Ruth Ann
Dianne
Kitty
Scramblehead
We tend to forgive them because they were so young.
RuthAnn was what 14-15? She committed some crimes,
did some creepy crawling of her own. Couldn't wait to get her first PIG. But yet we forgive her. We still like her. We say we are happy that she turned her life around and became a mother to three children.
Dianne Lake never known to have commit a crime, only 14. We forgive her and still like her. Kitty was young too, 17. She never committed a crime. She was carrying Bobby's
baby so we can understand her drifting in and out.
She also is now a productive member of society.
But Clem, who committed some crimes, participated in at least one murder. He was only 17 . He went on to become a productive member of society as well. Until Brett outted him. Why do we seem to have such a hatred for Clem? How come we can't let it go, he was also just a kid. If Ruth Ann's burger did kill Dianne, would we dislike her the way we dislike Clem?
25 comments:
There is a lot to say to this, which is quite a challenge to do in a concise post.
The little girl in pigtails in 1960 sitting on the living room carpet watching I Love Lucy, is by 1969 a barefoot hippie with herpes sores, tripping on acid and stabbing strangers.
Sometimes I feel so sorry for them, and the parents who most likely did their best to raise them, that I forget the victims who were killed in their own homes in the middle of the night.
The Helter Skelter story isn't truth. Almost all of us agree with that. In the absence of convincing evidence otherwise, the simplest explanation is probably the correct one.
If I seem sympathetic with the girls more than I do the victims or with Clem or Tex or Charlie, it is because it is difficult for me to believe that girls are intinsically evil.
( except for Liz )
I honestly feel sorry for all of them....even the ones who committed the murders. Basically they were all kids, and even those who were a bit older were very lost. I myself did things at 15, 17, 21, hell even 25 that I wouldn't do now, but hindsight it always 20/20. No, I didn't commit crimes but I did stupid things that affected the rest of my life.
TomG said:
If I seem sympathetic with the girls more than I do the victims or with Clem or Tex or Charlie, it is because it is difficult for me to believe that girls are intinsically evil.
( except for Liz)
HA!
( sic ) intrinsically. Doing without contemplating the right or wrong. Naturally, without thought or regard to the gravity of the action.
Clem had a child molestation conviction, did he not? As I read someone else write recently, the way he touches the little blonde girl (Dennis Rice's kid?) in the Hendrickson documentary is more than a little disturbing.
Personally, I think it was wrong for Clem to be outed. Some folks have opined he deserved it because he was performing in a band, in public. I don't quite grasp that logic.
And yes, I do think if Ruth's hamburger caper had succeeded and resulted in Barbara's death, we'd probably be vilifying and mocking her along with Katie, Lulu, et al.
"Kids Will Be Kids"
- Charles Milles Manson too, once; compassion for Charlie as such? Or a matter of a guy old enough to've known better by 1969?
Who among the 'Family' had a worse upbringing than he if we accept an rap sheet & tales of woe his? (tho Bugliosi suggested things were not quite as bad for CM as he likes to make them out if we are to give VB any credibility.)
"We tend to forgive them because they were so young."
- of note, youngest members were (as the greatest portion Family) female, so perhaps a case sheer limited numbers males: what male of note beyond Clem was 'young'?
Maybe because none of the females (far as we know of) initiated any killings, only assisted (this was bad enough, my opine.)
"Why do we seem to have such a hatred for Clem? How come we can't let it go, he was also just a kid."
- part & parcel the inappropriate touching children (some say) & his indecent exposure be an difference perhaps... & the Shea deal too, my guess.
"If Ruth Ann's burger did kill Dianne, would we dislike her the way we dislike Clem?"
- presume you meant, 'Hoyt'? Yes, that would have made a difference in how she is perceived, my opine; murder would tend to reflect that.
A tale of two (or more) females, M Family and other.
1958: Charles Starkweather & Caril Ann Fugate: he was 19, she was but 14 whence she 'participated' in 11 murders if you believe him/others.
A jury found her culpable and not just an innocent 'young' thing as they did not believe her claim of having been held as hostage since she had many opportunities escape
(this at a time the death penalty was in effect US/Nebraska, as his 'hot seat' RSVP affirmed.)
I think of those 'young women' the M Family (some) who stated as much re: being 'held' hostage as twere, afraid to leave, tho others did so before and of course near the end, Lutesinger & Schram.
Back to the 19 year old he & the 14 year old she, he fried... she was sentenced life imprisonment, served 17 years, & then paroled. A case of gender bias? A midwest locale/sensibility more innocent era some decade earlier LA 1969?
17 years for 'participation' in 11 murders...reminds me of Leslie Van Houten's 41+ and counting/mounting for two murders (if we include Mr. Labianca, which we must.)
Guilt by associations... political prisoners... heinous nature of the crimes...
I think so x3 - yet the fact is in conservative '58 Nebraska boy/girl duo Starkweather/Fugate killed an greater # yet one walked aft time served: the female, the nature of their crimes no less repugnant LA '69.
TomG said...If I seem sympathetic with the girls more than I do the victims or with Clem or Tex or Charlie, it is because it is difficult for me to believe that girls are intinsically evil.
( except for Liz )
awww~how sweet thank you!
B.T.W ~i am a lot of bi-polar evil today and came very close to beating some one with a baseball bat today, who has owed me $60 for like 2 months.
and at this point in time i can REALLY use that $60. but then my daughter reminded me i would not fair well in prison.
Panamint Patty said...
Clem had a child molestation conviction, did he not?
what happen was, he was at a park or in a school yard and had a hole in his pants and his who ha was peaking out. i wouldn't call that a child molester. according to the police report he was just laying some where all passed out when it happened.
the charges were later dropped.
now you guys must really think my love has shifted from Bobby to Clem.
hippichick40 said...
And yes, I do think if Ruth's hamburger caper had succeeded and resulted in Barbara's death, we'd probably be vilifying and mocking her along with Katie, Lulu, et al.
i always wondered- did they actually intend to just get her fucked up enough to be incoherent and unable to testify. OR did they really want her killed, dead, gone?
you never know with those folks.
i personally think they wanted her to o.d and die.
eviliz said:
...and had a hole in his pants and his who ha was peaking out.
That's the funniest thing I've heard all day. Thanks, I needed that.
rfoster1 said...
eviliz said:
...and had a hole in his pants and his who ha was peaking out.
That's the funniest thing I've heard all day. Thanks, I needed that.
for you~anytime my friend! ;}
Clem helped murder somebody. It is my opinion that once you do your time that has satisfied the state, you're free to live abroad and unbothered. Whether a musician with minimal success is someone who contributes to society is up for debate. His bio is very questionable. He states that he was Hank Ballards Band Leader for 17 years. The time line doesn't work with his release and Hank's death. If he played with Hank Ballard after his release as he states, that means he would of played with James Brown also. Doesn't mention that in his bio. He's a liar.
I've always wondered where was Clem before arriving at Spahn's. I know he was living there before CM came around, but what about his childhood before becoming Clem? Is it written anywhere?
Ken,
Like Kitty, Grogan grew up close to Spahn. I know that he had a descent rap sheet as a juvenile for petty stuff, but like you I haven't found anything biographical (reliable, anyway) about his formative years.
I do know that by the time of his release he had fully reconciled with his family.
Matt, I see that you live in NC. I'm in Asheville. You?
We're about 2:15 apart. You can email Liz to get my email address.
Eviliz said...
he was at a park or in a school yard and had a hole in his pants and his who ha was peaking out.
------------
Yeh, right. Happens to the best of us.
I've always wondered where was Clem before arriving at Spahn's. I know he was living there before CM came around, but what about his childhood before becoming Clem? Is it written anywhere?
He was not living there but working there when the Family moved in.
His mother and father said Little Stevie stopped coming home at night after work when Charlie & Co moved in. He was underage and they reported him as a runaway.
I don't know anything about his childhood other than he has quite a few siblings.
Wasn't he living in the back house with a bunch of hippies when CM came around and then moved to the front part of the ranch afterwards? That's all I know about him prior to hooking up with CM and friends.
I also believe I read somewhere that his brother(s) were State Police officers.
I think there are 3 reason's most dislike Clem more then Ruth Ann: 1-she was a cute girl 2-Clem exposed himself to children & got arrested 3-the Hendrickson video of him with the little girl creeps people out
People seem to like to call Clem names based on what-- a 3 second film clip of him "touching" a girl? I find that a bit absurd. Word is that his charge of I.E. came from flashing high school girls. He was what-- 17? Doesn't seem so diabolical,but not at all right. Doesn't give people the right to out him and call him names like "child molester" and the other things that I have seen.
Snake had no chance, she was thrown into this type of lifestyle. I sincerely hope she lived a good live. I hope Clem has, and can. From what I am told he is doing rather well regardless of people outing him.
Hi.
I never hated Ouisch and Snake because they both had clowns for parents.
Charlie was a pimp first and foremost.
Poor girls.
I don't believe that we "forgive them because they were so young". Ruth Ann was 17 when the murders happened, not 14-15.
Clem actually participated in the intentional murder of someone, whereas I don't believe Ruth intended to kill Barbara with the large LSD dose. There has never been a case of a lethal dose of LSD. However it is correct that she could have been killed in an accident in the street, etc. If that did happen, then Ruth would now be judged a lot differently but still not in the same way as the others.
Post a Comment