What, one asks is the point of rehashing up evidence from a case that was closed a long, long time ago? Why do people, including myself still seem confused as to what really happened those two nights in August, 1969? Will anyone, other than the perpetrators, and their friends find out the truth, once, and for all? I do hope so. Sometimes I find myself feeling guilty for even being interested in such human tragedy, but on the other hand find myself pissed off that the actual killers still haven’t divulged the TRUE sequence of events. So, as it turns out, I was (Internet) visiting Cielodrive.com, which is a really good site, and came across some photos of the Cielo crime scene that reminded me of the posting I read a while back about if/when Manson & friends returned to the scene. I have never thought Manson would of been that dumb to place himself at the scene of the crime, when he didn't even go with them the first time around. Of course, Manson has never been a suave, smooth criminal. He always got caught, no matter what! Anyway....something caught my attention in the photos.
In the first crime scene photo, you are shown the living room area during the investigation. You can clearly see where the rope is hanging from the beam.
In the second photo (courtesy of Cielodrive.com), you see one of the detective's hand pointing to a blood smear on one of the living room beams:
Ok, in the third you see where the actual beam is located:
This blood evidence is clearly not making sense with what the killers stated happened. Yes, I know the killers are/were liars of the most devious kind, but I ask myself "Why would there be blood on THAT particular beam, if the rope to "hang" them was the beam closer to Jay Sebring's body?" Did they move the rope after they had begun stabbing?
Let the discussions begin.....
Watson was stabbing wildly at Voy in that area of the living room, could the blood have flew off the knife while Watson was swinging it ?
ReplyDeleteI can't make out any droplets from the blood having been slung up there and it appears to be only on the bottom of the beam. Could Tex have reached the beam with the bloody pistol?
ReplyDeleteJay is shot, bleeds on the rope which is then thrown over the beam?
ReplyDeleteThe rope was over that beam originally, during the struggle its comes free, when Atkins comes back into the living room she throws it over the beam it was found on and holds it to stop Sharon escaping ?
ReplyDeleteNone of the evidence slightly backs up the killers lies. We do not know exactly what happened that night, but I would bet the truth is a million miles away from the killers version of events. The blood/beam issue,it isn't a drop of blood, it is more in the pattern of a 'rope burn' This means beyond a doubt there was blood on the rope when it was placed onto the beam. Why, is anyones guess and a guess will be closer to the truth than the official version.
ReplyDeleteGreat post Ann- very thoughtful!
ReplyDeleteI think, just maybe, We do have the sequence of events right those two nights- just don't have the right the WHY yet. Most of the parole hearing transcripts for all of them lay out pretty consistently the way things went down. I never thought myself Charlie went back- but if he did it still wouldn't have changed the way the murders happened before he got there.
he moved some things around? Maybe-
"non believer's" point makes sense to me- it doesn't look like a splatter as much as a skinny straight line, BUT in the first pic the rope is touching the top of the beam and hanging loose around the bottom where the line appears to be ( underneath on the bottom where his finger is pointing to)...
so it is a strange question. Maybe on Abounding ministries in one of his online books he mentions when the rope was used and placed over the beam, or it comes up in a transcript somewhere from a trial or parole hearing...
I will check when I get a minute lol
For what it is worth here is what Tex says:
ReplyDeleteI had already tied Frykowski's hands behind him with one end of the rope we'd brought and now I dragged the rope over to Sebring and tied him, while Sadie tied a towel around Frykowski's wrists according to my instructions. I wrapped the rope around Sebring's neck and then slung it up over one of the rafters that ran across the room and supported a loft above the fireplace. When I started to tie the rope around Sharon's neck, Sebring struggled forward in the chair he was seated in beside the fireplace, shouting for me to be careful of her.
"I told you, 'One more word and you're dead,' " I screamed and shot him. As he slumped forward onto the rug, still alive, Sharon became hysterical, but the Folger woman seemed anxious to cooperate, as if somehow she could bring sanity into the madness simply by maintaining her own control.
The rest of this chapter is graphic but he doesn't mention the rope again... this is it- he goes into the struggle and chasing the other around and killing them- but that is the last mention of the rope...
By the way if this IS true- call Jay a sex freak and drug dealer or whatever else- he was twice the guy Roman was any day of the week...
At his last parole hearing he has now decided he does not " recall " a rope.
ReplyDeleteReally? I found a youtube video where he actually says something about following Manson's instructions, and gathering everything, including a rope. A true mentiroso!!
DeleteYes, he decided not to talk to the parole board, when they were discussing his life crime his lawyer made a statement and said that he doesn't recall a rope.
DeleteGreat observations. Very much to ponder.
ReplyDeleteI am a true believer Manson and co. went back. People say Manson was a smart criminal, suave, kept away from the scenes, et al. BULLDUNG.
ReplyDeleteManson made so many stupid mistakes in these killings like putting himself at the LaBianca's home. That alone shows Manson wasn't smart enough to stay away from the scenes.
Then supposedly Manson was at the Shea and Hinman scenes.
So, Manson going back doesn't sound unlikely because of one thing: paranoia. Paranoid that Tex and co. left way too much evidence behind.
Also, I go with Jay bleeding onto the rope that tied him over the beam.
You know, my thoughts is that Tex, Sadie and Katie recall VERY little. That they took the stories fed to them and pieced it together for themselves, to help themselves understand.
Tex has told about 6 different versions that I know of and I am convinced that he believed every one to be true.
Look at the LaBianca scene; Tex for instance says he carved WAR on Leno. But Katie said she did (at one time). Why; because that info was fed to her and she used it to piece it together. I bet Katie or Tex doesn't remember who carved WAR.
What puzzles me is that it does indeed look more like a smear - possibly from the rope - than a cast-off blood splatter. BUT, I can't imagine any scenario in which a bloody rope leaves a clear smear on the underside of a beam, but nothing at all on the side of that same beam. The laws of physics and probability suggest that we might expect to see such a rope smear only on the top of the beam, or on the top and the sides - but how is it possible for there to be a rope smear ONLY on the underside? Did the rope defy gravity somehow, or ... or what?
ReplyDeleteEveryone look at this closely again!!!
ReplyDeletecount the crossbeams from the wall
he isn't standing under the same area of beam when he is pointing-
as the area of beam the rope is hanging from in the first pic
???? am I that stoned as I keep staring and staring at this....
In the fist pic the beam with the rope is almost all the way against the wall....
in the third pic it is more in the middle of the room
no?
the blood stain in the third pic
ReplyDelete( which he is pointing to close up in the second pic)
is not in the same area the rope is hanging around in the first pic...
in the first pic the rope is hanging from the beam which is closest to wall- in the third pic he is pointing to beam with one more crossbeam in between it ( and closer to) and the wall...
I think
Stoner as I am- I have looked at this enough times to see there is a descrepency here in these photos..
ReplyDeleteMaybe there was some doctoring of the crime scene. But not what we thought- hard to explain this.
Maybe it wasn't Charlie going back, and maybe it was law enforcement covering up for what they perceived as mistakes or sloppy steps in the initial investigation?
or maybe this means didley skadoo in the big scheme of things
BUT- these photos don't tell a true story because the blood stain isn't where the rope was hanging by their own photos... or they were even sloppier when photographing their own crime scene and allowed it to be moved and snapped pics in the wrong place??
either way- like everything else- if you know for sure some of it isn't true- you cant believe for sure any of it is true until its proven...
which proves exactly what ??
lol
Saint, step away from the bong! What you are saying is basically what Ann is questioning in her last paragraph of the post.....
ReplyDeleteI just noticed your profile photo, Deb. I LOVE it! I don't think my cat could fit in a taco, maybe a burrito though. Nice!!
Deleteok I thought I solved the whole goddamn case lol
ReplyDeleteooops
ReplyDelete:)
I guess I missed that last part
Im back to being totally lost again trying to figure this out...
ReplyDeletehave a great weekend all lol
maybe by monday I will have the motive
Wild stabbing sounds right.
ReplyDeleteI've never understood the part in Sanders' book where he says that Sebring, Sharon and Abigail struggled and begged for their lives after Jay had been shot and left for dead.
That picture is really bugging me. Why is the blood only underneath the beam? Also, why would there have been blood on the rope, if they tied them up first? Ahhh. Those photos clearly aren't adding up with the supposed sequence of events. I wonder if a blood spatter expert could study all the crime scene photos to determine what happened? Where is Dexter when you need him?
ReplyDeleteCould Tex have got blood on his hands after killing Steve and when he picked the rope up got blood on it then ?
ReplyDeleteI find it difficult to believe that Tex no longer recalls a rope. That seems very hard to believe that a person could forget that detail.
ReplyDeleteNo conspiracy theory intended. It was probably artistic licence.
ReplyDeleteThey go on to say that Watson re read his book and remembers a rope around the necks of Sharon and Jay. Does he need to check his book to remember what he done ?
ReplyDeleteWhy does hw admit actually stabbing, but denies the rope? It doesn't make it any less horrifying!! Tex should quit wasting his time appearing before a parole board. They will never let him out. Never!
ReplyDeleteI know there wasn't DNA available in 1969, but couldn't the crime lab have tested the blood on the beam? At least it would indicate blood type.
ReplyDeleteSomething else I find baffling, Tex claims he turned the hall light off, he hit the switch with his elbow, this is the hall leading to the bedrooms. When the first police arrived in the morning they noticed that light was on and a desk light in the living room. So who turned the hall light back on ?
ReplyDeleteIt was probably a plug-in desk lamp and they realized that they needed to see a little bit, yet make it dark enough to scare the crap out of them. Just my guess.
ReplyDeleteAny reason the blood from arteries wouldn't have flown that high? I have seen a man hit an artery and it just hit the ceiling
ReplyDeleteSo far as the mark on the beam that the detective is pointing to, I've seen the photo before, but have not yet read anything that identifies it as blood. If anyone has a link, this would be appreciated.
ReplyDeleteSo far as the location of the rope and the location of the mark, they are indeed on two different supports. The rope is hanging from a large longitudinal support that the cross beams rest on. The mark is on one the cross beams.
As to the rope leaving a blood trace, the 1st homicide report says:
"Blood on the rope has also been typed as O. Investigating officers did
not observe blood on this rope other than that portion which was in
contact with the bodies. "
This seems to say that there no blood on the rope anywhere near the free length that might be slung over a beam. Therefore, it is unlikely that the mark, if it is blood, came from the rope.
The location of the mark, underneath the beam, seems an unlikely place for a suspended rope to leave blood. It would seem much more likely on the top or sides of the beam, but in no case would it be ONLY on the bottom.
The mark, if it is blood, seems most likely to have been spatter that was slung centrifigually from a cloth or weapon, or an arterial spurt.
WRT Manson returning, one should consider that there had been 7 gunshots, screaming, and a dog barking that the intruders may have told him about. Given this, they might feel lucky to have not been intercepted by the police at the scene, and this would go double for anyone returning to the scene that night.
ReplyDeleteI suppose that the timing is *possible*, but again unlikely; he might have arrived up there at 3 AM perhaps, but how did he enter? Thru the gate by pressing the button, which rings a sort of mission bell when it open or closed? Remember, the wires are down, across the gate, and opening/closing would seem to tangle the loose cable somewhat.
Climbed up the slope, like the intruders?
When he left, did he press the inside gate button, further tangling the cut cables, and ringing the bell? So let's see: the intruders cut the two cables, climb up the slope, do their dirty work, and Watson presses the inside gate button when he leaves, ringing he bell, which no one heard, but he doesn't know that. Then he d goes back to Spahn, tells Manson all this stuff--and he'd be negligent in not telling about the noises, but who knows?--Manson comes back and if he used the gate to enter and/or exit, that would be a second or third disturbance of the cables and ringing of bells, and Mrs. Chapman, on entering and exiting on the morning of the 9th disturbed the cables yet again.
Hmmm...
But, no matter. Now Manson's in there, at 3 AM, at the end of a cul de sac, with no escape route other than straight back out, possibly meeting the police on he way in, if they had been summoned? There had been, again, 7 shots, screaming, and a dog barking.
Maybe Manson would think this is all right, but would you, were you in his place?