Tuesday, August 30, 2011
1969 Michigan Loader
I started reading Desert Shadows last night. A fact I didn't know was that workers arrived very shortly after Family members set fire to the Michigan Loader. I thought it was days after. In fact when they got there they extinguished the fire themselves. The piece of machinery was new and cost Inyo County about $35,000. This calculates to about $216, 000 in 2011 dollars. No wonder they were as upset as they were. Below are photos of a 1969 Michigan Loader.
Yes, the dumbass Family...not smart enough to want to lay low below the radar after the most horrific murders in LA history....
ReplyDeleteDesert Shadows is, in my opinion, one of the better books on the Family and while reading it you can't help to think what a bunch of idiots these people were to not fly under the radar but, instead, to draw all kinds of law enforcement attention. the girls going into town and pushing drugs. The stupidest bunch of people ever.
ReplyDeleteSomeone, (maybe in this blog) said that loader was being used to destroy Charlie's Helter Skelter escape route and that's why it was burned.
ReplyDeleteThe Patties will try and find the burn site for ya in November, Matt. They are pretty sure they know where it would have been, just need the Grump to corroborate. ;)
ReplyDeletefunny liz im just finishing it. its a great read. a lot of info in there i forgot...and a lot im not sure i believe.
ReplyDeleteAndy,
ReplyDeleteDid you play the part of the neighbor on Home Improvement?
starship said...
ReplyDeleteYes, the dumbass Family...not smart enough to want to lay low below the radar after the most horrific murders in LA history...
They could have hid out up there for a long time if they didn't burn the loader. I believe in Helter Skelter it said, "you could have hid the Statue of Liberty up there and no one would ever see it". Very true indeed.
There were once-in-a-millennium floods in DV in February of 1969. Inyo County was trying to repair some of the roads that maintenance workers would need.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure I believe that CM would have gone over to Cielo that night "to see what my children had done" because um, that would just be too stupid, right?
Yes, Matt it's very stupid and I don't believe Charles went to the crime scene that night either. If he did, why not grab Susan's knife from the couch?
ReplyDeleteWho's glasses are those??
If Tex fired his gun in the driveway a few times at Parent and nobody inside heard-
ReplyDeleteand William in the guest house didn't hear the noise the entire night while people were running around inside and out and the gun went off several times...
why couldn't they have gone back, when it was totally quiet, hours later...
if they did go back there and the cop lights weren't swirling by then...
it was very late by now- this time they KNEW it would be quiet ( they had no reason to know the guy was still in the guesthouse)... and they had to figure nobody else was there alive
it wouldn't have been any more stupid to go then as it was to go originally no???
and the first crew went not knowing what to expect...
charlie would have had a good idea what to expect the second time- and if the cops hadn't been called yet- he might have figured he had a little time-
no sense makes sense....
leave a few false clues ( glasses, rope.. etc etc)
not as smart as leaving Panther prints on the wall to deflect blame...
but along the same level of creativity....
in my mind it remains a possibility
albeit a remote one...
after the amazing amount of times they were arrested and released while living in the City...
They had to feel they were pretty much invincible out in the middle of nowhere...
That probably was the demise of the Michigan loader as anything else....
they were some very stupid people and drugged up at that- but they never seemed to stay in trouble, so what was one more law to break???
and again- they had made it through so many police encounters by then....
who could bother them out there???
Katie, I think Matt is just comparing the 1969 and 2011 dollar values via an inflation calculator.
ReplyDeleteSusan: "Hey Charlie, as long as you're going back why don't you pick up the knife that I dropped."
ReplyDeletewhat would charles manson accomplish by going to the scene?
Back on the subject of the Michigan loader, it was probably one of the younger members that had little to do with anything and didn't realize the gravity of what he/she was doing.
He moved bodies to throw off the fuzz, huh?
ReplyDeleteHe set fire to the Michigan Loader?
I made up the quote. My point was, why did Susan NOT say this to Charles if he was in fact going to the crime scene.
ReplyDeleteAnd if you really think that CM new every single thing the family did then you fell for the prosecutions story hook line and sinker.
The problem is you do a lot of guessing.
ReplyDeletePS, is that you arguing with Harold True over what is the truth on your shitty website?? Boy do you sound dumb!
Hey Katie!
ReplyDeleteNice of you to come over and visit.
Someone needed to get these rascals in line! lol
If I see one, I'll let you know!
ReplyDeleteandy said...
ReplyDeletefunny liz im just finishing it. its a great read. a lot of info in there i forgot...and a lot im not sure i believe.
Andy remember the Michigan Loader my neighbor had? LOL
Katie you make The Col seem laid back by comparison.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Liz and crew for not tolerating the crazies!
ReplyDeleteOk, I just posted this on the Col's site but think it's pertinent here. Katie, I hope you don't think I'm attacking you, it's just the example that came to mind right away...
ReplyDeleteThere are certain things that we believe about the case which, unfortunately, are not provable...but as long as they are plausible and they are based on some sort of fact as it were...statements, testimony, police reports, etc, then there shouldn't be any real reason not to believe they occurred.
On for instance with me: I believe that Manson and at least one, probably two others did indeed go to Cielo Drive after the murders...why? Because in all of the accounts of what occurred at Cielo, and they are all similar, there is no mention of the steamer trunks being knocked over...of the horned rimmed glasses being planted, of the towel being nicely tucked over Jay's head underneath the noose around his neck...yet that is what the police found the next day...
So, I feel that it is not really too much of a stretch for me to believe what I believe.
Now, Katie, I'm sorry, I am going to pick on you...she believes that Rosemary LaBianca's daughter and boyfriend at the time were involved in that murder. Recently she said she believes it because Rosemary didn't approve of her relationship with the boyfriend and that Rosemary was threatening to cut her daughter out of her will. Ok, there is substantiation for the first part...that there was trouble in Rosemary's relationship with her daughter about the boyfriend...it's even in the police report. But as for the second part, that Rosemary was going to cut her daughter out of her will, well that's just a pure speculative leap based on the first part. It's possible, I suppose, but doesn't neccessarily follow.
And a couple of other things: Desert Shadows...was always on my list of books to read, was going to get it out of the library when one morning walking through my house I find a brand new paperback copy lying on the floor. Honestly, I have no idea where it came from. I must have bought it somewhere but have no memory of it. I've been known to drinks a bit from time to time so...
ReplyDeleteAs for Andy being the neighbor from Home Improvement: Remember his name was WILSON. Remember the episode when his cousins from California came over to visit? You know, the WILSONS? As in the Beach Boys?
Too bad that guy is dead now too. Maybe they sat around his house in Michigan telling Manson stories.
Tim the Toolman Taylor! Perhaps Wilson told him something...could be the break in the case we're looking for.
ReplyDeleteooooo - ooooo - oooooooooo
ReplyDelete(that was a bad toolman grunt)
ReplyDeleteThank you Matt, Patty was not sure what to make of that...LOL
ReplyDeleteStarship,
ReplyDeleteI'd forgotten the neighbor's name. Is Andy a Wilson? There's a definite resemblance.
Geez guys, as Katie stated, she was just trying to protect the poor teens (like revatron) from Liz. I can understand her pleading with Liz to stop tricking them about Charlie's ways and she just wanted it to stop. Any concerned blogger would do the same:)
ReplyDeleteBoy....it gets pretty wild at these places at night. Specially at 3:00 to 4:30 am Texas time.
You are the ones that think Charlie is so powerful. According to you he knew everything the family did, well everything except he didn't know about Susan's knife being left at the house. That sure would have been good to know, you know, since he went back to the house and all. He could have picked it up.
ReplyDeletePicking up that knife would have been more effective than "moving bodies" or "planting glasses".
I was joking by pointing out the absurd.
ReplyDeleteReavatron said...
ReplyDeleteBack on the subject of the Michigan loader, it was probably one of the younger members that had little to do with anything and didn't realize the gravity of what he/she was doing.
I say....
in Desert Shadows i think it says it was Manson, Snake, Gypsy, and someone else, i forget who.
Also from that book i was reminded that Susan was far from being the only "snitch" and Kitty pretty much opened up a lot of info to officers. She was another come and go member it seems.
Liz, i remember very little from that trip to see you. Thats not true really, i remember trading some cool manson vids and books, you cooking up a vegetarian meal, meeting your daughter, and having a cool time in general! But cant say i remember the neighbors loader.
I didnt get the referance to that TV show so i looked it up. lol. No im not him nor any relation. i could see the confusion though
nice way to promote ATWA start a gasoline fire of a machine and let all the air, plants, people and desert animals get full of pollution
ReplyDeleteAndy said...
ReplyDeletein Desert Shadows i think it says it was Manson, Snake, Gypsy, and someone else, i forget who.
That surprises me. I wonder what the reason was. I imagine they weren't just having fun.
Charlie is a grandiose thinker, the center of the universe in his eyes. When he saw the Michigan loader up there on the backside of Hunter Mountain, he thought that the work they were doing was to prevent him from traversing the backroads of Death Valley at night. He was really really angry about it, took it as a personal affront.
ReplyDeleteI buy it. It's not so dumb a crime, they just got caught. They had had incredible luck until then.
ReplyDeleteI think Backporch Michael has photos of, and knows the guy who owns the actual Michigan Loaded that was torched.
ReplyDeletestarship, I would not call the T/L murders the most horrific. Gruesome, yes, but there have been a lot more horrific. Maybe not as publicized but a lot more horrific.
? Hey Dickhead, sounds like you misunderstood what I said. Katie Said that burning the loader was dumb. I'm saying it wasn't dumb, they just got caught.
ReplyDeletesadie just said she lost her knife, she didn't know where. if she knew where it was she would have got it herself, before they left.
ReplyDeleteOn behalf of Liz and the crew - you're welcome, Suze.
ReplyDeleteWell, I missed the shenanigans the other night, but I saw enough in the morning to catch the gist of it. I wish some folks could learn to stay away from the computer when they are (ahem) not in their best state of mind but that's apparently never going to happen with some.
I use my real name on the blogs and my avatar is really me (albeit about 20 lbs. heavier). I try hard not to write anything I wouldn't want my mother to read. It keeps me honest.
Open debate is a great thing. Disagreement conducted in a civil tone sparks even better debate and we learn things. There are some that don't agree with the theme of this site. Their opinions are welcome. The problem is that there is a segment of the population who are emotionally damaged. To disagree with them is to challenge their being, I guess and they go over the top.
The bottom line is if you attack anybody personally or act crazy, your comments will be deleted - and you will be ignored. If you disagree with other contributors (even heatedly) you are welcome to comment away as long as it is civil.
Thank you too the rest of you that get it!
I learned to stay away from my computer when I am not in my right state of mind :)
ReplyDeleteThat is why I am here so little now
lol
I attached a breathalyzer to my laptop and I have to blow in before I am allowed to type...
anything over .8 and I am beat...
:)
Im trying to find a way to modify it so i can also use it as a water bong- but so far no luck
I always thought Andy was Jimmy Kimmel...
ReplyDeleteHe ain't Jimmy, he ain't Wilson, but he does F**KING ROCK!
ReplyDeleteDickhead said...
ReplyDelete"Matt suggested that I address you as someone, for whom english is a second language."
No, D, what I said was, "I could be wrong but Revitron strikes me as someone for whom English may be his/her second language."
I could very well be wrong about that, I've been wrong before. I know some who are extremely proficient in English as their first language but who think much faster than they type. In any case sometimes their thoughts can be mis-perceived.
My perception of you to this point is that you have something to prove. I'm not sure why. This isn't a gang fight, it's a blog. If your goal is to "prove" that you are intellectually superior to the rest of us, then I bow in the glow of your greatness. You win.
Just keep in mind that when you "contribute" here, you have to be civil. I won't respond to you any longer when you answer to us on Col's blog.
Bye...
Matt said...
ReplyDelete"I could be wrong but Revitron strikes me as someone for whom English may be his/her second language."
What in the world did I say to give the impression that I was a foreigner? Not that there's anything wrong with that. Was it the "Who's"?
revatron said...
ReplyDeleteWhat in the world did I say to give the impression that I was a foreigner?
My bad, revatron. There were two subjects mixed; the Michigan Loader and CM going to the crime scene at Cielo. My point back then was that the burning of the Michigan loader was so incredibly dumb for criminals that were seeking camouflaged refuge in Death Valley to set fire to expensive government machinery and draw attention to themselves, that why not entertain the possibility that CM was dumb enough to go out to Cielo after the murders there - another very dumb move, if it indeed happened.
My perception was that you missed that point. I speculated that your English was weak. Now I suspect that my explanation was poor. Again, my bad. Please forgive me.
Ah, no problem at all. My fault. I did in fact read that, I just wasn't sure how to respond because I guess I have mixed feelings about the loader and whether or not it was "dumb" to burn it. Any one know how close it was to the ranches? I don't want to get hung up on a word, but I think my point is that we refer to the burning of the loader as dumb because it brought heat down on them.
ReplyDeleteI can't compare the loader incident to CM going to Cielo after the murders. One is just so much dumber than the other in my opinion.
The place in Death Valley where it was found was very near to "The Racetrack" and Hunter Mountain which are a good five or six hour drive North of Barker Ranch. A lot of the roads out there are dirt and rock so it's very slow going on them. Charlie may have been out enjoying the Saline Valley hot springs, who knows?
ReplyDeleteThanks Patty. Seems like a safe distance to me.
ReplyDeleteMatt said "...The bottom line is if you attack anybody personally or act crazy, your comments will be deleted ..."
ReplyDeleteI don't know who said what about whom but I support the "delete uncivil posts" policy.
A lot of the time I don't go to certain blogs/forums specifically because reading lots of flaming tends to piss me off. So, keeping eviliz free of that is a very good thing IMO.
Cease2 said:
ReplyDeleteA lot of the time I don't go to certain blogs/forums specifically because reading lots of flaming tends to piss me off. So, keeping eviliz free of that is a very good thing IMO.
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Hear hear!!!
Matt, you are truly a class act.
I imagine that Susan didn't ask Charlie to get the knife because:
ReplyDeletea, she didn't know where it was;
b, she may have already been in bed when they took off recall she said that she "felt dead' and "almost passed out" and wasnt even sure if she had had sex with someone, possibly Clem, so she must have been in a state of very severe psychic shock;
or c, and I think this is most plausible: would you have wanted to tell Charles Manson that you had just left a murder weapon at a murder scene? He would have kicked her up and down the boardwalk, while calling her every variety of dumb and stupid. She must have praying Tex wouldn't tell him.