Mansonites would have had laser, chemical peels or IPL to rid themselves of any traces of the 'X'.
Speaking of thinking too much, at times I wonder when everyone carved the 'X' if some of them were a bit more strategic as to how high up on their foreheads they chose to put them. I noticed some were more or less between the brows while others were pretty high up and consequently, much easier to conceal with a fringe. Then again, if you're indoctrinated enough to carve something into your forehead, do you really have the where-with-all to care about the possibility that you might want to camoflauge it in the future with a fringe?
Which brings us back to Star. I would think her manager makes her use Sheer Cover concealer to camoflauge the 'X'. I wonder if in fact that fast food outlet could make her disguise that 'X', I understand there are rules surrounding appearance and stuff but if they tried to make her cover that mark up, would she, in theory, be able to make a claim of persecution?
One third of Americans are served "welfare" by the government in hopes THEY will NOT demonstrate and riot in the streets in front of "B of A" s bank buildings. My info comes from reliable sources.
The establishment LEARNED a lesson from the 1960s.
I don't feel they would be of harm to anyone now. But I am puzzled. After all this time I see them in parole hearings telling how what they did effected 'me'. I don't feel they grasp the full scope of their actions. This isn't about them. I don't think they see it, even now, and I believe the board gets that from them as well.
Wvredhead, I think a lot of people have noticed the same thing. They asked Pat Krenwinkel who she has hurt the most, and instead of saying the victims she answered herself. That is creepy. I don't think they should be released after all, even if the geriatric report that this posting is about made me feel bad for all elderly prisoners. I feel more sorry for the victims and their families though. They ruined so many lives.
Should have been released years ago on the grounds of strict justice supposed to be blind. Just because a case is a cause celebre is no reason to play to the feelings of the mob. I think this is the really bad side of electing your district attorneys instead of appointing them. Justice is compromised.
The girlfriend of Charles Starkweather makes a useful comparison. Carol Ann Fugate accompanied Starkweather on his killing spree and certainly appeared to be well up for the murders, which were even more senseless than Tate-LaBianca. She was given life imprisonment and served 17 years, like the Manson girls a model prisoner, she was then released.
She didnt have the excuse of being under the domination of an extreme man like Manson. Look what Penny Daniels has said. She only met Manson for two hours: look how affected she was..she was believing his spiel! Those girls heard that every day, all day, for two solid years! Plus they had serious issues: Susan, her life was a horror of abuse and lovelessness, and Krenwinkel also felt unlovable...they committed ot Manson on very deep levels and stuff like that DOES NOT HAPPEN CONSCIOUSLY. You dont make a sudden decision to do it. Its like being a battered wife, it happens in increments.
I cannot believe the lack of understanding and compassion. I cant believe people on this blog wouldnt at least try to walk a mile in their shoes. Yeah, of course, they were clear-headed and just made eveil decisions. yeah lock them up! that's the way forward! Let's not even try to understand...so it can happen again, and again...
America really should be bitterly ashamed of it's prisons and justice system. to belong to First world nations and still have the death penalty...barbaric.
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