The forerunners:
Tex. Charlie put him in charge at Tate and he was also at La Bianca. Al Springer told police that "Charlie and Tex are the brains out there (at Spahn)." Furthermore, he is Ed Sander's choice for the job and was Bugliosi's early choice because it fit in nicely with the case he was building against Charlie. The Bug has since waffled on his pick.
Bruce. Bill Nelson argues in his book that "Charlie never did anything without Bruce." He was there for Crowe and Hinman, and may have also done Joel Pugh in London at the request of Charlie. He seems of all of the players to have been the least under Charlie's control, and more in control of himself, possibly because he was older and spent a lot of time away from the ranch. He is also rumored to have been allowed to wear Charlie's ceremonial vest. 
Little Paul. Right on the cover of his book, Paul claims to be "Manson's Former #2 Man." He was good at helping Charlie attract young girls into the family and with "hustling" items that they needed on a day to day basis. He claims to have taken over the family once Charlie went to jail and to have slept with Squeaky, who was Charlie's exclusive girl.
Bobby. He and Charlie had a love hate thing going on becaue they were rival charismatics. Gypsy and Leslie were "his women:" Leslie has commented many times that Charlie "needed" Bobby. Perhaps Charlie just preferred to keep those who he was most threatened by close at hand.
Squeaky. She is Panamint Patty's choice for the job. Yes, history tends to focus on the men, but behind every insane criminal is an even insaner woman. Squeaky dealt with the family's finances and held everyone's IDs. During an acid trip at Spahn, Charlie asked Lynette "What are you doing?" "I am holding on to you," she replied. "No, I am holding on to you!" At which point, everyone realized it was true, and chaos ensued.Who is your pick?
It was obviously Tex. When Tex was arrested in the Spahn Raid (according to the Spahn report) he was booked AKA MAD Charlie and CRAZY Charlie. Tex was obviously a pretty hardcore dude.
ReplyDeletePaul is just tooting his own horn, he wasn't shit. He was a delusional fool who wanted notoriety.
Bruce was obviously the best fit to take over in Manson's presence, but prison changed that.
I guess in the early 70's TJ had a following of people in Death Valley with a cache of weapons and food stored in and underground bunker. Can't forget him.
Bruce was 2nd till his disappearance and arrest. Then Squeaky took over management after Charlie was caught. Little Paul only thought he was second in command.
ReplyDeleteNo way was it Tex. Charlie wouldn't let him grow a beard and he made him sleep in a tent with Dean Moorehouse. I think he only kept him around because he was good at fixing cars. I agree with MrPoirot it was Bruce then Squeaky.
ReplyDeleteI think Bruce Davis also.
ReplyDeleteEven though he didn't
personally kill any of the
nine victims. Neither did
Charlie. He was older than
the others and I think also
had an influence over them.
I throw my hat in for Squeaky. She had Charlie's complete trust. She was the keeper of the ID's and she was CM's eyes & ears at Spahn.
ReplyDeleteBTW, does anybody know anything about truthontatelabianca forum? I was on there a short time, now it says "you are not allowed to visit this forum". I never even commented yet. The admin email admin email address bounces.
In defense of Paul, he founded the Death Valley Chamber of Commerce, was "unoficcial mayor" of Tecopa and gave what I think are the most comprehensive analyses of the personal politics that went on. Maybe he wasn't in charge, but he wasn't insignificant.
ReplyDeletePS Suze, don't worry about being denied access to the cat box. They are a very exclusive club over there. Becoming even more so as I understand it.
ReplyDeleteThe default answer, of course, is I don't know, I wasn't there. But I doubt they were the tight paramilitary organization that is popularly assigned to them.
ReplyDeleteOn different days, in different situations, different members stepped up and took the lead. Sandy Good, for example, seemed to be spokesperson during much of the trial.
The women probably had more power than what is commonly thought. If Susan Atkins were walking around with a buck knife, yeah, I think I would do what she told me.
This one is so tough because I don't even think Charlie had as much command as people think. This was a bunch of strung out kids playing cowboys and hippies. From what I can tell Danny DeCalro seemed to get away with anything and was a big influence on charlie. Even though he was not technically part of the Family he sure was around alot. I think we can all agree that Tex get the Enforcer roll hands down.
ReplyDeleteMaybe trying to make someone out to be second in charge is a totally artificial distinction, put on the Family later on by The Man? I like what Marc is saying - that Tex was the enforcer. Each of them had a role to play.
ReplyDeleteI do believe everyone did have a role
ReplyDeleteTex- fixed cars and bikes and got their drugs on burns. he also served as henchman on duty.
Little Paul- his job was to get the girls and keep them there
Bobby-musical partner, bringer of the women, and henchman
Bruce-Charlie's "i got your back boy" and henchman if necessary
Squeaky-took care of George Spahn while being Charlie's eyes and ears.
she listened in when the ranch hands complained about the Family. once Charlie hit the clink, Squeaky ran the show.
i really do not think there was a second in command. they all served certain purposes.
forgot AWESOME POST Patti!!!!
ReplyDeleteLiz, you took my answer. I agree with you. All of them were #2 in specific roles - Squeeky the admistrator, Paulie the procurer, Tex the bouncer, Bobby the alter ego and Bruce the wild card. Charlie was such a control freak he didn't want anyone with total #2 power. But I have always been interested in the group dynamics when Charlie wasn't around. Since he orchestrated most of the sex hook ups did folk go puritan when he wasn't around?
ReplyDeleteIt seems doubtful to me that even if Bobby and Tex hadn't been in jail they could have kept the Family together. Tex was to fried, and Bobby wasn't into the responsibility. And things fell apart fairly quickly even with Lynn, Bruce and Little Paul on the outside. So nobody really proved to be an effective #2. If Charlie Sheen had been around then he might have been up for the job.
maybe it was Grogan. he has proven the smartest in terms of getting out. i'm kidding obviously. but you gotta wonder how Bruce feels, being basically convicted of the same crime and yet Grogan has been walking around free the past 25 years, getting laid, playing music, goin to the beach. All because he gave up the body and the judge decided he was to stupid to have been responsible - sort of like that mafia don, Vinny the Chin, who walked around Little Italy in his bathrobe for years mumbling so as to convince the feds he was incompetent. Maybe Clem was a criminal idiot savant of sorts.
ReplyDeleteKid Charlemagne is dead.
ReplyDeleteThat would be Owsley Stanley, the highly eccentric counterculture figure who was the inspiration for songs by the Grateful Dead and Steely Dan... and who particularly inspired the Dead in all sorts of ways, some of them even legal. Stanley, 76, was killed instantly in a crash in Queensland, Australia after losing control of his car Sunday....
Charlie was an Alpha personality... He doesn't mesh with other alpha males- therefore he surrounded himself with passive ones... in almost all of the documentaries- besides Charlie- it is 90% the women talking, because the other men were mostly the quiet types...
I am of the school there was no clear cut second in command...
Suze said
ReplyDeleteBTW, does anybody know anything about truthontatelabianca forum? I was on there a short time, now it says "you are not allowed to visit this forum". I never even commented yet. The admin email admin email address bounces.
Ken said
You got the boot for coming here. KittyClump has done the same thing to others that have come here also.
They don't want people here going there, but they come here and snoop around. They ban anybody that becomes a member here. Some where, Liz warned new commers to sign up with a different name here to protect themselves to browse freely over there.
Ken, I DID have a different name. Not to be sneaky or anything, I just used a name that I use on some blogs just not this one.
ReplyDeleteOk, well at least I know I didn't do anything out of line. I like it here better anyways. A lot more lively and cheerful.
How come my first comment didn't get posted? You didn't like my Bobby joke Liz? :)
ReplyDeletePatty, I do believe it was Clem (oddly enough) who held onto the money and Lynn the ID's.
ReplyDeletetell it again, Ken!
ReplyDeleteThey let Clem hold the money? LOLOLOLOL
ReplyDeleteHey, this wasn't the Gambino Crime Family...
ReplyDeleteIt had something to do with Bobby being Charlie's #1 fella.:)
ReplyDeleteI think Bruce was the treasurer, and Danny the master of Arms- and one of the girls had to get her license for Linda- at least according to a couple of the books...
ReplyDeleteKen619 said...
ReplyDeleteHow come my first comment didn't get posted? You didn't like my Bobby joke Liz? :)
no i didn't even see it. maybe YOU deleted it. haha
as for the shitbox- my sources tell me they were recently hacked and now they are debating going private, only keeping certain members. so maybe they did go private after all.
ReplyDeleteGee, lets start a blog but not let anyone join!
St. is right. BRUCE was the treasurer, not Clem. You have to be able to add & subtract to be treasurer.
ReplyDeleteMatt- plus I hear Clem had alot of holes in his pockets lol- things fell out all the time
ReplyDeleteeviliz said...
ReplyDeleteas for the shitbox- my sources tell me they were recently hacked and now they are debating going private, only keeping certain members. so maybe they did go private after all.
Liz, I didn't tell you that I'm pretty sharp with computers did I
this isn't specific to the topic, but I have always wondered what was the "truest" or even hottest romantic relationship in the Family. Was it Charlie and Lynn? Bobby and Kitty? Leslie and Linda? Bruce and Brenda? Or did Charlie prohibit any two people from getting to serious.
ReplyDeleteThat Cumo (?) guy must have had some chops as he got both Pitman and Gypsy to fall for him and abandon Charlie.
Maybe Ella Jo and Bill Vance were the most enduring couple to come out of Spahn. Do you know Liz?
They are taking a poll of members to decide the next move :)
ReplyDeleteI am allowed on that site for whatever reason, so I can tell you personally- they dont bar everyone who comes here, and I have been very outspoken about Liz...
They never booted or barred me??
Maybe that changes now lol
That's what they were. A half ass crime family. However entertaining or likeable a fellow Charlie Manson may be to some people, he's not the kind of guy who should be making big decisions for alot of people. Some say he didn't, he only gave advice to something that had already been decided on.
ReplyDeleteThe drug burns, the auto thefts, the credit card frauds, the sexual freedom all got a little meaner, a little nastier that summer. It was all going to end badly as these things always do.
Juanita Wildebush found true love at Barker's...
ReplyDeleteWith a last name like that, it wouldn't be hard for her to find love
ReplyDeletealthough true love might have been hard to find what with the STD epidemic that was Spahn.
ReplyDeleteAnd Danny did marry Sherry Cooper so I guess that one has to count.
"Who was second in charge?"
ReplyDelete- twas 2 1/2 men - Charles, Bruce & Paul [rimshot/CYMBAL CRASH!]
Shy not actually being there at the time, fact various M Family members themslves have at least expressed diverse takes pecking order seems to affirm ambiguity - especially to outsiders...which just might have been the intent.
What with the reported manuevering for position by several folks, may have been more so an matter of who pleased/best served Manson most at any given time - specialization as per 'specialists' as it were. And of course, an Manson was expert at determining just what resource(s) each M Family member possessed.
Charles 'Tex' = the most prolific killer, Watkins = the procurer of women, Share/Good = spokespersons, later, Brenda/Squeaky same - i.e., all the aforementioned were 'best' at each. An matter several loose cannons - or an orchestrated team effort? Opinions vary.
Who can we eliminate (a bad choice of verbiage; who can we 'exclude'?)
Who risked the most: the killers.
On the other, who was the 'least' expendable and did not get their hands as dirty (as far as can be determined), beyond Manson?
Can we dismiss any touted as #2?
BB killed and he was incarcerated; whether one believes that his lot was the precursor to T&L, fact is he dirtied his own hands, even if via Manson's - "you know what you have to do", not Bruce who showed up nor Clem for example.
On the other, Clem went along nite of LaBianca, missed 2nd plan never materialized; he also did Shea.
Watkins? He seems to fit the clean hands proviso but I just can't see him being #2...pretty uninspiring, my take. Then again, maybe a baby face belied the truth & he 'was'.
T&L killers: if male & female were expendable, eliminates all of them (Tex, Susan, Pat, Leslie & Linda.)
Whom does that leave (beyond the several others we dismiss out of hand since they seem to be minor players in comparison?)
Bruce. Yet, he participated Shea, and Pugh as well some others were rumored.
Back to square one?
Or perhaps it was as a television show 'The Prisoner', where #6 was in fact #2 according an school of thought - but he didn't know it.
In the final analysis, perhaps it was all mere happenstance.
Which is to say; I don't know.
leary7 said...
ReplyDeletebut you gotta wonder how Bruce feels, being basically convicted of the same crime and yet Grogan has been walking around free the past 25 years, getting laid, playing music, goin to the beach.
Clem participated in Shea.
Bruce participated in Shea AND
Gary Hinman. Another reason Bruce is still sittin there.
leary7 said...
ReplyDeletethis isn't specific to the topic, but I have always wondered what was the "truest" or even hottest romantic relationship in the Family.
sherry cooper and DDD
yeah Liz, that is true about Bruce and Hinman...but he didn't seem to do anything at Hinman's so it just seems a bit unfair he does 25 more years than Clem. But I get your point. Though Clem was in the car that went to LaBiancas so couldn't he have been charged in that?
ReplyDeleteIs there an update on DDD? Last I seem to have read he was homeless in L.A.
That guy led an interesting life. i would love to know more about his crime life up in Toronto.
Well, funnily enough, the most insecure of them all, Susan Atkins, was the one most able to take on Charlie's persona and control the girls. She was weirded out by this ability, but I don't see it as strange, given her personality or lack thereof.
ReplyDeleteSusan had so little ability to connect I have sometimes wondered if she had some form of autistic disorder: this might account for her being able to take on his personality. Or she may have just been so hollow she could become anyone.
Panamint Patty said...
ReplyDeleteJuanita Wildebush found true love at Barker's...
yup with Bob Berry
leary7 said..
ReplyDeleteIs there an update on DDD?
i have a recent pic of him on here you gotta look.
I think Brenda had alot of say-so as you see in some of the you tube videos where the girls are interviewed sheis the main one speaking about important topics like charlies'vest, the child custody hearings, etc
ReplyDeleteSimon Wells has provided info on the Pugh thing to prove Bruce didn't kill him. The scenerio that Pugh was found isn't uncommon with people that commit suicide. It's weird, but so is suicide. I think you have to shake the cat litter off to read it. It might also be at charliemanson.net if you want to avoid the smell.
ReplyDeleteSqueaky was probably Charlie's #2. She mader sure never to get her hands dirty (at least until President Ford). Bruce came and went too often to be considered #2 and didn't Charlie make him stay in a sewer or something?
ReplyDeleteBruce - he wore the vest!
ReplyDelete