http://www.tmz.com/2011/02/22/charles-manson-president-barach-obama-fax-attorney-saddam-hussein-giovanni-destefano-satan-pardon/
clink link to see the letter to the Prez
The Devil's Advocate Attorney Di Stefano says his
newest devil -Charlie Manson was nothing more than a cult leader, not a murderer. Manson didn't do the killings.
At worst he might be guilty of telling his followers to "do something witchy". Never specifying murder."
Wtf is the definition of "witchy" anyway?
Kinda broad, given the source.
Now we all know Charlie was not found of blacks.
He said the white women getting with the black men is ruining the the gene pool. Isn't who the letter is written to The President-one of those people from the ruined gene pool? I wonder if when Obama was elected, did Charlie
start preaching- "I told you they would rise up and take over!" BUT- It was "comin down slowly"
by taking 40 something years.
Kinda broad, given the source.
Now we all know Charlie was not found of blacks.
He said the white women getting with the black men is ruining the the gene pool. Isn't who the letter is written to The President-one of those people from the ruined gene pool? I wonder if when Obama was elected, did Charlie
start preaching- "I told you they would rise up and take over!" BUT- It was "comin down slowly"
by taking 40 something years.
the link above will get you the whole letter. here is some of the same old song and dance in the letter to The Prez. (Thanks to Stacey for the link)
“I have killed no one and I have ordered no one to be killed."
I don't recall ever saying "Get a knife and a change of clothes and go do what Tex
says."
Or I don't recall saying "Get a knife and go kill the Sherriff."
A day (or decades, four) late & a jurisdiction/several lawyers late.
ReplyDeleteTo my understanding there is not a requirement to report murders here in the US generally speaking, with few exceptions.
Of note, United States federal law addresses an offense "misprison of felony" as:
'Whoever, having knowledge of the actual commission of a felony cognizable by a court of the United States, conceals and does not as soon as possible make known the same to some judge or other person in civil or military authority under the United States'.
Even if this Federal law applied Manson's case, the punishment is fine and/or imprisonment for not more than three years and it has to engender active concealment a known felony rather mere failure to report said.
Charlie says he "never killed" and he "never ordered" and he was just a "reflection" by his own descript (a powerful telescope as it were, subliminal message upon the big screen of life, innocent as the driven winter snow; pass the vomit bag.)
Railroaded would be overstatement, but I agree Manson got no special treatment then, his defense.
Manson & the rest appear political prisoners ad nauseam/ad infinitum (legally culpable, if individually shades heinous incubus each varies.)
Here is something that has always peeked my curiosity though it has never been proven/disproven to my knowledge: did Manson/any other(s) return to the scene of the crimes at Cielo aft the fact?
If no, why the blood eveidnece suggesting body movement?
If yes, why/for what purpose?
Criminals returning to a crime scene is not unheard of but in this case, what reward?
To 'see what my children did' goes one claim- or was there some other intent?
To move bodies/more 'witchiness' (criminal stupidity magnified?)
A search for more money?
For more drugs?
For Sadie's missing knife?
A search for those 'videotapes' that were found by police aft?
Or maybe something else that was so valuable it would necessitate taking the chance of being seen/ discovered by police or others?
These be the questions that make the minds of men/women itch...
they can get Charlie on "hindering prosecution". if you know about a crime and don't report it you are pretty much equally guilty because you didnt report it. well thats what it is here in CT. been reading my daughters law books.
ReplyDeletebut you know ole charlie like the others i didnt send them, i did send them. i dont think he ever said that in court but all those interviews and books.
they continually screw themselves.
Definitely; the hindering offense can be considered with even wider latitude/lesser circumstance.
ReplyDeleteHere's one example recent vintage that affirms said:
http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/feed-item/it-s-all-illegal
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So Liz, did anyone return to Cielo your opine, or not?
part 1
ReplyDeletei think tex & co returned to the ranch, told what they did and went to sleep. charlie then picked brenda, clem and bruce to go back to Tate. to make sure everyone was dead. just in case there was someone still breathing that could snitch.
i also think that if charlie went to cielo and found everyone alive and well, he would not of tried to kill anyone in the house. charlie would have the fear that Tex & Co might be snitching on him so they would of left well enuff alone in case the cops were on the way.
part 2
we know charlie went back with i think clem, bruce and brenda. finding everyone dead as promised, they decided to make it alittle bit more shocking.
sharons body was obviously moved as you can tell by the blood smears on her stomach. i think they were going to hang her on the front porch (seeing her blood was found there) but maybe the sun was coming up forcing them to leave. will we ever know?
oh one more thing........always with me
ReplyDeletecharlie & co planted those glasses as a fasle lead. just like the hood/towel over Jays head. and maybe they did go looking for sadies lost knife as well.
I have never believed Charlie or anyone else returned to the Polanski residence following the murders.
ReplyDeleteThe main reason for this belief is Charlie bent over backwards to distance himself from any participation in the crimes.
It just doesn't follow that he would risk being seen, or bring potential witnesses along with him.
For What?
Then there's the timeline.
We know the murders occured btween 12:30 and 1am.
The paperboy rode up to the house around 5:30am.
After the murders the killers had to walk/run down the hill to were the car was parked.
They stopped at a garden hose.
Then stopped again to throw their bloody clothing down the hill.
Then on the way back to the ranch they stopped at a service station.
I would think in all it took at least an hour to get back to Spahn's........2am or later.
The killers began wipeing down the car and telling Charlie about the evenings events........3am or later.
After bragging about what they had done the killers claim to have gone their seperate ways to bunk out........by this time it could have been as late as 4am.
Charlie would have to have quickly grabbed up a friend or two to race to Cielo.
Arriveing at the crime scene between 4 and 5am.
Then throwing ALL caution to the wind climbed the gate and disturbed the original scene.....how long would that have taken?
This timeline may be all wrong but even if you start an hour earlier, this theory is still pushing day break.......around 6am.
And we know the paperboy rode up to the gate at 5:30am.......and except for the fallen wire saw nothing.
As for the horn rimmed glasses and the towel tucked under the rope around Sebring's neck or the presence of Tate's blood on the porch.......I believe you can thank the killers for all of it.
Tex,Sadie,Katie and Linda have never struck me as the honest type.
Whether Linda's testimony at trial or the subsiquent parole hearings of the others.....I haven't heard a cohesive recounting of the crime from anyone.
Although I don't think Charlie went to Cielo that doesn't mean I think he's innocent.
The murders were Charlie's murders.
I believe Charlie.....for whatever reason.......asked and the others to do it.
And the cowardly little freak has spent forty two years trying to convince anyone who'll listen he didn't have anything to do with it.
I don't by it.
Possibilities aplenty, Liz.
ReplyDeleteSo, the spectre of no honor among criminals to have considered that possibility original foursome had lied (such paranoia was a running rampant, everyone potential Judas to the Son of Man, as it were.)
So much for the adage 'the Family that slays together' & the chorus too 'always is always forever, as long as one is one', etc.
On the other, maybe you had to be there - 'there' as in 1969 AND an criminal - to actually have:
1) stomached a return such a scene described and affirmed later; non-criminal mind (mine) is unable to reconcile this.
2) refused to 'know when to say when' & enough is enough ("stop, I'm already dead") ... overkill, including an even more gruesome scenario considered/attempted.
Result of drug use, hatred and/or retribution some wrong done or as perceived, the one constant in it all: drugs: be it using, selling, buying or as raison, overkilling.
Wasn't it Tex who (according some) instructed on how to knife someone and do the most lethal damage? Yet it took some 102 thrusts eliminate four people? (oh, and the shooting & bludgeoning too we can't forget.)Why a need to verify the work such an 'expert' killing machine?
The extent via mulitple stabbings, gunshots & beatings might suggest the killers knew their victims as some claim as certainty, compared stranger on stranger violence; my opine they knew them (or it was a combination said and drug rage.)
A continuation their non-brilliant undertakings: they'd already taken two GH car$ to assuage the bikers, yet, repurcussions had either the bikers or an M Family member been caught driving a vehicle that had been signed over by a dead man not a concern. And then, said came to pass for BB.
If that was ok & the a need for $ was paramount, why not also steal other vehicles that night, Cielo? Perhaps by then they'd learned an lesson - so much so that they had LK come along because she had the only drivers license, or so story goes (no license bad, a slaughter of mulitple people, good.)
Yeah, I'm being a little cavalier & facetious - but not completely.
Evidentiary conclusion?
Sure, I can believe there was more than one trip out to Cielo if only because of supposition & the track record theirs as it were.
the "return trip" has always fascinated me. Has anyone in the Family ever talked about CM and two or three others disappearing for an hour or two that night? It seems a bit of a stretch that nobody would have noticed them taking off - possible but not probable.
ReplyDeletewas the gate at Cielo Drive still closed? Would they have had to scale the hill like the killer quartet did?
would they have taken the same car? did any of them have a valid license?
i need to go back and read the fundementals of the case, but my gut says the return trip did happen, and the blood smears are strong evidence of that. but a bit more cooberative evidence would be nice - an unexplained shoeprint in the blood or something like that.
excuse my ignorance, but the 'return trip' has always been a theory, right? It has never been proven or admitted, has it?
Thanks for all you info Liz.
For a long time I couldn't wrap my mind around why Charlie would go up to the Tate house. I sort of think maybe he wanted to see if they had done what he asked...
ReplyDeleteI also read about them wanting to hang Sharon's body from the front porch, and think maybe they went back like Liz said, to make it more gruesome.
sbuch113- like i said - charlie & co went to check. found the deed done, did the towel/hood, glasses and it was getting closer to sunrise.
ReplyDeletewho knows, maybe, because of the time- charlie dropped them off and didn't participate in checking things out.
maybe he just drove around the block and parked?
who ever went inside was lazy, like the first trio. didnt even search for drugs or money either.
the sun would be rising soon. do the glasses and the hood. thats it. they took off on foot. while charlie was waiting parked some place to pick them up. charlie always being the one in control, never getting too dirty.