"Because there was no doubt that I knew that what was ever going to happen here was not going to be good. I did know that that was, the plan was to murder two women inside the house. That was given, that was a given."
Here is the second thing that I noticed that sounds strange. What am I talking about? I am talking about Debra Tate telling the parole board in her statement that SHE was the first person interviewed by the police department, and by the FBI, because she was at the Cielo house all summer! Why would Debra Tate out of hundreds of people been the first person interviewed? Hell, I am not doubting her story, I just want to know WHY HER. I have NOTHING against Debra Tate, and I don't fancy bashing her on a blog, but I have to ask these things. Here is the part of the transcript where she stated this:
"My name is Debra Tate. I'm a sister to Sharon Tate, one of the victims. Something that most of the people don't know in this room is I was the first person interviewed by the police department and by the FBI, because I had spent all the summer prior at that house."
I have ONE MORE THING that I MUST bring up, or it will drive me nuts! If this was really true, I find it a weird, eerie, creepy coincidence. I also would like to add that IF this was really true, why wasn't it brought up at trial, or even in Helter Skelter by Mr. Bugliosi? What am I talking about? I am talking about Debra Tate telling the parole board that she MET the Manson Family BEFORE the murders! Here is the part of the transcript where she stated this:
" Just prior to me, us moving back to Palos Verdes, I was in Sausalito at the same time the Manson family was in the San Francisco area. I remember these people approaching me in the street of the Haight Ashbury, and they were people that I, even at the age of 16, passed on as being oddballs."
In closing, I am scratching my head in thought. You can find the full parole transcript at the fascinating, insightful, well-done site of cielodrive.com:
53 comments:
Good job, AustinAnn. That was a fascinating post.
Being in prison, you'll say anything to get out. They've been telling PK she hasn't taken responsibility for years. So, at the hearing she's saying whatever she has to, to take full responsibility. She's been coached on this as well.
As far as DT; she likes the attention. She's an idiot. I feel bad for her for what she's been through, but she's an idiot.
Thank you, Orwhut!
I was just reading someplace that as late as 1976 officers found pictures of Charles Manson and poems and doodles about him in Katie's cell-this being after Red's ford thing I guess-
With all the freaks in the Haight at that time, she remembers a chance encounter with the Family? Patty smells bullshit. It sounds like the same kind of myth repeated by all the people who said they were invited to Cielo that night. Sadie was selling weed so maybe they met briefly, but come on, really?
1) Kill two women at the Tate house? MAYBE!
2) But the FBI on the Tate murder case? Why would the LAPD call them in for help? Or did the FBI already have "jurisdiction," via an ongoing investigation? This issue deserves further inquiry!!!!!
3) The Manson Family looked like "oddballs" in the Haight? That sounds like the Gang was really "far-out"...
AustinAnn, you hit one out of the park! Anyone gonna catch the clues?
Robert Hendrickson
FBI? Like, for international drug smuggling maybe?
I have read the first police report, and part of the second one, and I couldn't find Debra Tate's name anywhere in there. I think the first person interviewed would of been the maid, or Garretson, for sure. Oh course, I wasn't there, thank God, and I don't know 100%. The more I read old parole hearings, reports, etc. the more I find a lot of weirdness. Hell, I could write a whole book about the weirdness surrounding this case.
The FBI entered the case almost immediately mainly due to the drug angle that was being investigated early on in the case. There is very little in the way of FOIA docs available to the public. You can view some of the docs here-
http://vault.fbi.gov/Charles%20Manson/Charles%20Manson%20Part%201%20of%201/view
The biggie in this file is that the FBI was trying to intercept two more trunks that had been sent from Europe to the Polanski residence.
I find it odd that the trunks were addressed to Roman and Frykowski as opposed to Roman and Sharon. These trunks did not leave England until the 10th of August, the day after the murders but certainly could have been dropped off to be shipped days before they actually left England.
We've got three previous posts dealing with the steamer trunks that were already at Cielo HERE, HERE and HERE.
Did the FBI interview Debra Tate first? Hell, I don't know these things. Maybe, just maybe she knew more about things than people give her credit for, since she did hang out at the house during the summer. Maybe, just maybe? Like I said, that parole hearing was full of weirdness, that I had never read before. Deb, your research is impecable!
For some reason, compulsive liars can’t seem to grasp the concept that simple questions do not need four or five iterations in order to be answered. Yet they all do it; 100% of the time.
“PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MELANSON: Have you ever written a letter before today?
INMATE KRENWINKEL: I have written letters. Some I could not send out to anyone. I threw them away. I have written (inaudible) I have written.”
By “written letters” are you inferring that they be folded neatly and placed into an envelope, with an intended recipient’s address, printed in English, with an ink pen or graphite pencil, with a proper amount of postage, issued by the USPS, and affixed to said and same envelope, then placed into an approved postal receptacle, where an employee of the Postal Service, or authorized designee would empty said container and carry the aforementioned letter to a cart, truck, or other vehicle for further processing, which leads to delivery to the same person who is the intended correspondent? Cuz that’s a lot to assume here.
Because I’ve written letters in that they may not have met every complex, and nearly impossible to orchestrate process mentioned before, but I have written letters in a more sublime sense which could appear as indifference, laying on my bunk, or soliciting forbidden love from a new fish.
Incredible.
WOW! That bottom photo of Debra is stunning. All three of those girls got their mother's eyes. I've heard she had a bout with heroin. If heroin turns you into an orca, then I'll pass thank you very much.
She looks to me like she had a bout with carbohydrates. I know I did, and lost.
Stress will do that to a person's appearance. I have no doubt that this lady has health problems related to stress. I mean, she lost her whole family & all. That has to suck! But....I still don't understand why she has to convince people that she was part of the whole case. Everyone knows she was. Her sister was one of the victims, but her telling the board that she met the Manson Family in the Haight is just plain weird!
orwhut said...
She looks to me like she had a bout with carbohydrates.
----------------
orwhut, that was so funny I almost peed myself!
Carbs seem to stack up on most of us over the years. Debra still looked great in one recent photo that someone put up.
Yeah, Orwhut, I know what you mean about carbs. I have to fight the f*ckers everyday, and make sure I don't eat a lot of them anymore! hahah....I also have to work-out daily, or else.....I'd be doomed! hahah.....anyway, back to the show...I think Debra Tate still is a beautiful woman. All three of the Tate girls were gorgeous, inluding their mother in her day.
I've never understood all the insults about Debra's weight...what does that have to do with anything?
And She isn't even really THAT big,walk through Walmart any Day of the Week if You want to see BIG!
Patty is studying biology...turns out that obesity may be related to your gut flora being too good at breaking down food for ya rather than a lack of willpower. Fat people are the last great prejudice to be conquered so its too bad that fat jokes are so goddamned funny.
Has anyone heard from Doc lately?
Debs weight should have nothing to do with nothing...
Just my opinion
Here is another:
Great job Ann :) Very good stuff!!
I believe one of the last prejudices to be conquered is being single.
Having a different and higher tax rate is quite prejudicial, and worthy of a few jokes. Of course much of that problem has been mitigated via gay marriage, but the lifestyle choice of simply being single is financially penalized. Imagine a sales tax based upon marital status. It should be easy since there’s already a group of income taxes which follow an equally absurd premise.
Same for the myth of equal pay for equal work. Two people with identical job titles can have pay deltas of two or three times thanks to the “free” medical benefits supplied to spouses and children who don’t even work at the company or institution. Strange how there’s no outrage over a person subsidizing the health care of another group for many, many years. Even when this inequity is pointed out, you can bet the farm that those receiving the benefits of this prejudice will do absolutely nothing to make it equitable or the slightest bit better.
Even the fair housing law states one can’t discriminate against a person for race, color, religion, or age; I read this on a sign in a new “55 and older” community. It is amazing how a bias can blind a person or federal agency. I once lamented fat jokes; then I met the single person who had no fat in their paycheck or fat medical benefits. (cue: cricket chirps)
Patty said: Fat people are the last great prejudice to be conquered
Oh yeah? What about tobacco smokers? :-)
yep, theres that one too, but smoking is a choice. Patty feels badly that some of us got addicted and she is working to correct that before buying the farm like Dad Patty did.
She is also beginning to believe that being fat is not a choice. Just ask the Pima Indians. If this is true, it will become a civil rights issue, not a behavioral one. Only time will tell.
You shouldn't make fun of fat people unless you are one and I are one.
Forgive me Debra.....and Jeff Foxworthy.
Interesting... considering a couple parole hearings prior she said she did not know they were to murder at all until they got past the gate. She said she understood it was a robbery.
I wouldn't put stock in anything she says because she has seemed to say anything to find a loophole.
But this is an interesting thing to delve further into because there may be some truth in it.
I never believed that krenwinkel, Watson and Atkins did NOT know who was in that house.
I agree that fatness often has nothing to do with choice... different metabolisms, different body-types etc... the prejudice against fat people is very much a cultural construct. Go to somewhere like rural India and having a "large" wife is a status symbol... it shows you're rich enough to eat well.
Kicking an addiction though can be pretty difficult also... particularly if you grew up at a time when smoking was "acceptable" and awareness of the affect it has on unborn babies was pretty minimal... some of us where just born addicted to tobacco... that's a tough one to beat.
Fascinating post, Anne.
The question keeps being asked but not answered:
Anyone heard from Doc?
As far as the carbs go...go brown rice all the way, hey hey!!!
I'm with Panamint Patty on calling BS when it come to Debra seeing "The Family" in the Haight. It wasn't even much of a family at that point yet, perhaps Mary and Sadie?
Even though I know Charlie is in prison I still find myself doing a double take on guys that look like Charlie on Haight Street LOL! Perhaps he really is out? ;-)
Ohhhhh.Sausalito! In her Tendler and May BEL book p98, it says that Billy Hitchcock, the rich Harvard friend and financeur of Tim Leary, had a place in Sausalito. Would Deb maybe have been staying there? Sausalito is a very small, very fancy community across the GG Bridge from The City.
Does anyone else think that picture of Pat looks like Eddy Munster?
Question: would DT's mother have let her go hang out down in the Haight? Me thinks not! Maybe she snuck down there with friends, like I would of done. I still call BS on her story though.
Yes, I was thinking the same thing!! Haha...
I think being overweight has a lot to do with genetics, which makes me wonder if Sharon would have put on weight as she grew older.
It seems possible that Debra's comment regarding "these people approaching me" does not necessarily refer to the Manson family she mentions in her previous sentence. The juxtaposition of those references might be unintentional. Perhaps she was just referring to the strangeness of the people and the scene on Haight St and was not saying that she actually saw or met any of the small number of people in the embryonic "family".
Panamint Patty said...
Ohhhhh.Sausalito! In her Tendler and May BEL book p98, it says that Billy Hitchcock, the rich Harvard friend and financeur of Tim Leary, had a place in Sausalito. Would Deb maybe have been staying there? Sausalito is a very small, very fancy community across the GG Bridge from The City.
Jay Sebring opened a new salon in San Francisco in May 1969 and shortly after rented a houseboat in Sausalito according to his partner Art Blum.
Also, quoting from an Aug. 10, 1969 San Francisco Chronicle article, where I got the above info, "Nearly every time Sebring flew up from Southern California to check on the operation of Sebrings of San Francisco at 629 Commercial St., he would visit Lt. Col. Paul J Tate. Tate the father of Sharon Tate,27,- wife of director Roman Polanski- is nearing retirement as assistant chief of staff for intelligence at the Sixth Region Army Air Defense Command at Ft. Baker. He lives in nearby Ft. Berry."
Both Ft. Baker and Ft. Berry are in Sausalito. It seems a bit more reasonable that Debra was visiting her father or possibly Jay in Sausalito.
whew...thanks Deb, Patty was a little wound up there for a sec.
Lt.Col Paul Tate (father of a slain daughter) and "assistant chief of staff for intelligence at the sixth region Army Air Defense Command at Ft Baker." ANYONE see something significant here? When in the early 1960's, I was just another member of the Area 51 team, IF anyone close to me was murdered, the CIA / Air Force would have been all over it. Mr. Tate had the entire resources of the US Army at his disposal, and HE could NOT come up with any relevant info, or DID he?
Robert Hendrickson
Ugh. That poor man.
Yes, Col. & Mrs. Tate endured the unendurable. I can't imagine it. BUG downplays PJ's investigation, only mentioning is in passing and dismissively. I have a hunch that that isn't even close to the truth.
The police, in my opinion did not solve the case. Motormouth Glutz, thank God, spilled the beans. We still don't have a reason why though. It was NOT because of Helter Skelter, that is for sure!
Patty just went looking for 629 Commercial St. in SF: Jay's shop is no longer there. It was apparently demolished to make way for 505 Montgomery, a 24 story office building in the financial district. :(
Hi everyone. Been in the hospital for a little while. Great to be back!
Hi everyone. Been in the hospital for a little while. Great to be back!
It's also my birthday today.....
Doc,
I hope you're all well now and Happy Birthday.
Oh my gosh Patty is so glad ur OK Doc. You must send her your REAL DANG NAME so she can come cheer you up if it happens again. Hugs
And HAPPY BIRTHDAY WOOT
Hey Doc.
Cheers!
Glad ur feeling better, Doc. Happy Birthday!
Happy belated, Doc!!!
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